[Closed] Finding and pushing your limit when racing

What will your hr sit at when pushing yourself on practice rides?

I just try to pace myself on how I feel. I did a road TT a couple of weeks ago and emptied the tank at the end so when I passed the finish line, I lay on the grass verge gasping like a fish out of water, still clipped into the pedals!

No don't ditch the monitor, but be aware your threshold will get higher with training.

I wouldn't pay attention to my HRM unless it was a 12 or a 24. If it's XC then just ride on feel / go full gas! 🙂

To be honest, unless you specifically train to a HRM and know your zones, your capabilities etc, then what's the point of it?

175/188/any other number are completely irrelevant without approximates of your maxHR, threshold etc...

VP - that doesn't mean you spent your effort wisely.

OP - go for broke to find out, or just push harder each race.

I ran my last marathon going for broke - learned that my previous pacing efforts were pretty good.

I don't fine the HR must use when I'm racing - can't really look. I do however ride with 10s power in BIG numbers on my garmin. I use this to tell me if I'm going too hard, not too soft. That helps.

But finishing "too fresh" is no bad thing. I've felt the same towards the end of the season and think it's a reflection of my increased fitness. It also helps with the 12 mile ride home!

This is for closed circuit road riding.

I try not to look at it when racing but still wear the hr strap and look at it afterwards...if you need to dig in deep to get over a climb and avoid being dropped from your group or push hard to stick on a wheel then you just need to try and do it, knowing your heart rate isnt going to help because you are not just pacing yourself but racing against others.

You need to work out what sort of HR you can maintain over a race distance. If you're fairly fit you might be surprised how hard you can push.
For my last couple of running races I averaged 94% Max HR over a 10K distance, and 91% over half marathon. For the half I stuck to 88-90% for the first 6 miles or so, then let it creep up into the low 90's for the next 4 or 5, and upto the high 90's for the final push to the line. I was absolutely exhausted at the end, but managed to hold the same sort of pace for the duration.
Try and work out your true Max heart rate and do some reading up on lactate thresholds.
My guess is if you comfortable in the 180s for 2 laps you could probably have maintained the same speed for the race distance, finishing at close to your max HR.

I don't use a HRM when racing, just a watch. However the way I see it is it's a race not a time trial.
So I just race to beat the man or for a position. If I'm ahead and/or pulling away I'll sustain that effort.
If I need to sprint or chase or whatever, I'll do what I can regardless of what any device says.

Just push as hard as you can, you'll at least learn if you blow up. You may not, a lot of those races aren't that long.

Thanks everyone.

It was only my second race and last year @ Gorrick, whilst I never used a HRM, I did lose a couple of minutes on the second lap whereas today, my forth and final lap was the second fastest.

Never tried to work out my actual max but I'm 30 so around 190 I suppose.

I TT a fair bit in training and am around 164 for an hours TT.

I chased a hardcore roadie the other day and egging each other on, I did hit 190. Highest I've ever had was 192.

My thoughts are to measure it but take it off the home screen at Gorrick next weekend and see what I can do by feel alone.

There were no hills today which made a constant HR much easier- I'd expect to need a bit more in reserve for a couple of testing climbs per lap??

I think it depends on the length/type of race. I was getting dropped like a sack of shit at a longer race recently, my HR was right up there and I made the decision I'd rather get dropped so "let" 'em go. I reckon I could have held on for a decent bit longer but finishing was more important to me, at a short course XC race I'd have just let myself blow. (it was inevitable at that pace!!) It's hard on a normal ride but you've got to let yourself crack a few times just to see what you can manage too.

I maintain if you can focus on a HR monitor readout whilst xc racing you're not trying hard enough.
I always pedal as hard as I can for every single section, be it uphill, downhill or flat.
If you blow then you've just made yourself stronger for the next one.

Death or Glory! 😈

@rollingdoughnut I wasn't constantly analysing it or anything 😉 I just knew the big 1 and 8 I could see out of the corner of my eye combined with the hyperventilation wasn't a good sign 😀

I like your advice though- next week, Death or Glory it is 😀

Death or Glory!

Corny as it sounds, I use it or rather 'Die Trying'

Haha you don't have to look at it when it's beeping like a teenagers mobile!

Always wear HRM when racing (road) but never look at it during the race, only go over the data afterwards. The only time I look at it during a race is if its a stage race with a TT so i can stay at my threshold for the TT and still be able to race later in the day.

Wearing a HRM without knowing your zones properly is a bit pointless as then you won't know your threshold for training at it. The 220 - age formula doesn't work for working out max hr - i'm 33, my max is 200 (achieved only in a ramp test). The fitter you are = higher threshold too.

@monkeyfudger Lol! On the Brecon Beast, I had to switch alarms off because mine beeped at me solidly for the first 12 miles 😀

@dirtygirlonabike Are there any good 'ramp test' methodologies?

Cynic-al: how do you know whether I spent my effort wisely or not? I got a PB, 26:46 for 10 miles. I think that's ok for a 45 year old woman doing her 4th 10-mile TT ever, on a normal bike, on a relatively rough road with loads of potholes, and no tribars, no aero helmet, etc.

I just knew the big 1 and 8 I could see out of the corner of my eye combined with the hyperventilation wasn't a good sign

So you slowed down, because that was a preferable outcome in a race to having a big number on an LCD screen! 😕

Just ride as hard as possible, find out if you really do blow. You're over analysing.

I just follow the lovely Fabian Cancellara's advice- FULL GAS!

Just ride as hard as possible, find out if you really do blow. You're over analysing.

Lol! If only you knew how right you were 😀

So you slowed down, because that was a preferable outcome in a race to having a big number on an LCD screen!

Grrrrr, so cross with myself- should have buried it and cracked on 🙁

It was a training race for next weeks Gorrick though....... 🙂

It depends a bit on the course I'd say. Gorrick like ones where you are sprinting out of corners, doing short sharp efforts and pinning singletrack, I'd say just hit everything as hard as you can. But if you find something with long climbs you need to find your threshold for the long ones and not go over it.

Of course there are't many courses like that, at least I don't know many.

Also beware of the start. When you're fresh, what feels like the right level will be well over your threshold, so you'll fill your legs with lactic acid pretty quickly. I learned this doing 10 mile TTs on my road bike with powertap. I'd set off all guns blazing then have to really back off to the power I knew my threshold was. 20 mins later that same power was pretty damn difficult to keep! I got my best ever time on a lap of Cwmcarn starting what felt like a really easy pace, I wasn't going for it at all. I think previously I'd been knackering my legs.

HOWEVER

In XC races everyone else is going hell for leather at the start, and you need good track position, so maybe just ignore all that 🙂

Depends on the race. If it is 90mins or less you should pretty much be able to go flat out and not worry if your fit.

I always use my HR, its my main measure on my garmin for racing. It's on the stem so pretty easy to see without distracting me too much. I also have various alarms set up for when my HR gets too high (in my case over 180. What you can push also depends on how your feeling / conditions etc..

And definitely try to work out your zones, I'm 35 and my max is 202 threashold is 180-185 though on a good day I can average 180+ for 90mins and not cramp up. Best go out watching your threashold, then if feeling great push it more on the final lap when the course has cleared somewhat

@molgrips- In my head I had the 90% rule I read about, which is- Accept that you're going to start way too hard at 110% so instantly knock yourself back to 100%. This too is unsustainable so then knock another 10% off your effort to a 90% level which should get you round the first lap and into your flow.

Not sure I quite stuck to it mind you 😀

I averaged 190bpm for Saturdays 10TT, 201 as I crossed the line (a bastard uphill finish!) I imagine that most of the people who went faster than me will have numbers quite a lot lower than that, so you really need to know what your own body does.

Back in the halcyon days when I was quick (sigh), I averaged 200bpm for a 2 hour Southern XC race. Anyone else's HR is irrelevant, and just because it's higher or lower certainly bears no correlation to their comparative speed.

Was giving numbers to give OP an idea and that the 220-age / 90% LT stuff isn't accurate rather than saying high numbers are important. Everyone is different

No worries- point taken.
There is no way I can average 175 for an hour in training hence why 25 mins of >180 got me thinking.

I'll report back after next weeks balls-out inferno 😀

I did my first "practice" road race today (a sportive taken seriously) based on having learned my numbers and doing a practise run last weekend.

Experience is very valuable, use that to help you judge. Last week I did 106k at lactate threshold and was a mess when I finished, but I finished. Today 137k under ltr which still hurt but on the last few miles I was able to get over the top the gears and take places before the end.

You live and learn....

See- I wasn't looking at my HRM at this point lol #cringe 😀
[IMG] [/IMG]
AND that was lap 4 😀

When I was racing I only used to look at my HRM data after the race, I set High level alarms a few time but the constant beeping used to annoy me. 😉

Last week I did 106k at lactate threshold and was a mess when I finished

I suspect that's not quite what happened inside your muscles...

Was giving numbers to give OP an idea and that the 220-age / 90% LT stuff isn't accurate rather than saying high numbers are important. Everyone is different

Was aimed more at umop's comment that he expected quicker people had a lower HR. Totally agree with your comment.

I did my first "practice" road race today (a sportive taken seriously) based on having learned my numbers and doing a practise run last weekend.

Edit, oh and OP, not sure of the best way for max hr other than hard as you can uphill, but i think the best way to find threshold is the standard Joe Friel 20min test.

Dirtygirl- this year has been about learning road bikes, riding in groups etc. I just completed the time crunched training plan and the sportive was my way of finding out my head/physical/bike ability. 85 miles in the Chilterns did that.

I have "proper" plans for 2014.

(Mol grips - would you mine explaining your "lactate/muscles" comment please? I'm interested? And also not sure you saw the other thread but cheers for the prior "don't load with carbs etc" advice a few months ago. I did the whole 11 weeks of the plan mentioned above with a small breakfast at 7 only then intervals at 11. 8lbs lost :-). )

No probs Kryton, it's not my tip, mind...

Now I only have a layman's understanding of this, and it may be out of date, I dunno, but this is what I think I know. The amount of fat you can 'burn' is limited by the amount of oxygen you can get to your muscles, so if you go over that power level your body will start to use glycogen stores. This needs less oxygen but generates lactic acid. Your blood and kidneys can remove this at a certain rate.

So once you have gone over this threshold (I think some people call it lactate threshold, lower lactate threshold or a variety of other things) you'll have at least some lactate acid in your muscles as it's being removed by your blood. Some lactate acid is tolerable but its presence causes fatigue in the long run. As you work harder you'll produce more lactate and eventually you'll produce more than your blood can remove and it'll start to accumulate. Above this level is sprinting, and that's why you can't do it for very long. I think this level is what people refer to as 'threshold' and above it is 'in the red'. The threshold (not in the red) is where you want to be (and will probably find yourself) on a long steady climb or a 10 mile TT. You can estimate where this is for you by doing a flat 10 miler or long climb and averaging your power, or averaging your heart rate for the last 20 mins of a 30 min STEADY effort.

I'm unclear on the chemistry so I am probably using terms like 'lactate' incorrectly.

That's a great photo.
It all starts to make sense the more races you do. I do know that whatever my finishing position I'm happy if I've almost killed myself with the effort. The couple of times I played safe I felt very flat afterwards.

I don't think you've quite got that right molgrips.

Ignore lactate for now.

There are essentially two kinds of energy production in cells; aerobic, ie fuelled by oxygen, and anaerobic, ie not fuelled by oxygen.

Aerobic energy production is what we do all the time, and is limited eventually by a lack of fuel.
Anaerobic is sprinting and can only be sustained for seconds.

Lactate is more complex;
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/lactate-and-lactic-acid-dispelling-the-myths

rollindoughnut - Member
That's a great photo.
It all starts to make sense the more races you do. I do know that whatever my finishing position I'm happy if I've almost killed myself with the effort. The couple of times I played safe I felt very flat afterwards

I was supposed to be doing this with Crosshair, but like you i found i felt flat afterwards, however not through lack of trying or lack of effort, but simply by being inferior to a vast percentage of the field.

Even the weekend before i was training with Crosshair at Swinley and he crucified me.... it demoralised me at the time. Probably playing a large part in me bailing on the event and doing FoD instead on Saturday.

Interesting link Crikey, ta. End result for us lot is the same though - going into the red increases fatigue very quickly, so stay under it if you want to last longer.

crosshair, here's some stuff about the ramp test. It's a useful tool to find your max HR and set power zones etc., but it doesn't half sting.
http://wattbike.com/uk/guide/cycling_tests/ramp_tests

Was aimed more at umop's comment that he expected quicker people had a lower HR. Totally agree with your comment.

I also agree with his comment, I was saying that I haven't come across many people with a higher HR than mine. 200bpm for 2hrs is nuts!

molgrips - Member
Interesting link Crikey, ta. End result for us lot is the same though - going into the red increases fatigue very quickly, so stay under it if you want to last longer.

That's the basic rule. I kept my HR lower than the week before for my latter/longer ride, and eased up on the climbs. There was a 35 mile flattish section which I then used on the drops at LTh to eat some time up. More (4 x cat 4) climbs at the end but I then found that although I was hurting I could really turn a gear on the last 2 mile false flat to the finish - took three riders on that stretch.

For me it worked superbly yesterday. And its this kind of experience I allude to in my first post - six months of learning about and riding with that knowledge has got me to the point I can biomechanically pace myself to a point, at which I'm pretty close to done but only on the finish line. Or it could have been luck 😀

Of course, there are other methods that work for other people.

MTBing is a little different, due to the difficulty in passing on many courses.

I was there too and will be at Gorrick next weekend.

Last time at Banjo which was my first short course XC race I thought about HR and I didn't go deep enough. This time I hid the HR and concentrated on effort. I never had any time to see the monitor except to check total time once when I was hoping I'd done 5 laps but could see I hadn't.

Previously I was drawing off my experience of bonking/going into the red on long events which is a false lesson. This time I went as hard as I could and harder when trying to catch people. There were some tech bits where I could recover. That and my training meant I improved 75s a lap but still have a big problem on the first lap which I intend to overcompensate for next weekend.

molgrips - Member
MTBing is a little different, due to the difficulty in passing on many courses.

Well yes, but you can choose your battles. There were several sections on the recent Bonty24/12 where you could do so depending on your strengths. For me, it was the exit out of the spooky singletrack onto the double track, and the last grass section out of the campsite into the small rocky "paintballing" section. I found I was able to get some speed and overtake / catch a few riders, whilst unfortunately some did the same to me on the clif climb.

Some top quality BS posted up above there.
How anyone can compare Pacing a short course XC race to a 10 mile TT is beyond me.

My only concrete advice would be to be careful what you glean from folk who write long posts with a lot of "I dunno" "I think" and other wee disclaimers.

Anyway, Ignore heart rate and power or whatever other measures you can display. I would take OldGits advice about "racing the man". You don't win races by averaging a certain heart rate, you win by going faster than everyone else. Race more and you will gain more experience in pacing.

I'd kind of agree with that. I've only ever worn my HRM for one race & that was the Mega last year.

As someone in their early 30's I peaked at 203BPM & average 186 for the whole race. I did some training before I went, and used the hill outside my house for sprints. Going as hard and as long as I could before, I could barely break into the 190's, and that was taking it to the point of heaving at the side of the road. Racing does funny things that sometimes you can't recreate.

I hope to do the Gorrick on Sunday, as part of my winter training for enduro. Never raced XC in my life, so should be interesting.

How anyone can compare Pacing a short course XC race to a 10 mile TT is beyond me.

I didn't...

Or at least, I compared their differences.

barrykellett - Member
You don't win races by averaging a certain heart rate

Care to give Dave Brailsford a call? Its been mentioned on here, there are different methods, not just works for me, or him or even you...

I wasn't comparing pacing a xc race with a road TT, I have done both types of event and I do realise the difference. The point I was trying to make was that you don't necessarily need a HRM, you can go by how you feel. Unless you're an elite racer, and I suspect the majority of STWers are not elite racers.
It doesn't matter what I try to contribute to these threads, there's always someone rubbishing what I say.

I always find that my heart rate automatically goes up if I'm in a race, even if I know I am going at an easy pace, my heartrate is always a several bpm higher when its a competition and once its up there, it tends to stay there through the race.

Thanks all. Will give the ramp-test a go if I get a chance.

I'm gonna record but not view hr next weekend and see what balls I've got. No more mr nice guy 😀

Can someone help me persuade Weeksy that racing is rewarding regardless of where you place- even against folk you know 😉 😀

Can someone help me persuade Weeksy that racing is rewarding regardless of where you place- even against folk you know

IT's not where i would finish in relation to you that would bother me as such, it';s the other vast majority of the field lol.

But it's more than that for me. It's more than just the speed/performance. MTBing for me isn't about the head down, pinned, max HR type riding... i've tried that, done that and even recently trained like that... All that does then is suck all of the pleasure out of the ride. The ride is about picking little trails you see a signpost for, picking different routes just to see where it goes, stopping at the top of a hill for a drink and looking out into the distance. Crusing along a nice flat section, just slowly pedalling and enjoying being outside...

When training for racing and obviously in the actual races, you lose all of this, all of this becomes just pain and power and performance.

Sorry mate, it's just not me.

I just feel guilty because you seemed up for the beast until our road ride...
And you seemed up for Gorrick until our Swinley ride....

I was mildly upset that Lewis stopped wanting to train with me, but I thought you were made of sterner stuff 😉

Do you not enjoy the new limits you find when racing? Even if you didn't train one bit, I thought you enjoyed the adrenalin?

Do you not enjoy the new limits you find when racing? Even if you didn't train one bit, I thought you enjoyed the adrenalin?

Yes of course, as you know, i'm a competitive person so i do enjoy it.. but not at the expense of the pleasure for the rest of my time on the bike.

TBH, the Beast was never hugely inspiring for me due to the ammount of road riding which as you know isn't my big preferrence. It wasn't the hardest decision ever to bail on the Beast.
I'll happily train with you mate, don't think for a second i won't.

I'd prefer not to race for Team Billy No-mates 😉

My training has ground to a halt now.

My training focus has moved slightly mate, taking in a lot more rowing at the moment rather than cycling.

Crosshair. I'm afraid it goes a bit with the territory of racing that you loose some ride partners as your fitness/attitude changes.

You can either choose to continue as you were or embrace the whole thing and see where you can get to in a few years. Over time you will come across all sorts of new friends both on the racetrack or off. You don't even have to be friends to enjoy their company. I spent an hour thrashing round a road track with a bunch of 16 yr olds at a race training session the other evening. Didn't really speak a word to them but enjoyed their company and attitude (turn everything into a race) immensely.

I'm hoping to get my xc bike in working order this week (have been doing some tinkering) and hitting the Gorrick xc race on Sunday. You start to see the same old faces and I find I always have plenty of chats even though I always go to these event on my own, as none of my mates are into them. Usually starts with the guys you park next to in the car park! (I failed miserably at playing it cool when Ant White once pulled up next to me, but within minutes we were discussing lightweight valves and the logistics of getting a sofa into the back of a van)

What class do you race?

Lol! I didn't mean to big myself up by my comments- I'm certainly not on the verge of going pro 😀
Only entered Fun Male this weekend and will make a decision whether to go Fun/Open at Crowthorn in Nov depending on how it goes- that's the one I'm targeting really.

To elaborate a little, I met Weeksy on a m/c forum which has a cycling sub forum and we did Maxx Exposure together last year. Since then, we've jostled for position fitness wise but lately I've had the edge which seems to have impacted the amount of events he's turned up to 😉 😀
As for my other friend- he was the guy who got me hooked on the Brecon Beast and last year we trained together most weekends. This year, once was enough to put him off despite me thinking I was waiting for him 😀

I don't really mind racing alone, it's just easier to keep perspective with another opinion to bounce off-of.

Maxx exposure (40 mile) was my first ever race as well.

First xc race was a Gorrick autumn series where I came 3rd in Masters. Thought I was a super hero in waiting so trained all winter then entered Super-masters in the spring series...

...First race I was leading by the end of the start straight but then whoooooosh, got passed by like half the field and was left contemplating my inadequacies as I followed their increasingly distant tyre tracks.

The rest of the spring followed much like that but by the end of it I was a much harder and more savvy racer and finally won a more local event which was nice after getting my arse handed to me over the previous months.

It get under your skin somehow.

Best moment was spending the final lap trying to break a fellow competitor that had been with me for a long while. Took the whole lap to whittle a 40m lead. One mistake and it'd have been all over, but I kept it together. That was racing for 13th spot.

Well survived the mudfest at Frith hill today 🙂
Probably not a fair test but needless to say I never had time to look at my HRM and I did hide it on the second screen too. Max was 190 (probably when running) and average 173. That's largely because I had a quiet second lap with no one around. Would have been closer to 180 if I'd kept on like the first lap I think.

Not sure where I finished yet....

Finished 02nd which is cool so better move up to Open for the next round 🙂

CX seems to push the limits a little farther 😉 Averaged 178 and maxed at 191. Again, a quiet last lap meant the addrenalin deserted me or else it may have been higher still.
Stamina wasn't really a problem- just not got the power to weight ratio I guess.

I've never bothered with HR when racing.

I just ride as fast as I can and try to keep up with whoever is in front of me. If I can't then I'll try to stay ahead of whoever is behind me. If I drop my group I'll attack and try to catch the next one. The only exception is when riding in a group is beneficial, such as a flat course like Sherwood or Thetford as you can get a good draft on the fire roads.

A quiet lap??? No such thing - it's a race! Full gas.

GB

I personally can't push as hard when I'm all alone as when I'm in a running battle. I never looked at my hr today either, just captured it out of interest...