[Closed] Finding and pushing your limit when racing

What will your hr sit at when pushing yourself on practice rides?

I just try to pace myself on how I feel. I did a road TT a couple of weeks ago and emptied the tank at the end so when I passed the finish line, I lay on the grass verge gasping like a fish out of water, still clipped into the pedals!

No don't ditch the monitor, but be aware your threshold will get higher with training.

I wouldn't pay attention to my HRM unless it was a 12 or a 24. If it's XC then just ride on feel / go full gas! 🙂

To be honest, unless you specifically train to a HRM and know your zones, your capabilities etc, then what's the point of it?

175/188/any other number are completely irrelevant without approximates of your maxHR, threshold etc...

VP - that doesn't mean you spent your effort wisely.

OP - go for broke to find out, or just push harder each race.

I ran my last marathon going for broke - learned that my previous pacing efforts were pretty good.

I don't fine the HR must use when I'm racing - can't really look. I do however ride with 10s power in BIG numbers on my garmin. I use this to tell me if I'm going too hard, not too soft. That helps.

But finishing "too fresh" is no bad thing. I've felt the same towards the end of the season and think it's a reflection of my increased fitness. It also helps with the 12 mile ride home!

This is for closed circuit road riding.

I try not to look at it when racing but still wear the hr strap and look at it afterwards...if you need to dig in deep to get over a climb and avoid being dropped from your group or push hard to stick on a wheel then you just need to try and do it, knowing your heart rate isnt going to help because you are not just pacing yourself but racing against others.

You need to work out what sort of HR you can maintain over a race distance. If you're fairly fit you might be surprised how hard you can push.
For my last couple of running races I averaged 94% Max HR over a 10K distance, and 91% over half marathon. For the half I stuck to 88-90% for the first 6 miles or so, then let it creep up into the low 90's for the next 4 or 5, and upto the high 90's for the final push to the line. I was absolutely exhausted at the end, but managed to hold the same sort of pace for the duration.
Try and work out your true Max heart rate and do some reading up on lactate thresholds.
My guess is if you comfortable in the 180s for 2 laps you could probably have maintained the same speed for the race distance, finishing at close to your max HR.

I don't use a HRM when racing, just a watch. However the way I see it is it's a race not a time trial.
So I just race to beat the man or for a position. If I'm ahead and/or pulling away I'll sustain that effort.
If I need to sprint or chase or whatever, I'll do what I can regardless of what any device says.

Just push as hard as you can, you'll at least learn if you blow up. You may not, a lot of those races aren't that long.

Thanks everyone.

It was only my second race and last year @ Gorrick, whilst I never used a HRM, I did lose a couple of minutes on the second lap whereas today, my forth and final lap was the second fastest.

Never tried to work out my actual max but I'm 30 so around 190 I suppose.

I TT a fair bit in training and am around 164 for an hours TT.

I chased a hardcore roadie the other day and egging each other on, I did hit 190. Highest I've ever had was 192.

My thoughts are to measure it but take it off the home screen at Gorrick next weekend and see what I can do by feel alone.

There were no hills today which made a constant HR much easier- I'd expect to need a bit more in reserve for a couple of testing climbs per lap??

I think it depends on the length/type of race. I was getting dropped like a sack of shit at a longer race recently, my HR was right up there and I made the decision I'd rather get dropped so "let" 'em go. I reckon I could have held on for a decent bit longer but finishing was more important to me, at a short course XC race I'd have just let myself blow. (it was inevitable at that pace!!) It's hard on a normal ride but you've got to let yourself crack a few times just to see what you can manage too.

I maintain if you can focus on a HR monitor readout whilst xc racing you're not trying hard enough.
I always pedal as hard as I can for every single section, be it uphill, downhill or flat.
If you blow then you've just made yourself stronger for the next one.

Death or Glory! 😈

@rollingdoughnut I wasn't constantly analysing it or anything 😉 I just knew the big 1 and 8 I could see out of the corner of my eye combined with the hyperventilation wasn't a good sign 😀

I like your advice though- next week, Death or Glory it is 😀

Death or Glory!

Corny as it sounds, I use it or rather 'Die Trying'

Haha you don't have to look at it when it's beeping like a teenagers mobile!

Always wear HRM when racing (road) but never look at it during the race, only go over the data afterwards. The only time I look at it during a race is if its a stage race with a TT so i can stay at my threshold for the TT and still be able to race later in the day.

Wearing a HRM without knowing your zones properly is a bit pointless as then you won't know your threshold for training at it. The 220 - age formula doesn't work for working out max hr - i'm 33, my max is 200 (achieved only in a ramp test). The fitter you are = higher threshold too.

@monkeyfudger Lol! On the Brecon Beast, I had to switch alarms off because mine beeped at me solidly for the first 12 miles 😀

@dirtygirlonabike Are there any good 'ramp test' methodologies?

Cynic-al: how do you know whether I spent my effort wisely or not? I got a PB, 26:46 for 10 miles. I think that's ok for a 45 year old woman doing her 4th 10-mile TT ever, on a normal bike, on a relatively rough road with loads of potholes, and no tribars, no aero helmet, etc.

I just knew the big 1 and 8 I could see out of the corner of my eye combined with the hyperventilation wasn't a good sign

So you slowed down, because that was a preferable outcome in a race to having a big number on an LCD screen! 😕

Just ride as hard as possible, find out if you really do blow. You're over analysing.

I just follow the lovely Fabian Cancellara's advice- FULL GAS!

Just ride as hard as possible, find out if you really do blow. You're over analysing.

Lol! If only you knew how right you were 😀

So you slowed down, because that was a preferable outcome in a race to having a big number on an LCD screen!

Grrrrr, so cross with myself- should have buried it and cracked on 🙁

It was a training race for next weeks Gorrick though....... 🙂

It depends a bit on the course I'd say. Gorrick like ones where you are sprinting out of corners, doing short sharp efforts and pinning singletrack, I'd say just hit everything as hard as you can. But if you find something with long climbs you need to find your threshold for the long ones and not go over it.

Of course there are't many courses like that, at least I don't know many.

Also beware of the start. When you're fresh, what feels like the right level will be well over your threshold, so you'll fill your legs with lactic acid pretty quickly. I learned this doing 10 mile TTs on my road bike with powertap. I'd set off all guns blazing then have to really back off to the power I knew my threshold was. 20 mins later that same power was pretty damn difficult to keep! I got my best ever time on a lap of Cwmcarn starting what felt like a really easy pace, I wasn't going for it at all. I think previously I'd been knackering my legs.

HOWEVER

In XC races everyone else is going hell for leather at the start, and you need good track position, so maybe just ignore all that 🙂

Depends on the race. If it is 90mins or less you should pretty much be able to go flat out and not worry if your fit.

I always use my HR, its my main measure on my garmin for racing. It's on the stem so pretty easy to see without distracting me too much. I also have various alarms set up for when my HR gets too high (in my case over 180. What you can push also depends on how your feeling / conditions etc..

And definitely try to work out your zones, I'm 35 and my max is 202 threashold is 180-185 though on a good day I can average 180+ for 90mins and not cramp up. Best go out watching your threashold, then if feeling great push it more on the final lap when the course has cleared somewhat

@molgrips- In my head I had the 90% rule I read about, which is- Accept that you're going to start way too hard at 110% so instantly knock yourself back to 100%. This too is unsustainable so then knock another 10% off your effort to a 90% level which should get you round the first lap and into your flow.

Not sure I quite stuck to it mind you 😀

I averaged 190bpm for Saturdays 10TT, 201 as I crossed the line (a bastard uphill finish!) I imagine that most of the people who went faster than me will have numbers quite a lot lower than that, so you really need to know what your own body does.

Back in the halcyon days when I was quick (sigh), I averaged 200bpm for a 2 hour Southern XC race. Anyone else's HR is irrelevant, and just because it's higher or lower certainly bears no correlation to their comparative speed.

Was giving numbers to give OP an idea and that the 220-age / 90% LT stuff isn't accurate rather than saying high numbers are important. Everyone is different

No worries- point taken.
There is no way I can average 175 for an hour in training hence why 25 mins of >180 got me thinking.

I'll report back after next weeks balls-out inferno 😀

I did my first "practice" road race today (a sportive taken seriously) based on having learned my numbers and doing a practise run last weekend.

Experience is very valuable, use that to help you judge. Last week I did 106k at lactate threshold and was a mess when I finished, but I finished. Today 137k under ltr which still hurt but on the last few miles I was able to get over the top the gears and take places before the end.

You live and learn....

See- I wasn't looking at my HRM at this point lol #cringe 😀
[IMG] [/IMG]
AND that was lap 4 😀

When I was racing I only used to look at my HRM data after the race, I set High level alarms a few time but the constant beeping used to annoy me. 😉

Last week I did 106k at lactate threshold and was a mess when I finished

I suspect that's not quite what happened inside your muscles...

Was giving numbers to give OP an idea and that the 220-age / 90% LT stuff isn't accurate rather than saying high numbers are important. Everyone is different

Was aimed more at umop's comment that he expected quicker people had a lower HR. Totally agree with your comment.

I did my first "practice" road race today (a sportive taken seriously) based on having learned my numbers and doing a practise run last weekend.

Edit, oh and OP, not sure of the best way for max hr other than hard as you can uphill, but i think the best way to find threshold is the standard Joe Friel 20min test.

Dirtygirl- this year has been about learning road bikes, riding in groups etc. I just completed the time crunched training plan and the sportive was my way of finding out my head/physical/bike ability. 85 miles in the Chilterns did that.

I have "proper" plans for 2014.

(Mol grips - would you mine explaining your "lactate/muscles" comment please? I'm interested? And also not sure you saw the other thread but cheers for the prior "don't load with carbs etc" advice a few months ago. I did the whole 11 weeks of the plan mentioned above with a small breakfast at 7 only then intervals at 11. 8lbs lost :-). )

No probs Kryton, it's not my tip, mind...

Now I only have a layman's understanding of this, and it may be out of date, I dunno, but this is what I think I know. The amount of fat you can 'burn' is limited by the amount of oxygen you can get to your muscles, so if you go over that power level your body will start to use glycogen stores. This needs less oxygen but generates lactic acid. Your blood and kidneys can remove this at a certain rate.

So once you have gone over this threshold (I think some people call it lactate threshold, lower lactate threshold or a variety of other things) you'll have at least some lactate acid in your muscles as it's being removed by your blood. Some lactate acid is tolerable but its presence causes fatigue in the long run. As you work harder you'll produce more lactate and eventually you'll produce more than your blood can remove and it'll start to accumulate. Above this level is sprinting, and that's why you can't do it for very long. I think this level is what people refer to as 'threshold' and above it is 'in the red'. The threshold (not in the red) is where you want to be (and will probably find yourself) on a long steady climb or a 10 mile TT. You can estimate where this is for you by doing a flat 10 miler or long climb and averaging your power, or averaging your heart rate for the last 20 mins of a 30 min STEADY effort.

I'm unclear on the chemistry so I am probably using terms like 'lactate' incorrectly.

That's a great photo.
It all starts to make sense the more races you do. I do know that whatever my finishing position I'm happy if I've almost killed myself with the effort. The couple of times I played safe I felt very flat afterwards.

I don't think you've quite got that right molgrips.

Ignore lactate for now.

There are essentially two kinds of energy production in cells; aerobic, ie fuelled by oxygen, and anaerobic, ie not fuelled by oxygen.

Aerobic energy production is what we do all the time, and is limited eventually by a lack of fuel.
Anaerobic is sprinting and can only be sustained for seconds.

Lactate is more complex;
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/lactate-and-lactic-acid-dispelling-the-myths

rollindoughnut - Member
That's a great photo.
It all starts to make sense the more races you do. I do know that whatever my finishing position I'm happy if I've almost killed myself with the effort. The couple of times I played safe I felt very flat afterwards

I was supposed to be doing this with Crosshair, but like you i found i felt flat afterwards, however not through lack of trying or lack of effort, but simply by being inferior to a vast percentage of the field.

Even the weekend before i was training with Crosshair at Swinley and he crucified me.... it demoralised me at the time. Probably playing a large part in me bailing on the event and doing FoD instead on Saturday.

Interesting link Crikey, ta. End result for us lot is the same though - going into the red increases fatigue very quickly, so stay under it if you want to last longer.

crosshair, here's some stuff about the ramp test. It's a useful tool to find your max HR and set power zones etc., but it doesn't half sting.
http://wattbike.com/uk/guide/cycling_tests/ramp_tests

Was aimed more at umop's comment that he expected quicker people had a lower HR. Totally agree with your comment.

I also agree with his comment, I was saying that I haven't come across many people with a higher HR than mine. 200bpm for 2hrs is nuts!