[Closed] Evans cycles MK ride-it cancelled? Council or lack of sales?

[i]You are welcome to use our GPX route files (attached is the Long Route which is the only one we have produced that is entirely on Public Bridleways ) as a guide for your own mountain bike adventure in this area.[/i]

Basically, "Why don;t you all turn up and do the ride anyway?" 🙂

They only need to put the Sportive feed stations near the mtb route and all you'd be missing would be the direction arrows...

what council forms they are supposed to have in place three months prior to the event

Basically, "Why don;t you all turn up and do the ride anyway?"

It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.
If Evans had simply posted a route and given a date, like a sort of rural critical mass, I doubt they would get many people turn up.
Now that they have taken money off people for a proper organised event, my guess is that a lot of those people will still turn up and ride, even though they have had their money refunded and there is no longer an event as such.

I was booked on this with a mate, both somewhat cheesed off. We live in Bedfordshire and are continually frustrated with the few bridleways available, or landowners making routes difficult with access. We were discussing on sundays ride how the govt try to promote healthy lifestyles but without support from nimby local govt depts. its pointless. I've ridden in other counties/areas where your very much welcomed onto the trails.....even walkers met with a cheery hello.

The FC seem to be the same miserable lot in Beds too, cutting off a substantial section of singletrack in Rowney Warren (Chicksands)for "Conservation" only bikes mind nobody else, would love to know what they are conserving.....probably the 750K plus houses nearby I would guess.

We are intending to still ride the route on sunday too, GPX file downloaded. 8)

Hi Guys,

I work closely with Dean and the RideIt! guys, Dean has asked me to post the following up:

Hi guys.
Thanks for your comments.
I’d just like to clear up a few points.

We had more entries than last year which is why we sold the event out last week.
The Nottingham event was cancelled due to requests we couldn’t fulfil by the Ambulance service, not the council who were fine with the event.

Over the past few years the amount of red tape and forms to fill in has escalated. When we started running events no one really needed to know, we just informed the Police and that was it. Now each council/county has what’s known as a safety advisory group ( SAG) which you can submit information to ( Although this is not a legal requirement) and they distribute that info to all interested parties like Police, Highways, Ambulance service etc. Or that’s the theory. They are not a standard format and vary between counties, some are officially run, some just say “Thanks for the info, we’ll get back to you if there is a problem” Some say they will pass on information and don’t ( Like Nottingham) Some counties/areas don’t even have then, like Bedfordshire when we started the process for this event. ( Buckinghamshire/MK have an SAG and we submitted plans to them with no come back)

Now times all of the above by the fact that you need to do this for each one your ride goes through, there are 16 of these SAGs in Kent for instance, and you can see what a huge task that “Officially” organising an event entails.

Then you need to try and contact other interested parties like the Forestry Commission who will charge you for every rider that passes over their land – Box Hill is approx.. £2 per rider so 1000 riders will land you with a £2000 fee.

In the case of MK, Bedfordshire Council were copied into emails with Bedfordshire Estates over a month ago and knew about our event then. They only insisted on all the conditions last Friday when it became obvious that we were going to go ahead with event. I reiterate – this is the first time that a council has asked for these conditions, most are really happy to have events as it’s part of their remit to get people out in the countryside and we help with this.

Thanks
Dean

Was the problem with Bedford Borough or Central Beds?

Bedford seem to be really pushing cycling at the moment women's tour etc, so odd if it's them.

rt60 said:

"Bedford seem to be really pushing cycling at the moment women's tour etc, so odd if it's them."

Mid-Beds CC only seem to be supporting and catering for road cycling.
One of my local council-owned woods, which runs alongside one of the bridleways on the MK Rideit route has signs banning cyclists due to the damage they cause, even though there's only a 500 metre section of singletrack, no jumps or such-like. The signs specifically state that MTB'ers should head for Aspley Heath (Woburn) as "that kind of thing is encouraged there".

Disappointing.

KM

The signs specifically state that MTB'ers should head for Aspley Heath (Woburn) as "that kind of thing is encouraged there".

If only! Exactly the opposite at the moment it seems.

"We have taken the decision to cancel this event based on the Countryside Access department of the Central Bedfordshire Council refusing to provide consent to use the bridleway network for this event. Late last week we were advised of the councils position and their view that holding such an event would require the bridleways to be closed to other users,"

Sounds like s16 of the RTRA 1984, I can't see any justification for the imposition of such a requirement on a sportive event - certainly they don't seem to feel the need to do so with a road sportive, very odd.

I also can't see any legal basis for the claim that anyone would need the consent of the council to use the Bridleway network - there's a right to use it, it doesn't 'disappear' when the council want it to!

I reckon that the sheffield marathon approach of F' them, let carry on and do it anyway is the perfect solution 🙂

I think I must be missing something here.

Now each council/county has what’s known as a safety advisory group ( SAG) which you can submit information to ( Although this is not a legal requirement)

It's a public right of way. Don't tell them, just ride it. How can they stop you ?

I don't get how the Forestry Commission are charging you to ride on a public right of way either, just because it crosses their land.

You could really **** them over

Inform the police 6 days before the event that you're planning to organise a protest ride at the councils limitation of your right to use the highways

There's cast iron caselaw that protest is a reasonable and permitted use of a public right o way 😆

^^ This!

Why do we need all this elf and safety bull anyway?

At any time, on any day of the year, i can get on my bike and ride down those bridleways, so why do i need a dull man in a grey suit to allow me to this time??

Id get on to the local rag too

Last sunday, Woburn was used for a large cross country horse event, no doubt the Duke made a few quid from this........

And why does the council feel the need to "shut" bridleways, that have perhaps between zero and 15 other "users" during the event, but not the local roads, on which the road ride takes place, and have 1000's of users, and an enormous speed differential too!

[i]Id get on to the local rag too [/i]

I think this might backfire.

There's a lot of people who'd see 'thousands' of cyclists riding either a road or off road route in their area as nothing but a nuisance. You only have to look at the Wiggle New Forest rides for extreme reactions to this.

I would question the legality of banning time trials/recreational rides from public rights of way, though.

as if to prove the point I just saw this on twitter;

[img] [/img]

Interesting reads, and some thoughts cover my initial reactions too about our right to access on bridal ways etc. I see the complexity that Evans Cycles go through to get these events up and running and see there trying to do it 'by the book' as not peeve local residents, so appreciate the efforts you/Evans are going through to put the ride-it's on!

The complexity of the council systems and variations is something that I think the government should sort out with regards to sporting events, they not only promote sport and healthy living but also the neighbourly social aspect which in most walks of like is missing these days...

What if anything can we do about it?

How can we help make these events go smoother?

I like your style, ninfan.
Combine that with kimber's idea and send out a press release.

"Due to the council preventing us from holding a non competitive cycle event, starting at 10am next Sunday at Point A and finishing at point B, we will now be holding a protest ride, starting at 10am next Sunday at Point A and finishing at point B". 😛

I still think that my idea of disorganised rides, or rural critical mass, would solve all these problems.
"I'm going for a ride at 10am next Sunday, starting at Point A and finishing at point B. Who wants to come with me ?"
No entry fee, no T shirt, no support. Just turn up and ride.

Hi Guys, another message from Dean for you:

Hi Guys

Just to let you know we are in correspondence with the Council and are trying to work out how to run the event next year.

The Council have not technically said we can’t use the Bridleways in the future, but have put so many restrictions in place at such a short notice that they are saying we can’t use them for this event.

Although you are perfectly entitled to go and ride as you please, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t rock the boat at this point in our negotiations.

Thanks
Dean

"We have taken the decision to cancel this event based on the Countryside Access department of the Central Bedfordshire Council refusing to provide consent to use the bridleway network for this event. Late last week we were advised of the councils position and their view that holding such an event would require the bridleways to be closed to other users,"

the council need to consider other users, the event would effectively prevent horse riders from using the affected parts of the bridleway network and would have a significant impact on walkers

Last sunday, Woburn was used for a large cross country horse event, no doubt the Duke made a few quid from this........

At any time, on any day of the year, i can get on my bike and ride down those bridleways, so why do i need a dull man in a grey suit to allow me to this time??

I don't get how the Forestry Commission are charging you to ride on a public right of way either, just because it crosses their land.

We live in Bedfordshire and are continually frustrated with the few bridleways available, or landowners making routes difficult with access.

You also need to be friendly to the horse riders/ Trailriders who are in the main the only people putting in applications for historical claims for bridleways and BOATS and thus getting you more trails to ride on 😉

>the council need to consider other users, the event would effectively prevent horse riders from using the affected parts of the bridleway network and would have a significant impact on walkers

No it wouldn't, this isn't a race, its a load of people released at staggered times. I've been over of the MK course at the same time at this happened the other year, its little more than bank holiday level traffic.

This was caused by the standard level of incompetence from central beds council, true me I know about it. 10 Days to get a simple email response, if they bother to reply, to 4 months for a replacement bin (which they broke). I'm lucky, I've learnt if you want anything at all you ignore the standard communication channels and take everything through the ward councillors, evans obviously didn't have that option.

the council need to consider other users, the event would effectively prevent horse riders from using the affected parts of the bridleway network and would have a significant impact on walkers

Its hard to argue that it would be proportionate or legitimate to do so for something which accounts to a normal and permitted use of the highway - the provision in law is there for events that are exceptional to that use, for example a parade, street party or a marathon/triathlon where you would clearly have to restrict use by, for example, vehicles - a sportive riders on a bridleway hardly constitutes this, and I would argue it would be entirely inconsistent to demand this closure when they appear to be happy to allow the road based event to proceed on the highway network the next day without enforcing restrictions on other users (cars, vans etc.) who may be inconvenienced or indeed would pose a much higher risk to the cyclists.

commercial events are different to "personal use" landowner permission is required/ can be withheld. If someone is organising a commercial event why shouldn't the landowner consider charging?

No, I don't accept that there is any distinction in E&W highway law between the two - commercial riding stables are not restricted from using the bridleway network on this basis, just like there is no distinction between a private and commercial use of a car on the rest of the highway network. I think you're thinking of access on foot to CROW land and/or the Scottish outdoor access code.

"Due to the council preventing us from holding a non competitive cycle event, starting at 10am next Sunday at Point A and finishing at point B, we will now be holding a protest ride, starting at 10am next Sunday at Point A and finishing at point B" 😀

Bang on - 100% the way forward

No it wouldn't, this isn't a race, its a load of people released at staggered times.

It's timed isn't it 😉

Can you pass me your survey data for the last few bank holidays and last year's event please. Also forward your stats to the organiser to help him with next year's event

It's timed isn't it

However, this doesn't make it a race or trial of speed - a race is a contest to travel as quickly as possible and outstrip the others - you enter a very grey area where it becomes difficult to categorise something clearly as a 'race' rather than a 'challenge' or 'event' unless there is a clear 'winner' or established rules and prizes. without that you can't effectively substantiate a claim of illegality as a 'race'

I've just had this very discussion with two national parks access departments 😳

After a bit of digging I accept that the event is on the highway and as such landowners are not able to directly restrict access

the issues are likely to be in the nuance of this, as the event is on the highway the highways authority and the local council (not necessarily the same) licence the event

the highways authority has to listen to the user groups and consider the impact of an event as do the council in the area it's held. it's also responsible for the condition of the surface which may deteriorate as a consequence of an event putting a strain on already tight budgets

However, this doesn't make it a race or trial of speed - a race is a contest to travel as quickly as possible and outstrip the others - you enter a very grey area where it becomes difficult to categorise something clearly as a 'race' rather than a 'challenge' or 'event' unless there is a clear 'winner' or established rules and prizes. without that you can't effectively substantiate a claim of illegality as a 'race'

Well, for anyone still interested in the goings on behind this, in order to make their own mind up perhaps, here's some stuff back from an FOI:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/rights_of_wayaccess_evans_off_ro#incoming-507777

My initial comments would be that the councils position is that:

However, where anyone wishes to hold an event on a highway such an event must be licensed by the Highway Authority under the Road Traffic Regulations Act [Special Events] 1994.

Which I believe is arse, in fact its completely the wrong way round, the law quoted states that where an event is due to take place, the council can decide whether they need to regulate it or not, and make an order accordingly, there is no provision or need to 'licence' the event as claimed.

In fact - I think they're getting themselves entirely mixed up with the provisions of S33 of the 1988 Road traffic act, which says that the local authority must give consent for events involving [b]motor vehicles[/b] on the rights of way network, and I reckon that this explains why they were quoting landowner consent as well (which is needed for motor vehicle events)!

from the emails the Evans team are as good as you get for this type of thing so it's a shame they have been stopped

The most likely cause is someone getting upset about late notice and then being awkward. They may also be levering on the "concessionary" access they provide as well

I would get this in front of the relevant Local Access Forum via a cycling rep, they are usually keen on pushing the principles on "rights of access"

as for "stopping up the bridleway", I thought that couldn't be done hence the Commonwealth Games course fiasco

No, you can temporarily close any right if way (which qualify as a 'road' or 'public way' under certain aspects of law) for a legitimate purpose, for example a street party or charity event, even a marathon, however what you can't do is authorise a cycle race on a bridleway (even a closed one) - but you can authorise it on a footpath 😆

The most likely cause is someone getting upset about late notice and then being awkward.

Indeed - probalby a classic case of council employee in 'respect my local authoritaah!'

however what you can't do is authorise a cycle race on a bridleway (even a closed one)

makes you wonder how some events get away with what are in all but name "races"

a classic case of council employee in 'respect my local authoritaah!'

I saw one in the paper within the last couple of weeks where a council official refused to allow a permit or whatever for the local god botherers to do their "passion play" at Easter because it sounded, from the name, like it might be a bit rude.

Sorry, no link, it might have been the Waily Fail and I refuse to go looking on their website...

Bigndaft - I'll directly quote a national park officer recently:

[i]I agree that it is often a fine line between what is a race and what isn’t – and it could be argued that calling something a ‘timed event’ is just a way of getting round the legislation. We are more interested in the practical management issues that arise from mass participation events like these... ... A well organised event can bring people and money to the local economy without causing major impacts for the local community or the environment and it would be a shame to see some of these curtailed because of legal technicalities.[/i]

All hail common sense!

Edlong - I think I'd return to my point about holding a protest ride, just to F*** them over when they realise they can't prevent that! 😈

[quote=big n daft]makes you wonder how some events get away with what are in all but name "races"

I note that the recent Wiggle New Forest Sportive responded to local issues by only allowing you to view individual finishing times (rather than a list of everyone).