Forum menu
[i]Not a chance. Its too complex and expensive[/i]
And your answer is hub gears? Because they're not at all complex and expensive are they? 🙄
Price will come down, reliability will go up, (not that I've heard reports of Di2 being unreliable, quite the reverse in fact.) Battery lasts for months, cables are sealed, they only issue are the folks who regularly snap off their mechs I guess, and if that's a common issue for you, well you're hardly going to be interested.
No - in reply to someone claiming this is the future - hub gears are the future. Far more bikes running hub gears in the rest of Europe now.
Electronic shifting is a very small market interested in the lastest goodies and that don't care about the price. Its all about marketing.
Still fails the Chapman test - simplify adn add lightness or KISS
[i]Still fails the Chapman test - simplify adn add lightness or KISS [/i]
[shrugs/], so does your solution...
I'm not sure hub gears are the future as I cannot see how they're going to make them more efficient. That doesn't matter when you're running a town bike, but it does on a more 'performance' orientated bike. And the cable can still clog, which again isn't that much of an issue on a town bike.
Electronic shifting is currently a very small market because it's only available on the latest top of the range groupset. It'll become cheaper and more and more people will use it.
I'm sure plenty of people don't clog cables, but the problem does exist and so does cable stretch. Look at the SRAM vs Shimano thead and there are loads of people saying how they struggle with indexing on Shimano, which suggests they cannot setup cables properly.
I run fully sealed cables on my cx bike and I will eventually need to change the cables at the end of a season. If electronic shifting improves this then I'm sold.
I didn't say that hub gears were the best alternative to dérailleurs. They are however the future of the European bike - dérailleurs will / are becoming a small niche outside of the UK as hub gears become better and cheaper.
Thus the electronic shifting will be a small niche in a small niche - it will never have the huge volume needed to bring costs right down.
its still a solution in search of a problem. Its only going to appeal to a small number of bike tarts
dérailleurs will / are becoming a small niche outside of the UK as hub gears become better and cheaper
Not even slightly convinced. Do you have any facts to back that up TJ?
hmmm, you could apply the same arguments against hub gears in favour of electronic shifting. Thing is, mountain bikes are niche anyway, and in terms of price; even Deore stuff is silly amounts of money in comparison to what you can buy a fully functioning dérailleurs for. Hub gears have been around for years already, and they're still heavy complex and expensive.
I can't see manufacturers of dérailleur components moving all their production to hub gears, but I can see (and it's happening already) those same companies having an electronic shifting version. All the roady teams using SRAM and Campag will be screaming for a version of Di2 (campag have already made one), and what goes on in roadie curcuits always filters into MTB racing. Couple of years down the line there will be an Ultegra and XT version. It's never going to be as cheap as mechanical shifting, but then again no-one has suggested it will be.
Designers/engineers have been trying for years to come up with an alternative to the dérailleur and they've failed. Hub gears are heavy, complex (OK,l I'll give you that they're reliable/need very little servicing but when they do go wrong, they're non-user-serviceable) and make it a PITA to get the rear wheel in and out.
The best solution in terms of removing/replacing the rear wheel, changing the cassette, ease of use, light weight etc will, for the foreseeable future, be the traditional dérailleur system.
Electronic shifting removes the need to adjust to compensate for cable stretch/dirty cables, removes the heavy complicated mass of ratchets and pulleys inside the shifters and makes it easier than ever to change gear under any conditions. OK, it's expensive but prices will come down as it becomes more widespread - this is still first generation gear remember. It'll get lighter and cheaper, especially once SRAM and Campag introduce some competition to the market.
Within a few years it'll move onto MTB groupsets too.
Many of the bikes in everyday use in Europe are hub gear already - our market is very different to that in Germany and Holland an so on. Hub gear, roller brake bikes are common over there.
Electronic shifting will always be a small niche - STWers are not represenative of the gernral cyling population in the UK and not reperesentaive of cyclist europe wide.
I am sure it will be common amongst racers and nichewhores - but it will not spread beyond this smallmarket segment. Thus Di2 is only the future for this very small group.
In contrast to the small group who would find this useful there is a much larger group of utilitarian cyclists Europe wide who ride hub geared bikes for their simplicity, reliability and so on.
Don't overestimate how small the "enthusiast MTB" group is in the general scheme of things
TJ, your saying STW isnt a relevent sample of the cycling poulation at large when the discussion is about would the STW poulation shift (pun intended) to electronic shifting.
Yes a hub gear is great on a town bike doing a couple of miles here and there like the BorisBike or VeLib which will always demand an entirely different comprimise (heavy, low efficieny, cheep, reliable) to mountainbikes (lightweight, reliable, high efficiency, price is less of an issue).
Hub gears have no future in MTB, gearboxes yes, but hub gears will be the preserve of town bikes and tourers.
TJ, your saying STW isnt a relevent sample of the cycling poulation at large when the discussion is about would the STW poulation shift (pun intended) to electronic shifting.
bang on.
I can't wait for electric shifting to become commonplace for enthusiast cyclists. self adjusting gears and no gritty cables will be amazing, it'll be like moving from v-brakes (work well in certain conditions but need constant fettling) to hydro discs (work well almost all the time with an occasional big service.)
People were claiming this electronic shifting is the future. I was merely pointing out its appeal is to a niche within a niche and thus strictly limited which means it will not become cheap as the economies of scale will not be there - it will remain XTR not deore or alvio
it will remain XTR not deore or alvio
why so? if 9 speed, rapidfire, hydro discs etc etc have trickled down, why should electronic shifting be any different?
Many of the bikes in everyday use in Europe are hub gear already - our market is very different to that in Germany and Holland an so on. Hub gear, roller brake bikes are common over there
But you are talking about a totally different kind of bike. The 'other' european market are generally town bikes, not the type we are talking about, i.e. trail/race bikes. Hub gears have been about for years now, my friends had/have them and i have never been convinced. The weight and weight distribution is the main concern, so much weight in the rear of the bike. I would be potentially sold if the system was very lightweight ( lighter than the drivetrain of an equivalent mech'd/cassette'd bike) and maintenance was easy ( and that includes on trail). By the way the 'chapman' theory you use shows you how things evolve. 'Chapman's Lotus' company are modelling cars weighing 1350/1400/1450kg with big power (and big price £120k)which was totally against his ethos, although the MD said his lightness was not about cars but against other cars in its class . Great twist
KISS? Why the hell should I?
If I want reliable self-adjusting shifting that's not really heavy and inefficent, who tf are you to tell me I'm stupid?
Shimano have invented a great many of the things we use and appreciate every time we get on our bikes. If they and all the other manufacturers been keeping it simple we'd still be using friction shifters on our downtubes and clips and straps, would we not?
Got gears? Got suspension? Pneumatic tyres? If so, then stfu about keeping it simple.
If Di2 has worthwhile advantages over cables such as self adjustment and reliably snappy shifting then it's a good thing. Especially given that the gear cables are now the last thing I have to faff about with on my bike. However I've not ridden it SO I AM KEEPING AN OPEN MIND! Something you seem to find hard!
[i]People were claiming this electronic shifting is the future. I was merely pointing out its appeal is to a niche within a niche and thus strictly limited which means it will not become cheap as the economies of scale will not be there - it will remain XTR not deore or alvio [/i]
Years ago, suspension was considered heavy / unnecessary / expensive, then it became a preserve of DHers only, then XC now it's found on £80 Halfords specials (and the good suspension forks / shocks are light, adjustable, reliable and (relatively) cheap considering the price of suspension 10-15 years ago - remember when RockShox Mag 21 SL Ti forks were £650?!).
It'll be exactly the same with electronic gears.
and (relatively) cheap considering the price of suspension 10-15 years ago - remember when RockShox Mag 21 SL Ti forks were £650?!)
Forks have stayed mostly the same price, just got loads better. Have you seen the price of Fox lately?
leggyblond - because of the small size of the market place.
guys - you miss my point - its a niche within a niche - its attractive to some enthusiasts but that is all thus it will never get the market penetration - thats my bet.
[i]Forks have stayed mostly the same price, just got loads better. Have you seen the price of Fox lately? [/i]
Exactly what I mean.
The Judy DHO forks were over £1000 when they first came out (6" travel triple crowns, elastomer sprung).
Look what £400 buys you now - adjustable travel, coil or air sprung, proper oil damping, loads of adjustments.
Gear shifting is just going along the same road - they won't have come close to making back the money they've spent on R&D of Di2 yet but it'll come and then it'll get cheaper, better, lighter...
its a niche within a niche
I disagree. If it does what it promises and becomes reasonable, it'll be popular.
And I got annoyed because I frigging hate people saying 'KISS'
Well d2i exists on D-A, so I'd put money on it being on XTR in 4 years time. And like 10speed, once its been trialed on D-A I reckon we'll see it on XT/Saint as well.
The dereilieur isn't perfect, but it is efficient, light and it does work reliably (rock strikes aside) and wear isn't unacepably quick. Hub gears like dereilieurs are still basicly the same and fill the same niche's as they were 50 years ago, we're not going to see one replaceing the other.
Good review here http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70101
I'm intrigued... one to keep an eye out for and see how it develops.
Good review that.. really shows you the advantages of the system.
However I just googled for prices.
HOLY F*CK!
It will get cheaper than mechanical eventually. No doubt
Look at how previously expensive electric items are now dirt cheap (or massively more competent for the same price) and have removed the need for a purely mechanical solution. Bike kit will be the same with current D2i levels of awesomeness tricking down to deore and below and D2i getting fancy new tech as well such as wireless or more trick shifting prediction etc.
electronic shifting and one of those honda "gearboxes" 1x10, wide range cassette, centralised within the fame - that'd do me
So it seems like the advantages are a bit like driving an automatic car compared to a manual. As I said I never had any problems with shifting but I do have fully sealed cables. There are plenty of times when I was being shaken to bits riding a fully rigid before suspension but never think I need a better shifting solution.
The review above talks about the gears shifting under any conditions and not missing a shift. I am curious, how does electronic shifting affect this as it is a muddy chain and block that messes that up much the shifting far far more than the cable?
It will get cheaper than mechanical eventually. No doubtLook at how previously expensive electric items are now dirt cheap
Purely electronic stuff is cheap because of the economies of producing it. Di2 is electronic but also complex mechanically too. It'll get cheaper for sure but I doubt it'll be as cheap as normal.
as it is a muddy chain and block that messes that up much the shifting far far more than the cable?
I don't think it is.
With a normal shifter, it clicks the same amount of cable regardless - sometimes it's not enough when the system's cacked up and you don't get your gear. The electronic one presumably knows where it is and can keep applying pressure till it's in the right spot. No faffing with extra pressure on shifts etc.
Ok. So it is due to the indexing being in the dérailleur instead of the shifter. Still went out last Sunday and it was really really muddy and it did not affect the shifting much at all. I did start going biking with a GPS, heart rate monitor and camera but it felt all wrong to have all those electronic gadgets.
How does it work? It is stepper motors (v. reliable and low power reqs) that push/pull the mech?
I've also read about how the mech is trimmed dynamically to minimise misalignment and strain on the chain.
If the above are true then this could be a winner. It *could* eliminate dérailleur tuning (the reason I went for Rohloff & singlespeed on my bikes - CBA with tuning the gears after every ride in the crud in the Peaks). Let the sensor / motor do it.
Electronics (and stepper motors) are dirt cheap in volume numbers. And would attract the Xbox generation who'd want to have a cool gadget on the £300 starter bikes.
Yes, very expensive right now - but comparable in price to Rohloff. And as mentioned already there isn't much more to squeeze from hub technology. Electronics and motors and batteries are still on a scale down curve, especially with electric cars around the corner, all such things will advance in leaps and bounds in the years to come.
Still went out last Sunday and it was really really muddy and it did not affect the shifting much at all
That's exactly what I was saying. Mud isn't the issue, it's cable griminess.
I just hope they do it in 9 speed, 9 is enough.
I really like the idea though.
A few comments
- IIRC di2 is lighter than non electronic dura ace EDIT oops di2 is 50g heavier apparently though that'll drop or go the other way as battery tech continues to improve.
- by all accounts it's incredibly reliable and for mtbing in the future has the advantage that it's self adjusting.
- battery life is ages not just a couple of rides so you have to be actively lazy to have problems there
- TJ's comments are no different to people's claims about indexed shifting when it came out. Old, narrow-minded and arrogant.
- I don't expect it to become common or widely used for a while yet - there's a way to go on cost reduction for that to happen.
And some comments to back at least some of that lot here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/pro-bike-adam-craigs-rabobank-giant-tcx-advanced-sl
Self adjusting means that it knows if it is in gear or not, not just indexing on the mech. Is this how it works?
When the price comes down - why not?
I would expect so yes. It'll know from the angle of dangle I expect.
TJ:
[img] 
[/img]
The modern world:
[img] 
[/img]
TJ's comments are no different to people's claims about indexed shifting when it came out. Old, narrow-minded and arrogant.
Apart from of course that is not what I said
- I don't expect it to become common or widely used for a while yet - there's a way to go on cost reduction for that to happen.
That is what I said - plus it will never be mass market - FFS 9 sp is not mass market.
Crikey - funnily enough I do have one of those phones and I don't have a mobile 🙂
FFS 9 sp is not mass market
Yeah it is! Not used by everyone, but almost all 'serious' mtbs are 9sp.
I think you are trying to talk about the bike market as a whole and others are talking about just mountain biking.
Europe is a totally different market. We have small town cars, they have town bikes with hub gears. Road race is also huge over there, with people having immaculate bikes with all the latest carbon fibre, and colour matching clothes. I've no doubt electronic shifting will take off here and I'm sure it'll pass onto the mountain bike market.
And I actually think it will probably have an impact on most of the bike market eventually. I like the romantic idea of purely human power propelling the bike, but cables are the cause of most peoples gear woes and the reason why bike shops offer 'services'.
No point arguing though, we'll just have to wait and see.
And nearly all of the bikes I see around Halfords have a 9 speed block, so I'd argue that it's certainly mainstream in this country.
Traildog - people were claiming that electronic shifiting is the future, will be seen on all bikes in afew years and so on.
Merely pointing out the fallacy in that. As it will only ever appeal to a small niche it will not get teh economies of scale needed to drive the price down
molgrips - Member"FFS 9 sp is not mass market"
Yeah it is! Not used by everyone, but almost all 'serious' mtbs are 9sp.
My point exactly - serious mtbs are not the mass market. Teh mass market is in cheap mtbs and commuters
Surely we should all be opposed to electronic gear changing?
It is taking a previously stored form of energy (battery) and making it easier to ride.
Sounds just like MXing, except petrol makes up for human effort!
The thin end of the wedge.
Keep MTBing pure!!!
🙂
I agree clarkpm4242
I bet it works wonderfully but I too have an objection to it on a philosophical grounds.
A bicycle is a mechanical objects powered by human muscle and for me there in lies the beauty of a bicycle. The idea of batteries being involved in the heart of a bikes mechanical drive chain leaves me cold.
Does this electronic shifting work like a normal set up? As in one shifter for the rear and one for the front? I imagine it does.
I can see a feature where, when it realises you're in the middle ring and the largest sprocket and you try to change down at the rear again, it activates the front AND rear mechs at the same time to give you whatever is the next lowest gear in the granny ring (say change down to granny and up 2-3 cogs at the back all at once) And visa-versa going back up again. Now that would be handy, IMO 🙂
cables are the cause of most peoples gear woes and the reason why bike shops offer 'services'.
Cables are a bit problem on lots of people bike but most of the time they come in with gear problems it's not only the cable that need attention. Usually gear hanger alignment, chain wear e.t.c also need attention.