[Closed] Flats curious, a few q's

No - but then I don't think I've ever done an offroad 30 miler ! (100' per mile though, yes, easily, more like 150'+ here in Calderdale)

Rarely snag a shin.

But I've used flats for years.

If you're going to try it I would suggest good pedals and shoes (stiff but grippy), something better than V8's and hiking boots.

My riding is more what you might call off road rambling, but with the odd bit of tech thrown in. Ideal ride is 30+ miles of remote Scottish mountain. I much prefer flats, but I think it's mostly psychological. That ability to get a foot down in an emergency and get started again easily is part of it, but mainly it's just going out in normal(ish) shoes.

I've ridden clipped in on the road bike pretty much since the first SPDs were released and have tried it off road a few times. But try as I might I can't detect this supposed improvement in efficiency. According to Strava my times up climbs are no better and I feel less confident coming back down (so tend to go slower), although that would no doubt improve with practice.

As roverpig has said, personally I don't notice too much of a loss in efficiency. All my mtb rides are on flats, I am much more confident going downhill on them and have done several longer rides (40+ miles) without problem.

The main problem in my opinion is that I have yet to come across a flat pedal shoe that combines the pedal grip and feel of a fiveten freerider, with good walking grip for the hike-a-bike sections, and good weatherproofing and quick drying. Moon on a stick perhaps.

Anyone use flats for long distance off road rides?

its the long rides that keep me on flats more than anything, I get sore knees and being able to change position and shift stresses is very helpful for me. Never been bothered about lack of efficiency. I'd be surprised if it's slowed me down very much at all, and if you take into account that I'm probably able to ride further and more often, the balance is definitely positive!

last year I went from using SPDs with stiff soled xc shoes and M530 pedals to flats and Terrex shoes. Climbing still feels a bit more effortful to me on the flats but I like them on the trickier stuff. I have been looking at the newer big flat pedals with clips though, curious to see if they offer a decent compromise.

My largest off road ride (natrual trails & hike-a-bike) in flats was 158 miles.  My largest trail center ride in flats (mainly Red) was 88 miles.  I don't wear shin pads - you'll soon learn how not to hit yourself with the pins 🙂

Get some decent shoes - I use five-tens but other brands probably exist.  I spent a winter switching between flats and SPDs on my turbo and didn't notice any difference in my results.  I did get sore calves and knees though so I've switched back to flats permanently.

Anyone use flats for long distance off road rides?

Sam Hill? He seems to get on ok.

I've never ever tried clipped in. With good pedals and shoes it makes a big difference.

I have never run clipless, always flats. I ride MTB (TR Scout) and have a Kona CX bike I use both bikes for commuting, long XC rides and 'Bridleway bashing' as well as trail centres and general bikey fun where I can get it.

I am 46 years old and my shins are fine. I use Hope flats but have used many platforms in the past. Yes I have scars from my youthful BMX days (beartrap pedals) and had the occasional slap from a platform over the years.

I don't compete and purely ride for fun but have never felt the need to go clipless. I have been lectured on the efficiency benefits that I am missing out on many times, but I don't tend to get dropped on group rides. In fact most of my mates are late to the MTB party so they tend to let me lead rides anyway. Not cause I'm any faster mind.

If you get the combo of sole and pedal right, you’re unlikely to suffer many shinburgers.  Personally, I found my shins greatly appreciated me abandoning V8’s but ymmv.   Five tens are boring and the predictable recommend, but they do take some beating as a flat pedal shoe.

Yes, it's no problem riding just as far on flats as you would on clipless. Shins? I've got just as many marks from spds as flats. The need for extra protection just because of another kind of pedal is overstated and likely comes from people just using crappy pedals and shoes.

my calves ache the next day though as out of the saddle all day perched on my cleats.

Sounds like you might need to relax a bit. Calves hurting sounds like you were holding your heals up? No need to do that on clips or flats, bendy ankles helps with bumps absorption too

I don't think that you need to worry too much about your shins with modern pedals / shoes - I have a few scars from my Azonic A Frame and skate shoe days, but Five Tens etc offer so much grip that it's much less of an issue. I still catch a leg occaisionally pushing up stuff but not so much riding.

I've yet to find a shoe that matches Five Tens for grip.

Yes, flats and skate shoes* for everything from short blasts out to 70-odd mile round trips to my mam's and back, with DH races and popping to the shops in between. Never tried SPuDs & don't really fancy it.

* which I use for general mooching about in as well.

The need for extra protection just because of another kind of pedal is overstated and likely comes from people just using crappy pedals and shoes.

Yep, that.

I have used flats only for years. And whenever I go out with molgrips, it means riding a long way around South Wales with a mix of single track and fire road stuff, and although it has been said that I might be more efficient on climbs with clipless, I have never felt I was on the wrong thing by using flats.

Well I've used both, and I find flats to be good for technical stuff of course but they feel far less efficient for longer rides.  I can't use the efficient spinning pedalling that I'd do on road because that requires pulling up on the pedals which doesn't work on flats.

The people who say they've never tried one or the other aren't really qualified to answer the question tbh.  I think that if you're pedalling on flats you're less efficient.  You might not care, and it might be worth it in the tech stuff, but I still think you're less efficient.

I have been riding only with flats for the last 9 years. Before that I used to mix it up depending on what and where I was riding.

And yes, done many a long day with flats.

I guided transalp tours from Bavaria to Lago di Garda or Lago di Como for three years each summer riding with flats. Anything between 70-95km and 1500-2500m of climbing a day for a week at a time. Never felt like I was missing anything. It also meant I could wear some funky shoes and walk to the bar in style... 😉

Oh, and even with 5:10s you can shin yourself. Done it the other week. Currently cultivating the scar by picking off the scab every other day.

Hasn't the pulling up thing been shown to be a myth? I can't recall the details but I'm sure there was some study that showed even top pros don't actually pull up. They do unweight the pedal on the upstroke but if I remember correctly there was no upward force being applied. I think any extra efficiency comes from the fact that the sole can be made stiffer with a clipless shoe. As I said earlier, I did a few (Strava) tests and couldn't detect any improvement in climbing times with spds compared with five tens, but that was using an old pair of "touring" shoes that are a lot more flexible than my road shoes, for example.

I am happy riding both.

IMO there are two things that SPDs beat flats for and that's the ability to have overshoes/winter specific waterproof boots when the weather is absolutely awful and at the other end of the spectrum is the well ventilated disco slipper for the hottest of summer days.

Waterproof socks and 5-10s are good but only if you have leggings that stop water running in and down the sock tops.

Flats are better for pub stops, get on and ride use and bailing out!

Happily swap backward and forward as the mood takes me. Whatever you can do on one you can do on the other if you're a normal xc/trail kind of rider.

I don't wear pads.

I used SPD since the 90's but after being getting back into biking I could not get on with SPD again. Just killed my confidence.

Tried flats as an experiment and would never go back to SPD again.

With some 5/10s they are great!

You can just grab the bike for a poodle around and just jump straight on which I like too.

Anyone use flats for long distance off road rides? is it just a “adaptation” to riding style that’s required?

Always. I don't like being attached to a lump of metal. I don't know if it's an adaptation, but my riding position is set so my weight goes through my feet with very little on the saddle or the bars (singlespeed).

I do find spinning fast on my fixed wheel can get a bit fraught, and I'd be better off strapping in for that, but that's the only circumstance I'd attach myself to a bike.

I'm also very sceptical of the benefits of clipping in for the average rider. Highly trained pros obviously get a benefit otherwise they wouldn't do it. I'm not a highly trained pro (just in case you were wondering 🙂 ).

Rode with SPD's for 25+ years . Been on flats for the last 3 years since I had hip problems . Nobody is winning Xc races on flats so I guess that they must be a bit less efficient . I have not become noticeably slower since switching and am still in the same place amongst my riding buddies . Five tens and Vaults for me and no shin damage as yet . The other thing that has made flats popular IMO is dropper posts , it makes such a difference to be able to drop your post even an inch which enables you to get your foot down in all sorts of circumstances . Negatives for me are the lack of a secant five ten winter shoe and the sheer physical size of flat pedals when riding through ruts , which are a common feature on the Isle of Man . Getting the rear wheel off the ground seemed like witchcraft at first but I got it mastered and at first I was pulling up on the pedal on steep climbs which meant that I just lifted my foot off the pedal . Hip issue is sorted now but I don't see me ever going back to SPD's . Long rides are no problem either .

I haven't ridden SPDs in well over a decade. I used them for a bit then twisted my knee in a crash and ditched them. The main benefit for me was staying connected to the bike over fast rough terrain, having your feet connected to the bike helps a lot with bike control.

I'm quite willing to believe that elite athletes can generate more power clipped in, but I'm skeptical that they benefit average riders much. I'd like to actually see some solid research showing the size of the claimed "greater efficiency" and also whether it makes any difference to endurance.

I used to do weekly 50 km to 70 km rides (20 km to 30 km riding on road to the hills, then 10 km or so off-road). That would take 4 to 6 hours. I can't go flat out for that long, so the limiting factor was energy stores and replenishment, not peak power. I don't see how generating more power clipped in will help on a long ride if you have to back off to 90% to conserve enough energy to finish the ride. If anyone can point to any solid research on this, I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I suspect that the supposed efficiency gains just come from an assumption that everybody should just copy what elite athletes do.

I ride both - SPDs on my singlespeed, rigid mtb and road bike, flats on full sus and fatty.

These days I prefer flats for mucking about but I do feel spds are more efficient for pedaling (happy to admit this may be placebo) and definitely prefer them for SS when gurning up a steep hill at max heart rate.

Flats can help improve technique, both by forcing you to work out how to lift the wheels without pulling up and by giving more confidence when manualling etc. However, ehen I first tried them I noticed I was dabbing at points where I’d have just pushed on through when clipped in, so it can maybe go both ways.

I get more pedal strikes with flats and I’ve had to get a boot dryer because Five tens are made of sponge.

having your feet connected to the bike helps a lot with bike control.

Just like a FS forgives dodgy line choices and weakness...

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edit- I added that smiley gif thinger in case anybody missed the fact I was trying to be funny with that quotey comment 😀

Anyone use flats for long distance off road rides? is it just a “adaptation” to riding style that’s required?

Yes and yes.

Maybe get some bike-specific flat shoes.

Hasn’t the pulling up thing been shown to be a myth? I can’t recall the details but I’m sure there was some study that showed even top pros don’t actually pull up.

Well I can only speak from personal experience.  I try and pedal in circles, and I use a reasonable cadence on road.  If I try to pedal like that on flats, my feet get very light on the pedals and hence insecure.  Not so much of an issue mashing up steep climbs, but when trying to spin in what I would consider an efficient manner, it's difficult. If you don't care about it then fine, if you are just winching up steep stuff then chucking yourself down it then it probably doesn't matter.  But I would not want to choose flats for a long ride in the hills for this reason. If your clipped-in technique is not like mine then also it won't matter.

I don’t see how generating more power clipped in will help on a long ride if you have to back off to 90% to conserve enough energy to finish the ride.

It's not about maximum power, it's about efficiency - getting more forward motion for the same physical effort.  This is why I wouldn't want to use them on a long ride if I was doing anything other than mucking about.

I think any extra efficiency comes from the fact that the sole can be made stiffer with a clipless shoe

I think this is probably a factor too. I use XC racer style SPD shoes which may help.  I also think that a stiffer soled flat shoe is going to offer less feel and control, so there's a trade-off to be made with flats.

It’s not about maximum power, it’s about efficiency – getting more forward motion for the same physical effort.

The point is that there doesn't actually seem to be real research on whether that is true. Lots of people say it's true, but it's not something you can actually know without doing proper research.

“If I try to pedal like that on flats, my feet get very light on the pedals and hence insecure.”

Sounds like you need to get better at pedalling, sorry.

The point is that there doesn’t actually seem to be real research on whether that is true. Lots of people say it’s true, but it’s not something you can actually know without doing proper research.

No, but in the absence of proper research, we can only go on our own findings for the way we ride.  And proper research often doesn't apply to specific individuals.  For example, if you pedal in the same way on flats or SPDs you are less likely to notice a difference.

I switched to SPDs after riding flats for 15years-ish, I didnt find any gains in pedaling up hills or notice being able to pull up aiding me. Although I took my BMX to the local racetrack a few weeks ago and to start with I kept pulling my feet off my pedal on the up stroke, not sure if this proves anything or just that I have become used to the motion.

I find SPD's good at the top of a run, so I dont have to wiggle my foot around to find the sweet spot on the pedal and also when trying to charge tech or rough trails as it stops my feet bouncing off the pedals or moving from the sweet spot.

With regards to flats and longer rides, I used to find my foot would almost feel like it was cramping during longer rides on flat pedals with my fivetens. If i was to go back I'd def get a stiffer soled shoe.

I've been mostly on flats for 25 or so years and ridden various distances and styles from 24/12 solo to downhill in the alps. I tried clipping in a few times but never felt in control on them, i'm much happier on flats, decent shoes and pedals are the key. Currently I am using OWN FR01 shoes and Deity Decoy pedals.

That's interesting, but it raises a whole load more questions.

His HR was higher with the clipless pedals but VO2 lower.  So what does that mean? Perhaps he is utilising more muscles by 'pedalling circles' but each muscle working less?  Not sure.  But RPE was higher which is also interesting.

Another thing to note is that is on a reasonable climb at a fairly high wattage.  I notice flats more whilst spinning along on flat or more gentle gradients.  I think it would be worth testing under different gradients and loads.

And he's still using stiff soled shoes for the flat pedal test which is not practical in real life.  But then, they weren't actually testing flats vs SPDs for MTBers. I'd like to see them do it again with 5.10s

I switched to SPDs after riding flats for 15years-ish, I didnt find any gains in pedaling up hills or notice being able to pull up aiding me.

I wouldn't expect that in your case, because you'd probably pedal the same way as with flats. I think you have to learn the pedalling circles thing, and if you've spent time on road focusing on efficiency you would.  I think SPDs for off-road exist because roadies came to MTBing and it felt weird and slow without them.  Or because XC whippet racers also pedal lots of road miles.

I’ve never seen any convincing studies showing an efficiency gain with clips - but there’s a ton of anecdotal evidence suggesting that riders are VERY good at convincing themselves that flats are harder work than clips.

Pulling up when pedalling isn’t beneficial (and rarely occurs) because the human leg is not built for pulling - millennia of evolution for walking and running has made them to push. People think they’re pulling up with clips when they’re actually just unweighting better - which can be achieved with flats if you have good technique.

in the absence of proper research, we can only go on our own findings for the way we ride.

This used to be the thing with XC suspension bikes and wider tyres. Nearly everyone believed that hardtails and skinny tyres pumped up super hard must be faster because they felt that way. Once people actually checked against a stopwatch, the conventional wisdom was found to be quite wrong.

I’ve never seen any convincing studies showing an efficiency gain with clips – but there’s a ton of anecdotal evidence suggesting that riders are VERY good at convincing themselves that flats are harder work than clips.

Or you're just good at convincing yourself that everyone's a gullible idiot except you.  If you are really reading the science properly you will look for flaws or things it doesn't address (as another scientist would).  You should not simply dismiss a large body of anecdotal evidence as people being stupid.  Something is clearly going on, but you need to devise the right study to find out what.

because the human leg is not built for pulling – millennia of evolution for walking and running has made them to push.

Your body has to pull the leg back every stride when running.  This is a similar motion.

Anyway - pulling up or unweighting aside - the shoe stiffness issue is real, no?  And not addressed in the GCN video up there ^^^

Your body pulls the foot backwards, yes - and you can absolutely do that on flats. It’s the vertical upwards component of the forces that I’m talking about being unbeneficial.

Regarding shoe stiffness, I ride fairly stiff flats and pedal with the axle behind the ball of my foot. I can see skate shoes and pedal under toes putting greater demands on the foot to support the pedalling load.

The audio field I work in is FULL of large bodies of people generating flawed anecdotal evidence to support their incorrect suppositions.

It isn’t that I believe clips have no advantages over flats but I do believe the power and efficiency gains to be very very marginal - worthwhile for professional competition but vanishingly small for amateurs.

You should not simply dismiss a large body of anecdotal evidence as people being stupid. Something is clearly going on, but you need to devise the right study to find out what.

I think everyone is in agreement here: the evidence for clipless being more efficient is anecdotal and the issue won't be resolved without properly designed empirical research. In the interim, the scientific thing to do is to report that we don't really know if clipless are more efficient, for whom, and under what conditions. Also, if people enjoy riding their bike, they should keep doing what they're doing.

I do believe the power and efficiency gains to be very very marginal – worthwhile for professional competition but vanishingly small for amateurs.

Sure, in terms of overall performance gain - but as amateurs we aren't interested in our times, we're interested in how we feel.  And inefficiecny can feel bad to some of us.  If you are one of these people then you've not got much to lose by choosing SPDs.

The only thing for the OP to do is try flats for him/herself, of course.  Since feel and enjoyment is all that matters.  I feel less efficient and worse climbing on flats, so that's why use SPDs on long rides.  I have been using SPDs on my big bike but now I think I will go back to flats there to explore some steeper stuff that I've recently found where I think there'll be a benefit.

as amateurs we aren’t interested in our times

Guess you aren't familiar with a website called Strava.

Forgot to add earlier.

I find flats to be far kinder to my dodgy knee, that and an Oval chainring now allow me to ride with virtually zero ache in my right knee.

No matter which spds/adjustments I made to them I could never stop the knee pain, perhaps as I was pulling up with the leg, who knows?

Guess you aren’t familiar with a website called Strava.

Haha.. you must be new here.

"  You might not care, and it might be worth it in the tech stuff, but I still think you’re less efficient."

I do aswell, I know again it's only anecdotal but I'm very sensitive to my power output. I never bimble and usually tend to ride at a given pace and cadence.
Riding a lap of say Cwmcarn, I'll be more tired with flats than clips. It's not loads but I can feel it.