[Closed] Farmer charging to use MTB on public footpath - Cardiff

Is it a "permitted" footpath?

As above, understanding the true classification is the only starting point. The local authority will be able to advise, once that is known what the landowner is doing can be questioned ( reasonably) and challenged if what he is attempting to do us unlawful.

The local officer of The Ramblers or The Open Spaces Society could advise

If this is legal and this idea spreads, I’m guessing that mountain biking could become very expensive or involve a lot of pushing?

1) I can't see why it's not legal.

2) It would only become expensive if you are always riding where you aren't supposed to all the time.

3) It's not a bad idea in some ways as by putting 50p in you're now riding on it legally which is a nice feeling.

4) It's opportunistic from the farmer, sure, but farmers round here aren't exactly taking it in. And this is better then blocking it and telling you all to **** off.

Tough one
Really, despite the farmers charge, I don’t suppose it’s really ok to ride on an actual footpath.
Of course we all do it at quiet times.
I suppose if he is charging you to ride on his land so that you don’t have to use the footpath that’s different.
Wonder what the legal situation is.

PS can you give a pic or a grid ref as I cannot figure out where you mean from your description.

I’m not sure, but according to Cardiff.gov website, it’s down as “Public right of way” under “Footpaths”. I’ll see if I can get detail or share a dropped pin to the location

Really, despite the farmers charge, I don’t suppose it’s really ok to ride on an actual footpath.

With the landowners permission, you could drive a tank up a footpath if you really wanted to.

51.5388801, -3.3078152

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

F - approach farmer, confirm that the idea is his and offer £5/10/15/£20/as you see fit for an annual pass and see what he says.

I should add that I’m not suggesting it’s illegal (I don’t know whether it is or not or, rather, the implications of charging to access land - liability, safety, taxation although this is not an area that I would expect to generate a lot of income) and the suggested fee is not extortionate. I’m mainly interested in views and how this could change mountain biking if it becomes commonplace. Quite right that we shouldn’t be riding footpaths, but how many here can honestly say they’ve never done so in a quiet, rural location?

That would be the owner of Garth Uchaf Farm. Had a chat with him while up on Garth Hill during lockdown, he's had a few issues with mountain and motorbikes racing around scaring his animals. He's not anti-bike but can easily see his point of view.

That whole area has become more popular since lockdown, I hadn't ridden up there until recently for example. I'd be asking the farmer, politely, why he's done it. Get a conversation going, find out the root reason behind it and see what we, as a group, can do about it.

That sounds reasonable to me, Towzer and that was my first thought. My next thought was if this extends, how it could affect mountain biking in general. I tend to ride routes that are generally ridden by mountain bikers but I can’t say that I know the detail of every bit of every route and whether they are all bridleways. I probably should, of course.

It's a footpath.

Prior to speaking to the farmer I would speak to the council rights of way team (*not the sodding ramblers) and ask for advice, and if you pm your phone no I’ll explain it. (Or if you read the Cardiff gov rights of way website you can maybe work out my logic)

Slippery slope.

Isn’t the WA supposed to be considering letting bikes on many more footpaths than now?

Thanks Reluctantjumper. I agree and I’m generally sympathetic to this farmer. It was mainly the legality and implications of charging in the wider sense.

Really, despite the farmers charge, I don’t suppose it’s really ok to ride on an actual footpath.

It's not actually illegal to ride on a footpath. What the ROW legislation actually provides is the absolute right for someone to walk on it. There may be other bylaws that specifically prevent it, but the general legislation does not, and it's a matter of debate about whether riding a bike along a footpath over someone's land even 'causes nuisance' - if a bridleway in the same situation isn't a nuisance why is a footpath any different?

And ultimately as said up there; it's only the landowner or their agent that has the right to say no. If they do as they have here it seems reasonable to me the agree to the request. If it's some busybody they can go and get stretched*

* I'd still avoid busy paths at busy times, basically rule 1

https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/campaigns-guide/cycling-on-footpath-trespass

So it's not illegal for him to do this as far as I see. You're basically paying to ride on his private land, like you would a trail centre. It just so happens that there is a public right of way there that consists of a footpath on his private land that you are riding on.

Quite innovative of the farmer TBH. Only thing he'd have to be careful of is allowing so many people to use it as a bridleway that you can then show the planning dept a historical use as a bridleway and get it upgraded to one. Possibly?

It looks like NRW and therefore open access land, in which case there is a right of access by bike if there is a pre existing tradition of access. Which it sounds like there is.

Edit: ah wait it's the first part that's not open access which is the bit in question.

But I'd still pay the 50p because it's a lot better than some.of the crap we get from.some farmers. And if you get moaned at by walkers you now have the right to be there.

Not that I've ever been moaned at around Cardiff mind.

Also, looks like a useful trail and a tidy descent. Must check it out 🙂

There's a few really nice little descents in there. The climb back up is the only downside.
It's always a good one to ride when it's sloppy elsewhere as it rides well in the wet.

The sooner we get open access the better.

Pretty sure that landowners don't have powers yo apply tolls to existing ROW arbitrarily, needs some kind of enabling legislation.

Ask.him if he is declaring it on his tax return.

I'd be surprised if it's legal to charge a toll without some sort of licence/permission from the council.

If he is charging, and someone gets injured, I wonder what the liabity implications are. He should probably be wary of that, but otherwise that doesn't sound completely unreasonable to me.

if it's an honesty box and you get challenged at the opposite end of the footpath to the box how do you prove you've paid, it there a receipt? just wondering, not advocating not paying even though i can't remember when i last had 50p or any cash in my wallet tbh, is there a card scanner too?

As motorcyclists we did that with a farmer in the early 80s, £2 to ride on a few fields, his plan was You were meant to use an envelope with your reg or name etc written on it.

I ride the spot a fair bit and the farmer has had trouble with motos and mtb's in the past as the field in question is usually full of sheep.

I've always walked my bike through and never had a problem with him. If mtbers can't push their bike for 5 minutes along a footpath then the fault's on them tbh.

There's also several other entrances to the wood so it's not like he's got a monopoly on it..

Provided he actually does some maintenance on the path I don’t really have a problem with it. It’s an honesty box so if it really bothers you just don’t pay. Or alternatively find another route.

Nice to see such reasoned and temperate comments. Thank you. Most, if not all, of the conversation reflecting my own view.
Doesn’t this need a more joined up national solution? Total sympathy with the landowner who is trying to be fair, I think and whilst I would be happy to pay, I think it opens a potential Pandora’s box (liability, taxation, multiple fees on a long route, proof etc). I fully appreciate that it may not escalate and could remain as an isolated honesty box for a landowner who has a genuine need to take action of some sort.
I presume things are different in Scotland with different access laws? How does it work out there? (I mean in terms of possible damage to land/fences and how the landowners are compensated - or not).
Ultimately, as is reflected in this thread, we need to be mindful of each other’s views (landowners/MTBers) and work together.
I’m not sure that this is the solution on a national level but thanks for the views. Very interesting discussion. Interested to hear more views and whether there are any better mutual solutions to this issue elsewhere.

Thanks, Enigmas. I haven’t ridden that route in over a year and wondered if there were issues such as those you described that led to this (rather than simply responsible riding across that route). I guess my reason for posting are the wider implications. Like you, I think I would probably opt to pay or push (although never normally carry change, so this would need to change). It’s a shame to hear that there’s been irresponsible behaviour in that area - farmers have a hard time, I reckon (fly tipping on farm land has been featured a lot on social media recently too), so much sympathy with their side of this.

I used to cave a lot in the past and since many caves were not conveniently alongside existing ROWs it was almost the norm to have to pay the landowner a £1 or so to walk across the fields to the cave entrance. WRT liability, as a farmer he will already be paying for that to the tune of £10 million. Plenty of people claim for injuries for climbing fences or being injured by animals while miles from foot paths. I doubt the risk of being sued are any greater just because of a fee having been paid. Personally, as a farmer, mountain biker, out doorsy person and someone who has travelled a lot, I would love to see a more open access, with more responsible shared use of the countryside. I do know most of my colleagues are not quite so broad minded 🙂

I presume things are different in Scotland with different access laws? How does it work out there? (I mean in terms of possible damage to land/fences and how the landowners are compensated – or not).

I was given a hard time by a farmer in Scotland as I was about to set off up a path that had been made by people following some idiot's GPS track that went up the side of a hill and then clambered over a fence half-way up the mountainside.

He said he had spent thousands of pounds on repairing said fence, no compensation.

I think he could have just put up a laminated sign pointing to the sensible route up.

(To be clear, it wasn't *me* who had damaged the fence).

I ride the spot a fair bit and the farmer has had trouble with motos and mtb’s in the past as the field in question is usually full of sheep.

I’ve always walked my bike through and never had a problem with him. If mtbers can’t push their bike for 5 minutes along a footpath then the fault’s on them tbh

That's how I got chatting to him on Garth Hill, he was tending to his cows up there and I stopped short of them and asked him if they were pregnant or not. He was surprised to hear me ask until I explained I was a country boy so knew to be careful round farm animals in the spring. That's how I found out he'd had issues before. He said if they were pregnant he kept the cows off the tops.

I’m not sure that this is the solution on a national level but thanks for the views. Very interesting discussion. Interested to hear more views and whether there are any better mutual solutions to this issue elsewhere.

I know some of the farmers round where I grew up (Crickhowell area) would, and still do AFAIK, keep some of their animals away from the walker spots during the holiday seasons and when the Walking Festival is on as they have lost animals to shock and them jumping down and injuring themselves. It's surprising how many people really don't understand that the 'countryside' is a working environment, not a free-for-all for the town folk to use as a giant theme park. @welshfarmer will no doubt have a few stories to tell from his area or even know of local solutions to him?

I was given a hard time by a farmer in Scotland as I was about to set off up a path that had been made by people following some idiot’s GPS track that went up the side of a hill and then clambered over a fence half-way up the mountainside.

He said he had spent thousands of pounds on repairing said fence, no compensation.

I think he could have just put up a laminated sign pointing to the sensible route up.

Or, you know, a gate.

Or, you know, a gate.

Why should the farmer install a gate to accommodate some folk who just happen to want to go that way?

Why should the farmer install a gate to accommodate some folk who just happen to want to go that way?

To save himself thousands of pounds in fence repairs?

A sign pointing to an alternative route would certainly be cheaper.

I'd consider paying for access to areas not normally accessible, if I thought it was worth it. Would not pay for that footpath though, would just ride it if necessary, or avoid if convenient.

To save himself thousands of pounds in fence repairs?

A sign pointing to an alternative route would certainly be cheaper.

Hold on. The original post said

I was given a hard time by a farmer in Scotland as I was about to set off up a path that had been made by people following some idiot’s GPS track that went up the side of a hill and then clambered over a fence half-way up the mountainside.

That suggest to me someone had created some random GPS track that others decided to follow and you think the farmer should install a gate to facilitate that route?

If there's any legalities regards riding on the footpath, you could just ride a bit to the side of it 😉 Farmer still gets his money.
Or offer to pay him more money and / or help him build a sick trail away from the footpath! Could be the beginning of a Bike Park if farmers are earning eff all from farming. Slap a tea shop in a barn. Job done!

As I understand it: a public footpath gives you the right to walk there, but not ride. So if you ride there you are trespassing the same as if you are walking where there is no public footpath. However, you can ride anywhere where the landowner gives you permission, which he is doing (as is his right) via the 50p box.

This means that you can also race on footpaths, but you cannot race on bridleways because there is an old (1880?) law that prohibits racing on bridleways explicitly. Obviously not aimed at 21st century cycling events but the wording is such that it does ban it inadvertently. AFAIK.

In a similar vein the Bathurst Estate in Gloucestershire has an extensive public footpath infrastructure. What’s notable is the blue signs ‘allowing’ walking between certain hours but also permits horse riders to use the footpaths but not cyclists. I make a point of riding outside the hours given the illegality of the signs.

no, i wouldn't pay. if he's had problems with motorbikes he needs to get them sorted = police. i don't ride a motorbike. if he wants to put up no cycling signs i'll carry the f'ing bike if i have to but we're not causing any more nuisance than a walker and arguably less damage. it also gives him a revenue stream and therefore a reason to oppose open access. it's BS. f off.

@molgrips, sort of but also read my link above yours. Trespass is a civil offence and limited to I think damages caused - either physical damage to land which is hard to justify for the impact of a tyre track vs a footprint or damages caused by 'nuisance' which is where if a bike on a bridleway isn't a nuisance then why should it be on a footpath?

damages caused by ‘nuisance’ which is where if a bike on a bridleway isn’t a nuisance then why should it be on a footpath?

That one is more subjective and more open to argument of what does and does not constitute a nuisance. Much the same as one person's loud music for them = a great party whereas for everyone else it = a nuisance...

A farmer could fairly reasonably argue that the speed of a bicycle going past livestock / other path users does indeed constitute a nuisance although again, it's hard to prove either way. And it falls slightly flat if the farmer uses that path to access the fields by (say) a quad bike. While the farmer is legally allowed to drive whatever he wants on his land, he'd have a hard time specifically stating No Bicycles if he's regularly driving a quad or Landie across it.

Edit: actually I know the path in question. I was riding it in late 90's when I was at uni in Cardiff. We used to go up the Garth pretty regularly. Only issue we ever had up there was the bastard hunt who on the two occasions we met them caused serious problems both times.

article from the ctc Is cycling on a footpath a trespass?