Ebikes, why do short?

Nicolai G-Boxx goes up to 565mm. How long do you want?

Spesh S6 is XXL, not XL

Spesh S6 is XXL, not XL

Yeah, they didn't do a XXL previously, 530 seems about right for me but as much as anything it's the lack of stuff much over 500 that seems surprising given that these days that's not terribly uncommon on normal bikes.

I wondered if it was something like the motor weight meaning there's more front wheel weight or something really.

Mostly I'm hoping someone will be along to tell me the orbea will fit fine 😂

Here's me riding my short bike wondering why everyone wants to be all stretched out

Because they're designed for folks who never really ride a bike prior to their invention?

Number of folk you see riding up with the saddle too low.... Only to drop the saddle for the downs, but continue to stay seated.

Eeeegits.

There’s a load of extra stability from the battery and motor weight so a slightly shorter bike can help the agility. Also longer chainstays get you more stability, and e-bikes often have them. My Levo is 455mm reach and my Moxie 475mm, both with the same stem, bars etc. Wheelbases are the same because the Levo’s chainstays are 20mm longer. Both feel good!

Here’s me riding my short bike wondering why everyone wants to be all stretched out

How tall are you, what do you class as short and have you tried a longer reach to know that you don’t like it?

I assumed that it was because you don't need to be in the most efficient pedalling position as you have a motor to help you

because people riding e-bikes don’t stand up, so they don’t need the reach. the accompanying short top tube also results in an upright riding position so that there will be less chance of them bringing up their brunches from repeated agitation of the belly by the thighs.

in case you’re wondering why they don’t t stand up, it’s because their knees can’t cope with the pressure.

Here’s me riding my short bike wondering why everyone wants to be all stretched out

years ago called, they want to let you know that reach isn’t about being stretched.

I have the Orbea wild fs large 2021. Reach is billed as 450mm. I initially wanted a longer reach but after owning the bike for more than a year I have to say that it feels incredibly stable and safe.

The weight at low level makes a difference. My normal bike has a reach of around 510. I thought I wanted longer reach on the ebike.I have realised that the shorter reach on the ebike is not holding me back. It helps in tight switchbacks.

The newer longer reaches on ebikes like Trek rail could also be allowing for the longer larger capacity 725 battery. So not necessarily about handling.

The other thing is that the suspension on the ebike seems to be so much better than the normal bike, possibly due to the weight low down.

In short the ebike is not skittish even with the short reach. There may even be an advantage in terms of manoeuvrability. If you want longer reach look at the Trek.

I have not ridden a longer reach ebike but the shorter reach is fine for me. The ebikes seem to have a stability that could be barge like.

Problems with the Orbea- the gear cable for the dropper post can get squished by the battery preventing the dropper from working or making it sink. I had to fix the cable to one side with a cable tie. Placing the battery cover back on is also little bit awkward. Otherwise the bike is very good.

I've always ridden medium bikes until I bought my Orbea Rise then I had to go up to the Large . I'm just under 6ft if that helps?

OP is correct to identify the trend in shorter e-bikes.

Pole, masters of the long bike, have dropped their K4 biggest size for both platforms, and added a smaller K0 instead. Lots of chat as to why, and it isn’t because it’s newb numpties riding them (i don’t think…)

As others have said, the weight brings stability (along with generally longer chain stays), so you don’t need something quite as big in my experience.

That said, mine as a large is 490mm of reaches, so it’s around what I consider as normal in that regard.

and it isn’t because it’s newb numpties riding them (i don’t think…)

Well obviously.

I don't have one yet.

the e-bike rider is essentially ballast.

Wheelbases are the same because the Levo’s chainstays are 20mm longer

I hadn't really thought about wheel base yet, mainly as i didn't get much further than ett and reach before thinking they probably won't fit. It's a fair point though, wheelbase is a big part of the bike feeling stable.

mine as a large is 490mm of reaches, so it’s around what I consider as normal in that regard.

What is it if you don't mind my asking?

the e-bike rider is essentially ballast

Well I ride like a sack of spuds so it's probably apt.

Here’s me riding my short bike wondering why everyone wants to be all stretched out

More breathing room so you can make better motorbike noises whist pedaling. I guess this is less important in an ebike.

Here’s me riding my short bike wondering why everyone wants to be all stretched out

Modern bikes don't stretch you out, old bikes squash you in.

What is it if you don’t mind my asking?

Gen4 Trek Rail.

Modern bikes don’t stretch you out, old bikes squash you in.

unless you were already on the largest size, thats demonstratably untrue, you could just have bought a larger size before.

All newer bikes have done is move the bottom bracket rearwards, thus steepening the seat tube and increasing the reach. When standing your hands and feet are now slightly further apart, limiting your ability to move your weight forwards and back, but also stopping you moving forwards or back too much and falling off.

My bikes' reach
Full sus: 2016 Rocky Mountain L : 437
Hardtail: 2023 Commencal L : 450
EMTB: 2023 Cannondale L : 475

Thems the figures. But the HT is the most stretched when riding. The EMTB is a perfect fit. They both have 40mm stems. The Full suss would feel too short if it didn't have a 60mm stem, but it's 2016 (not 2003, duh)
People get too hung up on the figures. You can only tell by sitting on the bike.

All newer bikes have done is move the bottom bracket rearwards, thus steepening the seat tube and increasing the reach

Not really, the ett on my bikes (and I assume also smaller sizes) has gone from about 610 (620 was my there abouts or I won't consider it number for bikes back in the days of 26" wheels and things) , to 680mm. It's a much better fit for me and still the most important thing for me assuming everything else is in proportion. that's come along with a steeper seat angle too so the reach hasn't just come about by moving the BB backwards, the physical top tube is also a good bit longer.
If anything it's more that they've reduced the seat tube length and standover so a previously "large" bike can be sold as a medium.

But the HT is the most stretched when riding.

What's the TT like in comparison?

The ebike has 5mm longer TT according to the figures. Probably got shorter saddle rails, or a slightly different rotation on the bars 🙂

The reach on my large Kenevo (Gen1) is 455, with a wheelbase of 1233 and an ETT of 626. HA 65, ST 74.6.

That will all have changed now Ive mulleted it with a 29 front end - HA is now 64, not measured the rest, but will tonight - reach will have reduced slightly.

Suits me with long legs and short torso though, thus having the seat higher than the bars - I'm 5'11". I do run the seat a little bit lower on the eeb and it's now not far off a perfect fit for me.

A lower, further forward cockpit gives me numb balls, numb hands and I can't stand my thighs coming up to my stomach as mentioned earlier. I just ride better with a more upright position

hmm -

457mm for Large Titus El Viajero.

480mm for Large Transition Spur.

Should they be longer?

Probably got shorter saddle rails, or a slightly different rotation on the bars 🙂

Assuming it's a full sus it'll get shorter at sag too vs longer on a ht.

Should they be longer?

Do they fit?

the e-bike rider is essentially ballast

Bit harsh. I mean, something's got to twirl the cranks to make the motor kick in, right?

As someone who has had to start riding an e-bike - the reach of an XL YT Decoy and and a L Orbea Rise has been entirely fine - coming from a large Transition Patrol and 18 Long Stanton Switchback.

Neither has led to any difficulties caused by peculiarities of sizing.

Phew, bullet dodged, just about to buy a wild, looked at a review which happened to mention the new model is 25mm longer. Double check, the existing xl is 485 reach not the 505 I was already unsure about.

Yeah but nah.

Just use a 110mm stem 😁

A lower, further forward cockpit gives me numb balls, numb hands and I can’t stand my thighs coming up to my stomach as mentioned earlier. I just ride better with a more upright position

You're doing it wrong.

Its a lower BB, not cockpit. You should be in the same relative body position to your older bikes, just shunted forwards into a longer front centre. The objective is to move your entire centre of mass forwards so that there is more weight distributed to the front wheel by a function of your location on the bike, not your body posture. Leaning lower on the bars just gives you all the things you've mentioned.

Just use a 110mm stem 😁

Doh, why didn't I think of that!

Keep seeing lots of bikes ridden with saddles pushed all the way forward which i can only asume means the bike is too long for them. Especially when seat tubes are already steeper than they use to be.

You’re doing it wrong.

Its a lower BB, not cockpit. You should be in the same relative body position to your older bikes, just shunted forwards into a longer front centre. The objective is to move your entire centre of mass forwards so that there is more weight distributed to the front wheel by a function of your location on the bike, not your body posture. Leaning lower on the bars just gives you all the things you’ve mentioned.

1) What am I specifically doing wrong? My bike is fine

2) None of that made any sense

1) see 2).

2) Not much I can do if you have such a low baseline of comprehension. If you're not as stupid as you've made yourself sound, perhaps you should try thinking harder about, you know, words.

3) *shrugs*

unless you were already on the largest size, thats demonstratably untrue, you could just have bought a larger size before.

But then you continue to say what I said but with more words because STW'ers are nothing if not verbose.

I'm 6'2" and I've been riding MTB's since the 90's. Modern geometry is a godsend and I will fight you for it. Tiny bikes can get in the sea.

“Keep seeing lots of bikes ridden with saddles pushed all the way forward which i can only asume means the bike is too long for them.”

I’d say that’s usually a wrong assumption. Seat angles have continued to get steeper, so until that stops happening I’d assume that it’s because riders want their hips further forward vs the pedals. For example, I have my saddle further forwards on my shorter reach bike and further bike on my longer reach bike.

Not much I can do if you have such a low baseline of comprehension. If you’re not as stupid as you’ve made yourself sound, perhaps you should try thinking harder about, you know, words.

I'll let this pass for now, as I don't fancy a ban

Well, it is getting late. I shall be grateful for small mercies.

Do they fit?

For the most part, yes.  My old SB95c had an ETT of 614 and ran a 70mm stem on a 71deg seat tube.  The El Viajero is 633mm ETT on a 50mm stem but with a 74deg seat tube.  So they’re very similar, but I do “feel” further forward on the bike, but that’s likely due to 100mm travel as opposed to 130mm, so a lower front end and more weight forward.  It also feels a little twitchier, which is also likely a fork/travel/stem combination.

My bike is fine

I'm sure you think it is.
Which is also fine.

Most people can adapt to anything given a bit of time.

This doesn't mean that it's the best setup for everyone though.

And TBF you didn't seem to understand some basic stuff when you were talking about sticking a 29" fork on your Kenevo.

I'm sure you love it though and that's all that matters.

Back to the OP
My take is also that the reach figures are way too short on many Eebs.
But the extra weight allows you to get away with it a little more.
Thought TBF with new frame sizing and shorter seat tubes it is getting easier to choose frame size on reach and still be able to get a descent length dropper in there.

And TBF you didn’t seem to understand some basic stuff when you were talking about sticking a 29″ fork on your Kenevo.

I understood fully the effect of a 29 wheel and increased ATC - we were talking about 10mm difference in the fork travel itself.

Its a lower BB, not cockpit. You should be in the same relative body position to your older bikes, just shunted forwards into a longer front centre. The objective is to move your entire centre of mass forwards so that there is more weight distributed to the front wheel by a function of your location on the bike, not your body posture. Leaning lower on the bars just gives you all the things you’ve mentioned.

A lower BB (BB's can only go so low before they are not practical) doesn't increase the reach of a bike if we are measuring reach how all manufacturers measure reach. A lower BB with a steeper seat tube will move weight forward as you state. If all this equates to a similar ETT, then I get what you are saying. If the bike ends up with a longer ETT because for whatever design reasons it's just longer, then you are going to be more stretched out - and struggle to get your weight back when required - especially in a long leg/short torso scenario. I stand to be corrected, but this is how I see it

And don't be so rude in future

Keep seeing lots of bikes ridden with saddles pushed all the way forward which i can only asume means the bike is too long for them.

No, it means they've adjusted their seating position for climbing efficiency sat down. The bike could be absolutely bob on for them for bum off the saddle descending.

No, it means they’ve adjusted their seating position for climbing efficiency sat down. The bike could be absolutely bob on for them for bum off the saddle descending.

You really think an average Eeber is that clued up ?

I've been in a few LBSs this week. Both were showing an Eeb to a customer who'd just bought it... lets just say, it was both of their first bikes in many many many years... 😀

You really think an average Eeber is that clued up ?

I don't look down on people using ebikes, or make assumptions about their previous riding experiences. Saddle position can be shifted about for all sorts of reasons. A saddle pushed forward does not have to mean the bike is too small, it's one of the key adjustments you can make on a bike... leaving it in the middle of the rails and not trying other positions is often not making the most of the bike.

I don’t look down on people using ebikes, or make assumptions about their previous riding experiences.

I was doing neither... it was clearly obvious neither had ever in the last 20+ years sat on a bicycle. Sure it's only 2 people... but eebers are often the home for born again cyclists

I read a - understandably suppressed - study that says riding an e-bike effectively shrinks riders in a matter of months. Apparently it's a combination of reduced fitness and consequent minor postural collapse combined with the electro-magnetic pulses generated by the motor when in use - the higher the assistance mode, the more elevated the frequency of the waves which interrupt growth at a cellular level and mitigate cell growth. For an individual cell the impact is tiny, but when added up, the cumulative impact can mean a rider shrinking by two inches or more depending on original height.

This might seem far fetched, but I've yet to see any other explanation that's remotely credible. The whole shorter bike thing is baked in at the design stage and intended to prevent riders from noticing what's going on. It also explains the who raft of ebike-specific accessories and components which have been shrunk to scale to create the optical illusion that all is well.

I don't expect the sheeple here to believe this, but do your own research before jumping to conclusions powered by the overwhelming plutocracy that is the bike industry.

You added your example after my reply Weeksy. I wouldn't extrapolate that example onto "the average Eeber". The average customer in a bike shop? Maybe. Actually, from my shop days... definitely.

I don’t expect the sheeple here to believe this, but do your own research before jumping to conclusions powered by the overwhelming plutocracy that is the bike industry.

Yep, and we all know that Bill Gates is the person behind the whole bike industry.

This might seem far fetched

Now you mention it - I'm shrinking faster than my age would have me do naturally. Albeit I'm reasonably fit and don't use too much assistance.

Does sound rather far fetched though

I was a knacker under 6ft for as long as I can remember - at 52, I'm now 5'10.5". Considering you are supposed to lose 0.5"/decade over 40yrs old, I'm shrinking quickly. I'll be a midget by the time I'm 60

kelvin
Full Member
Keep seeing lots of bikes ridden with saddles pushed all the way forward which i can only asume means the bike is too long for them.

No, it means they’ve adjusted their seating position for climbing efficiency sat down. The bike could be absolutely bob on for them for bum off the saddle descending.

On my 2018 Hightower LT the seat pushed forward as seattube angle rather slack, also ended up with a not fashionable 70mm stem, perfect fit

On my 2022 Levo saddle pushed back, more so that my legs dropping on the pedals feels natural, agree its slightly short in size S3, at 5ft8 but with long body and short legs I do wonder if I should have gone for an S4...but I'm only short! Also use an Aenomaly saddle angle adjuster thing - it's amazing on an ebike...drop the nose and pedal up Skiddaw without stopping, gives a great platform to sit on.

My point...yeah agree saddle adjustments are there to be used IMO

The shrinking effect can be countered by making sure you have a good stretching routine pre and post ride.

The shrinking effect can be countered by making sure you have a good stretching routine pre and post ride.

😀

And a stretched out riding position? 😉

A quick afterthought - if you are going to check your height, avoid the e-bike specific tape measures for obvious reasons...

And don’t be so rude in future

New here? 😆

Keep seeing lots of bikes ridden with saddles pushed all the way forward

What sort of person keeps noticing this? Where are you doing such bizarre research? School bike sheds?

The shrinking effect can be countered by making sure you have a good stretching routine pre and post ride.

No, the only way to fix it is by taking big pharma.
Added to the extra weight which means you can only go through gates, not over him like with a meat bike and it rapidly becomes clear they're all in on it.
No one ever rode an ebike over the north pole either did they?

What sort of person keeps noticing this? Where are you doing such bizarre research? School bike sheds?

I do but it doesn't concern me either...

No, it means they’ve adjusted their seating position for climbing efficiency sat down.

But they don't *need* to do that on a eBike ?? It's a non-thing with a motor and a lot of the reason for getting an eBike is comfort over a super efficient aero position.

Specifically for eMTB there is no such "adjustment" for an eMTB... generally it depends on how steep, traction etc.
You want the combination of height and weight position that gives maximum traction and keeps enough weight on the front wheel.

A saddle pushed forward does not have to mean the bike is too small, it’s one of the key adjustments you can make on a bike…

Exactly but with the caveat above...

I do

Christ.
I've adjusted the saddle on my ebike so its in the right place. **** where it is for climbing/descending, as ever, adjusted it for the times when I'm sat down the most. Same as any other bike.
I shall stand and reveal it's position to every rider I pass, just in case they are one of those checking up on such things.

Also use an Aenomaly saddle angle adjuster thing – it’s amazing on an ebike…drop the nose and pedal up Skiddaw without stopping, gives a great platform to sit on.

Ohhh, not heard of that before. It does look good but, HOW MUCH!?!, I'll stick with clenching my sphincter on a steep climb I think.

It’s a non-thing with a motor and a lot of the reason for getting an eBike is comfort over a super efficient aero position.

You sit down on more climbs on an ebike than one without assistance. So a more comfortable and balanced climbing position in the saddle really matters. Saddle position helps with that.

"Aero position" has nothing to do with it.

Not so much an issue with ebikes due to the longer chain stays but I suspect a lot of bikes have saddles rammed forward these days due to kinked seat tubes having actual angles of about 50 degrees at the top despite an effective angle of 90 and the desire for long dropper posts meaning short folks are now finding a more rearwards saddle puts them way too close to the rear axle so they jam the saddle forward. Not because the bike is too long but because the length gives them the choice.
(way back in the days of elastomer forks and short bikes, I'd much rather have had my saddle right forward on the rails instead of right back behind the rear axle but doing so would have ended up with the bike much too short, forward and "over" the BB is generally a much nicer place to be)

You sit down on more climbs on an ebike than one without assistance. So a more comfortable and balanced climbing position in the saddle really matters. Saddle position helps with that.

“Aero position” has nothing to do with it.

We seem to be in violent agreement... ???

You sit down on more

Do I ? 😂

We seem to be in violent agreement… ???

Are you new to the Internet?

This thread has provided a great deal of laughs - the vast majority intentionally!

I’ve needed my spirits lifted and sincere thanks to many of you who have posted here!