[Closed] FFS, just how visible do I need to be!?

I'll be gutted if it was a simple smidsy

SMIDSY isn't simple. Our brains aren't reliable.

I once pulled out right infront of a car at a roundabout. Why? No idea. I just did. I saw him, I saw him slam on and look angry.

Thanks for the explanation hora. [i]know the road/area very well,[/i], that could well have been the cause, familiarity can lead to complacency.

I wasn't on a busy road though, the driver really didn't look at all. I reckon they looked up the hill as they approached the roundabout, didn't see any cars so knew it would be clear when they got there.

Thanks for the explanation Hora, and thank you for being honest about it, but please leave this bit out next time:

In my case though the rider could have exercised abit of common sense. Trafford Park at rush hour is not a safe place for vunerable road users (or pedestrians).

It's just trying (even sub-consciously) to shift the blame partially onto him for [b]simply being there[/b], which is just not on.

You didn't see him, it does happen, you were aplogetic, and hopefully have learned from it, but it was not in any way shape or form his fault for simply being there, whether you think it's common sense to avoid that particular place or not.

Ride your bike at 4.30-5pm around the big Trafford prk roundabouts in Eccles then we'll reconvene.

long ride to get there from Devon, might not make it with all the other motorists not seeing me 😉

You're still trying to mitigate your mistake by blaming him for being there.

You've kind of explained why you didn't see the cyclist Hora in your thought processes above. You don't believe a cyclist should be there because you wouldn't ride there; therefore you were not looking for a cyclist, you sub-conciously wouldn't expect to see one.
It's a problem with a huge number of drivers; they don't see the cyclist not because they're not looking but because they don't correlate cyclist with road user, they're just not looking for cyclists. It doesn't compute in their thought process.
The answer is not to ban cyclists from the road as you suggest but to make drivers of motor vehicles accept responsibility to safely share the road by being aware of other users.

If you're in a solid metal box, a cyclist simply doesn't represent a danger to you... you can drive how you like and you won't be the one who gets hurt. People often act more carelessly when they feel safe from the impact of any mistake or poor behaviour...

Interestingly, the government put out a press release today stating that many drivers are failing to anticipate possible dangers... my main thought was that any regular cyclist can tell you this... it's endemic and feels like it's getting worse. I think modern cars protect the driver too well and insulate them from the outside world... put more people on bikes in fast and heavy traffic and get them to feel the fear. Then they might learn.

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/news/country-roads-deadlier-than-you-think ]'UK drivers are mindless' shocker![/url]

I hate the stupid yellow cycle jackets...I think they just give a false sense of safety ...

Seriously interacting with impatient road users in their 1.5 tons of armour whilst navigating potholes/crap road surfaces .... Would anyone actually sane do this 🙂

I do kinda get what horas saying.... the whole I've got the same right as a motorist blah blah is fine but the reality when it goes wrong is they get a dent and you end up dead....

My commute to work involves long stretches of the arrow straight A5 which contains a couple of dual carriageways. The alternative is tight twisty narrow back roads. I always thought the main drag was the crazy option but after tackling the back roads on a couple of occasions I quickly changed my mind. I don't wear Hi-viz (skint) but I do have lights.

It's about looking v seeing. Spend a week on a blues and twos course and you'll soon learn that all the reflective, flourescent, bright garish flashing gizmos in the world don't help if people don't see you.
Also, because you've deliberatley set out to make yourself seen by buying and wearing a whole wardrobe of stuff, your whole mindset is flawed.
Instead of riding in high viz and assuming everyone must have seen you, ride in black from head to toe and assume NOBODY has seen you.
Then you can ride in high viz and assume nobody has seen you which is the best of both worlds 🙂

all the reflective, flourescent, bright garish flashing gizmos in the world don't help if people don't see you.

Agreed. But it will help your lawyers if the tit who hits you tries to claim they're not guilty and try and blame you...

And people can see my flashing lights - they moan at me for it 😯

I don't wear Hi-viz (skint)

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons that you might decide not to wear hi-viz, but cost isn't really a very good one.

Here is the first hit I got for high-viz vest on amazon: £1.95 including delivery.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002MX4WLQ

If that is still too much then go on a (free) Sky Ride and they'll give you one for free. 😀

You've kind of explained why you didn't see the cyclist Hora in your thought processes above. You don't believe a cyclist should be there because you wouldn't ride there; therefore you were not looking for a cyclist, you sub-conciously wouldn't expect to see one.

No I think in some areas/roads it really is madness. As I've said- if you experience Trafford Park/Manchester its huge and very busy at peak times. Not busy enough to be crawling but busy as in everyone seems to be carrying alot of speed. There are alot of large trucks making deliveries and picking up. Alot. Theres also alot of bad driving. Don't know if it happens in your area? but on Friday teatime you always get silly driving on motorways/coming out of cities etc because people are stressed/want to get out at the end of a long week. Trafford centre can be like this every day at teatime. Daily I've seen car crashes and the occassional bent bike (rare). I used to go there to pick mrshora up from work but now I refuse to. Its just not worth the risk (and I am a normal, confident driver). To ride there, on those roads? Especially on those big roundabouts at 15mph when people are doing 40 looking for an exit and watching other junctions to time their on/off? Not a chance.

Heres the area from above:

[img] [/img]

Now. Its your right to ride on the road and why shouldn't you? On some roads though you do get a feeling that its hairy. So you stay fit, your eco, you aren't burning fuel and you have a right to be there but theres a real chance that one day you'll be dead because the risk is great.

I stopped commuting because I was sick of the near misses and the abuse I got.

A few STW'ers have ridden with me. I'm relaxed/calm when theres an issue with a driver. One of the last times I rode on the cheshire lanes before work a driver went for an overtake into a blind bend when there was a car coming the other way right infront of us plain as day- guess what? He decided he didn't want the risk of injury to himself or car and decided I should pay for his exuberant overtake. I just made it as I pre-empted/second-guessed the chain of events and anchored on/jumped the kerb. Even then it was at speed. I remember saying 'dont do it/hang back hang back' then shit shit and his wing/mirror next to my bars fast and very close right up the kerb.

If I'd have caught him I'd have gone against everything I'd advocated before on here (don't hit a car/don't hit the driver).

I'm not perfect- I made a mistake and it shook me up. Earlier theres mention of the ex-fighter pilot and taking in information in snapshots. That was me as I was scanning (and looked twice)- once on the approach and again before crossing the line to the roundabout in my car.

The driver I experienced had no care for me. I was in the way/holding him up for 20seconds so he lost his patience and I would have paid.

Last weekend in Chorlton (Friday rush hour) two cars piled into pavement railings at angles- an elderly lady and young woman both shaken up)- crashed very badly at c20mph. It looked like a high speed racing smash. Then the following day (Stretford- 9am)- Avensis, elderly asian driver and CRV piled up the kerb again at 90degrees. I thought I was seeing things. People round here can't even mind other cars let alone cyclists.

Why take the risk? Just not ****ing worth it anymore.

sounds to me like the guy was under the influence, or he'd forgot his pot noodle, that's enough for anyone to go temporarily blind with rage!

[img] [/img]

Should do the trick.

You've managed sexist, ageist and racist in one paragraph there Hora, as well as suggesting a vulnerable road user was at fault for you not seeing them. Is this a troll?

I'm beginning to believe they have seen me but just don't give a shit.

This is the case for me 99% of the time. They look, then pull out of the junction anyway, most waving a "sorry" before they've finished the manoeuvre, so they know they're doing wrong 🙄

I'm beginning to believe they have seen me but just don't give a shit.

They're only looking for things of similar size or bigger, I just think it's carelessness most of the time rather than any intent.
If a gap isn't car size, they just don't expect or factor in anything else.

Not a bicycle but shows the point well

Not a bicycle but shows the point well

most waving a "sorry" before they've finished the manoeuvre,

Heh...the guy in the VW even gives a little wave.

You've managed sexist, ageist and racist

Observation of actual events. You could mistake the first crash with two young men drag/racing each other from the lights then coming together. When I cycled up alongside and asked if all ok I was surprised at the drivers v the carnage.

I don't do racism cheers. Just observation.

I just think it's carelessness most of the time rather than any intent.

Yes, most people see car, then gap, then other car, without realising there could be something smaller in between. I think this is a phenomenon worth studying actually having done it myself. I'm not looking for cars, I'm actually looking for gaps, and I've seen one a few times then only noticed the cyclist on second double-check.

Riding on roads is not about me exercising my 'right' to be there in some kind of societal statement, or as a holier-than-thou eco-warrior smugfest.

I use the roads to travel from the place where I am to the place where I need to be, just like you.

Sometimes I need to get there quickly, just like you

Sometimes I use the most direct and quickest routes, just like you

Sometimes I don't, just like you

Sometimes I have to travel at a certain time due to appointments and commitments, just like you

The only difference is my vehicle is often a bicycle.

If you've given up on the idea of using your bike on the road then that is your choice, but don't begrudge others for it, and you certainly shouldn't be blaming them for being there when it is the actions of others putting them in danger.

Next time you see someone cyling on that roundabout, instead of thinking

"[b]I [/b]wouldn't ride there, so [b]he[/b] shouldn't"

and imposing your view on them, try thinking

"wow, if all these other drivers were a bit more considerate this place wouldn't be so dangersous for him"

That is what needs to change, not pushing the vulnerable out of the way because its too hard to make people pay attention.

"wow, if all these other drivers were a bit more considerate this place wouldn't be so dangersous for him"

As a fellow cyclist you'll see the familiar head looking down into lap as they check/type into their phone on a very regular basis.

A few months back I followed (I wont say sex or age) someone down Woodhead in the Peaks and that person took at least three selfies on the iphone. I know as I saw the person putting the phone out of the car twice with the screen facing towards the scenery then checking the results (looking down again).

Woodhead is popular with cyclists.

Then (as a driver) you encounter drivers who think as soon as they hit the indicator it means its their godgiven right to change lanes and everyone should brake/move/slow down for them asap.

When I was in Bruges alot of the outlining roads had dedicated mini roads alongside (and protected from traffic) cycle roads/lanes.

We SHOULD be able to share but we need Police on the streets not cameras and I'd love the Amsterdam system.

Its never going to ****ing happen here. Sorry bit ranty today.

I've not read the middle part of this thread, but I'm not sure Hora is blaming the victim. He is saying that given his experiences he chooses not to ride on certain roads or in certain situations, and wonders why others choose to continue to do so.

The only two people I know who have been killed while cycling both died on 70mph dual carriageways, twenty years apart. I just don't ride on those kind of roads, I think it is too risky, in the same way I don't feel safe enough to ride a black run at a trail centre.

I do continue to ride on the roads I do feel safe enough on, though until driver training, policing and sentencing are made fit for purpose I will keep using lights and bright clothing to try and help idiot drivers see me. Because I am not absolutely 100% perfect, and some days I'm the idiot driver.

Exactly.

I've not read the middle part of this thread, but I'm not sure Hora is blaming the victim

Well i'll summarise, it was the bits where Hora kept saying

"I didn't see him, it was all my fault, but..... perhaps he shouldn't have been there"

That got us all riled up, and it is victim blaming, even if unintentional.

It's a typical response, to admit fault, then try and mitigate it by laying some of the blame on the other party for just for simply being there.

We have all done that at some point in life, maybe not on the roads but at some point you've made a mistake, admitted it but then for some reason you still try and lay some blame elsewhere.

At some point it clicks and you realise that it was actually entirely you and you're doing it to try and make yourself feel better about making the mistake.

I don't want this to get personal, because I like Hora, and think this place is better for having him, he always comes across a decent honest guy, but right now I think he's stuck in the mindset of someone who sees no hope for our roads, his point is valid, that some places are dangerous, but instead of looking at how to fix it, he's looking at how to remove the victims from the danger instead of the danger from the victims.

It's not just Hora, he's expressing a widespread mindset in society, I don't think this is a concious effort to make things worse, but ultimately, long term that's what this approach does. It's driven from a genuine desire to protect people, but its the approach of the defeated who see no hope, not the approach of someone who really believes it can get better.

I do believe that, maybe I'm deluded, but I believe it can and will get better, not overnight, but it will.

I do a lot of voluntary work with a local cycling charity, and part of that is introducing and advising new riders in our area.

I often do advise people to be wary on particular routes, or to exercise more caution at junctions and roundabouts I know are a bit iffy, but if there is an incident I would still not blame someone for being there.

It's that point in the year again where commuter's start having to deal with the fact that summer has left us...

and apparently if you'd not had high viz on it'd have been your fault.

Now come on Al, I thought we all agreed dressing like a Ninja doesn't make it your fault, it's just that this threads OP get's awarded a slightly higher horse...

Actually following your thread the other day I did get [i]enthusiastically[/i] cut up by some cock in broad daylight, who had most definitely seen me, 3 Red LEDs, reflectors and bright clothing, but he still proceeded to try and "claim my road space" over a narrow bridge, only to swerve into his works yard 10 foot later... 'Tis simply the season unfortunately, changes in light, weather and driver's sleeping patterns mean a few weeks of "added excitement" on the commute... I am of course utterly faultless in all my road use at all times...

At the risk of soundling like an internet hardman, that sort of nonsense would have resulted in the red mist descending and damage to his taxi ensuing whilst i utter the words "ignore this then you f'ing c**t".

Yeah, I get the whole fight or flight thing, but the whole [i]"I'd have: Beaten him senseless/kicked off his wing mirrors/attacked with a D-lock"[/i] does get tired and we all know you're either a bullshitting, keyboard warrior, or a seething little ball of pent up rage... I sincerely hope it's the former TBH...
We all Gob off at them, and gesticulate a bit, but resort to fisticuffs? or Vehicle damage? Really? I got over those notions a while back, you're opening a can of worms there where your reaction to some witless bugger risking your safety results in you getting in trouble with the Rozzers...

On alot of roads - just because legally you can ride on the road doesn't mean you should (using common sense). Same applies to ALOT of A roads IMO

Sorry Hora but you are utterly wrong IMO, if I'm legally allowed to ride on a road then nobody has the right to tell me otherwise, attempt to bully me off of it or suggest I should be on some painted bit of pavement...

I get what you're saying but you probably aren't actually that much safer on a "quiet" road, you feel less intimidated by the traffic speed and volume, but actually A-roads (dual or single carriageway) tend to have better sight lines, lighting and wider lanes, Driver's on those roads have a better chance of spotting you TBH, cycle lanes are for kids and Drunks serving their driving ban aboard a knicked appollo, if you travel at upwards of 10mph you shouldn't really be riding on a pavement...

As for the fact that you've witnessed and been endangered by motorized ****wittery on the roads?... Welcome to the club, opting out of cycling and back into the motor for your commutes/urban journeys hardly helps issue though does it?

I do so love these threads...

........... but right now I think he's stuck in the mindset of someone who sees no hope for our roads, his point is valid, that some places are dangerous, but instead of looking at how to fix it, he's looking at how to remove the victims from the danger instead of the danger from the victims.

There's far too many 'good' fights in life that are worthy of one's time.
Alas, that time isn't infinite so you need to pick your fights.
Cycling isn't the be all and end all for a lot of people, even on here, they enjoy it but don't make it their life.
Simply removing yourself from the perceived danger is quite often the best approach to something that you can manage to do without confronting it.
You'll get similar posts on motorcycle forums, horse forums and even car forums, most people simply don't have the investment in the activity to get all political about it.

I've given up on the roads. Well from the perspective of commuting/busy times. The chap in the JCB who used his bucket to move me more towards the kerb as 'I was taking up too much of the road' (he didnt touch me with it just held it level then moved slowly across).

The lorry driver on a grim grey morning driving in black shades/sun glasses who almost hit me then the female rider 100m's ahead. I rang his company who were very good.

No I wasn't blaming the rider in my instance- just thought he was bonkers for risking being on that road at that time when sanctuary (even though most lanes are covered in sharps/and are short pointless) were only a few metres to his left (and safety).

I've given up riding on busy roads at rush hour.

Got a Sportive tomorrow 😯 hope its bloody quiet on those roads around Calderdale.

Simply removing yourself from the perceived danger is quite often the best approach to something that you can manage to do without confronting it.

I agree, sometimes it is.

But it is not right to then suggest that as a course of action in general for the majority, or to use it to justify/lay blame where it is not due. It's also not right to re-enforce that mindset.

It may not be intentionally blaming the victim, but it is, as it supports the idea that there was blame just for them choosing to be there. The choice to avoid the area may be a sound one, but that doesn't mean there is blame if they do choose to be there.

Good luck on the Sportive Hora, may the puncture fairy and mechanical monkey give you a wide berth and happy ride - have fun! 🙂

fourbanger - Member

You've managed sexist, ageist and racist in one paragraph there Hora, as well as suggesting a vulnerable road user was at fault for you not seeing them. Is this a troll?

I believe it can and will get better

I agree. Two reasons why I think this: A38 in Bristol going north from town, and London in general.

[i]Last weekend in Chorlton (Friday rush hour) two cars piled into pavement railings at angles- an elderly lady and young woman both shaken up)- crashed very badly at c20mph. It looked like a high speed racing smash. Then the following day (Stretford- 9am)- Avensis, elderly asian driver and CRV piled up the kerb again at 90degrees. I thought I was seeing things. People round here can't even mind other cars let alone cyclists.[/i]

mmmm interesting that you've only given the ethnicity of the 'asian driver'. Strange really, I'm not accusing you of racism btw, I just find it odd.

Elderly Asian- maybe I should have left it at just elderly. Or IC4?

I always give full description when I'm describing an event though.

Why are cyclists on forums so easily outraged? Look at the story not pick at the detail darling.

[i]I always give full description when I'm describing an event though.[/i]

Only when they're Asian though.

I'm not outraged, I just find it odd that you describe one person as Asian but don't give the ethnicity of others.

[i]Look at the story not pick at the detail darling.[/i]

That's not really how things work though is it, you can't get away with saying certain things just because they're part of 'the story'. But I'm not calling you racist.

Dunno, I wasn't implying elderly asians were bad drivers. I'd leave that to [b][u]YOUNG Asian Schumachers[/u][/b] 😉

No I think in some areas/roads it really is madness.

It's a problem with a huge number of drivers; they don't see the cyclist not because they're not looking but because they don't correlate cyclist with road user, they're just not looking for cyclists. It doesn't compute in their thought process.

This, I think. I reckon a lot of drivers see a cycle on the road in the same way they see other "obstacles" like traffic islands, albeit moving, but not [i]really[/i] moving (relative to them), so they are treated the same way as stationary ones.

Had one the other day: I was looking to turn right from the road I was riding on, into a side road. I moved over to the crown of the road, right arm sticking out at 90 degrees, so no real ambiguity as to my intention (lights and plenty of reflectives in place btw). I'm approaching the turn, and slowing (on the back brake, so arm still signalling right) Car coming from behind me, driver wanting to turn right at the same junction as me, comes past on my left hand side, indicates right and cuts in front of me right before the junction.

My point: This is exactly what you would do (as a driver) if I had been a traffic island instead of a cyclist. The driver wasn't trying to kill me, or make a point that I shouldn't be on the road as anon "road tax" payer, or scare me, or even save time (it didn't - there was a steady line of traffic coming the other way that we both had to stop for).

The kicker: The driver was one of my neighbours, I know her, we exchange pleasantries on a daily basis. She was apologetic and embarrassed when I (quite forcefully!) pointed out the dangerous stupidity of her actions, but I had to explain it in fine detail - she genuinely hadn't considered that she was doing anything odd, unusual, let alone dangerous, she was just trying to turn right and had "gone round an obstacle" as part of the move.

Now here's a thought. Would I look less like an obstacle and more like a person if I was shaped like a person, not a cyclist? The lights and reflectives are a bit Tron / Running Man and my head doesn't look like a person's head, it looks like a mushroom, what with the couple of inches of expanded polystyrene that's meant to save my life if a truck runs me over.

Maybe I'd look less like a "thing" and more like a neighbour if I was wearing 'normal' clothes and she could see my hairstyle rather than a ribbed plastic thing at the top? I don't reckon a driver would pull a similar stunt on a pedestrian caught in the middle of the road while crossing?

I always give full description when I'm describing an event though.

If you always give "full description", why do we have no information on the ethnicity of:
a) the JCB driver with the oppressive bucket;
b) the truck driver with the sunglasses;
c) the elderly lady last Friday in Chorlton;
d) the young woman last Friday in Chorlton;
e) the CRV driver who had the accident with the "Asian" driver?

Jesus wept. There really is a Batshit mental element on this forum of late.

There really is a Batshit mental element on this forum of late.

I agree. Creases nice and straight and starch on the collar please.

Of late? You've been here for years hora.

I do like the way Hora is being condemned for daring to notice other people's Gender/Age/Ehtnicity...

In future I shall simply describe any and all 3rd parties I observe as "The Subject" and elaborate no further, just in case I am accused of being a bigot for doing so...

Jesus wept. There really is a Batshit mental element on this forum of late.

You are not wrong there

Sorry Hora but you are utterly wrong IMO, if I'm legally allowed to ride on a road then nobody has the right to tell me otherwise, attempt to bully me off of it or suggest I should be on some painted bit of pavement...

You're deadright, unfortunately you may well end up dead.

I lived near the A19 for 18 months, in that time 3 people were either killed or paralysed on the DC section linking the M1 and Middlesborough in car/bike crashes (IIRC they were all TT's, or training for them).

It's all very well saying it's the car drivers duty to look out for cyclists, and 999 out of 1000 proabbly do. But when you're overtaken by 1000 cars doing 70 you're just playing a game of Russian Roulette. The drivers probably 100% in the wrong, but as the kids song goes "they scraped him off the motorway like a lump of strawbery jam".

Some laws protect others from you, some laws protect you from yourself and others.

If you always give "full description", why do we have no information on the ethnicity of:

I have a beard, when people need to come find me in the office they're usualy pointed in the direction of "the guy with the beard".

I don't get offended when they don't also mention that I'm white, have short hair, wear a flowery shirt, deck shoes, have blue eyes, no kids, co-habiting and like spaniels. Are they being dicriminatory for not mentioning the Spaniels?

People decribe by exception, you don't mention the stuff that's common/normal.

If I'm sat in an office full of men. How will I be described? Its just one of the things you pick up on and recall in a story. My extreme statement of asian schumachers was a troll but if you went to Hull I bet theres a moniker for certain drivers round there, Bradford, Glasgow etc.

In general certaint people on here seem to look for anything that they can pick at to try and win an argument because they can't make headway on the main discussion?

Back on subject. I love cycling. I hate <5mile journeys in my car as its not good at all for the engine. I've seen the immediate aftermath of a cyclist killed by a truck just 200m's from my office is now. The big pool of blood and the parts of helmet swept into the kerb.

I love cycling but theres **** all chance it'll get safer. WHERE are the traffic Police on our streets?

FINAL comment- on your cycle home from work tonight- see if you can spot how many drivers are glancing down at their lap or holding their phone away from their ear pretending not to be using a mobile/conversation.

I love cycling but theres **** all chance it'll get safer

I disagree, it's already improved in the last couple of years.

A long way still to go but it will happen, just not overnight.

[i]FINAL comment- on your cycle home from work tonight- see if you can spot how many drivers are glancing down at their lap or holding their phone away from their ear pretending not to be using a mobile/conversation.[/i]

Not the wisest of advice so I'll stick to looking at where I'm going and spotting hazards. It is Friday after all so craziness abounds. Two road users not paying attention isn't a great idea.

I disagree, it's already improved in the last couple of years.

I commuted for 7yrs from zone 2 to zone 1 in London and though it was hectic/a mind buzz it was predictable. Maybe Gtr Manchester- its unpredictable and has certain drivers who have zero respect for other humans?

Was that your FINAL FINAL comment then? 🙂

😆

Maybe Gtr Manchester- its unpredictable and has certain drivers who have zero respect for other humans

Maybe, I've not ridden there so will have to take your word for it.
Has it changed though? Any local groups lobbying for improvements at all or is it just degenerating?

Down here in the west country it's definitely getting better but slowly, same seems to be true in London.

Has it changed though? Any local groups lobbying for improvements at all or is it just degenerating?

Can someone explain to me why hora is being accused of racism???. He only said an "asian man"???? WTF, what if it was a FAT man??? ➡

OOOOOooooo would you be accused of being fatist??? 🙄

You get denounced here for anything

Here we go, Mohamed !!!!!!

That'll be me stoned then