’m not sure I buy the “more distance, same time” angle still, I think the difference has to be rider fatigue Vs Battery life still.
If you go out for a human powered ride on your own you ride as far or as hard as your puny Human legs and lungs can take you. If you’re out on your eeeeb you’ll ride as far or fast as the battery allows, surely that means E-MTBer’s have not pushed their physical limits as much as us luddites are kind of forced to.
As an apples for apples comparison, same route, same conditions, i've done 30 mile/3500ft in 2 hours on the ebike, 3 hours on the normal bike. Feels like similar effort on the way around, after, battery is dead at the end and i want more, on the leg bike i could stop for lunch and probably manage another hour.
Threads like this always attract non ebikes who basically have no idea of what an ebike is really about and can only compare it to their style of riding.
Yes fat lazy people are going to use them to do less work. Yes you will lose fitness if you go from analogue to ebike and ride the same.
Ebikes are about riding further and doing more descending/laps than you would normally do on a normal bike.
An hour on my normal bike and I'd do a lap of verderers at fod and maybe a DH run. An hour on an ebike and I'll do 8-10 runs of the off piste DH runs and have covered probably 4 times the climbing. This is much more fun.
Also DH the bike is way better handling than my lightweight trail bike. It tracks so much better and has much more grip.
All the non ebikes just want to moan about it because they don't understand what ebike riding is about. Just going round a field or a car park and saying it's too easy is like driving a car to the shops and saying people who drive are lazy.
If you’re out on an E-bike for a ride with non-e-bike riders how can that make you “fitter” you’re riding the same distance as unassisted riders, but with assistance, by definition you’re doing less work, surely you need to ride twice as much for the same exercise benefit
yes. well maybe not twice as much but more. depends on mileage and motor use.
i dont get the cardio workout on teh eeb but i defo get fully knackered/aching. its alot of weight to muscle about properly. this is jumps and fast trail riding though, not a 30 mile xc ride. on xc loop rides i`m defo not as tired. but its nice not to be broken after a decent ride and it defo enables those less able to ride hills to get out on teh hills (which is just excellent really)
most rides with non eebers i`ll do a few extra laps while they eat jelly babies and chat about parts.
most group rides on a normal bike and i`ll do an extra lap or 2 of teh jumps/session a few turns while they eat jelly babies and chat about parts. i just lap less extra distance on a leg bike.
i do like a bit of chat occasionally though!
Its good to see the discussion getting more nuanced - there are still the early adopter evangelicals and dyed in the wool Luddites but there are a lot more people with ebikes that are prepared to see the downsides and those without that see they have a place.
No plans for one for me yet. Sure, I can see there could be times they could be a real asset but I can't see past the financial side. Curiously though I'm encouraging Mrs C into buying one out of our savings pot and I can really see how it would allow her massively improved access to more of the countryside than her joints (and fitness) currently give her. It would also give us something to do together and level a playing field to the point we'd both still be smiling and getting something out of it.
^^That’s a bloody tragic statement! I know you’re trying to sound positive but You might as well say MTBing is a lovely Socially inclusive sport, as long as you’ve got £6k+ plus to throw at the kit, paupers need not apply. The absolute opposite of what it’s about IMO.
I'm trying to think of another mtb development that has been so divisive financially. Sure there has always been ways to spend silly amounts of money and some of them made you actually faster, but they didn't put you physically and metaphorically out of sight. Skill and fitness still overcame a fat wallet. Now it's different. I do worry there are people who can't really afford both the up front cost and the long term maintenance costs buying into it just to keep up with their current riding buddies who made the switch but could afford it - the people who form their main social circle and all the good mental health stuff that comes with that. Similarly I do hope the haves in that situation have the common sense to see where the fine line is in micky taking about the slow leg biker holding everyone else up and not making it purgatory for someone who wants remain part of it but does not have the means to buy themselves some free speed.
Threads like this always attract non ebikes who basically have no idea of what an ebike is really about and can only compare it to their style of riding.
Yes fat lazy people are going to use them to do less work. Yes you will lose fitness if you go from analogue to ebike and ride the same.Ebikes are about riding further and doing more descending/laps than you would normally do on a normal bike.
An hour on my normal bike and I’d do a lap of verderers at fod and maybe a DH run. An hour on an ebike and I’ll do 8-10 runs of the off piste DH runs and have covered probably 4 times the climbing. This is much more fun.Also DH the bike is way better handling than my lightweight trail bike. It tracks so much better and has much more grip.
All the non ebikes just want to moan about it because they don’t understand what ebike riding is about. Just going round a field or a car park and saying it’s too easy is like driving a car to the shops and saying people who drive are lazy.
Not everyone/everywhere has the terrain to suit that though. Even ignoring the fact i don't like how they ride (funnily i've just been out on the wifes bike this morning as my legs are knackered from Zwifting, oh the weird irony in there), the simple fact is, i don't have big Up and big Down locally, i have FoD like yourself and i 100% get how you'd get a LOT more riding in there, but that's still 90 mins driving for me. The next nearest 'destination' is Rogate which is 70 mins away. But in Berks/Oxon/West Berks, there's just not the level of terrain that an Eeeb brings that much to the party in the context of 'more laps'... Sure i could get more miles, of random XC lol... But not really more laps of good descents. So whilst i get you, it's not the same for everyone.
yeah, unless you live near somewhere hilly, the 15mph limit will mean you won't necesarily go further or faster on an ebike.
You might even get left behind if people are doing 17mph or something on the flats!
All the non ebikes just want to moan about it because they don’t understand what ebike riding is about.
Yeah man! They'll never get it...
Just going round a field or a car park and saying it’s too easy is like driving a car to the shops and saying people who drive are lazy.
People who drive are lazy, it's the basic point of cars, they enable laziness, I own a car that's what car ownership is all 'about'... I'd find a better analogy.
You might even get left behind if people are doing 17mph or something on the flats!
I'm not sure I've ever done 17mph on a mountain bike off road on the flat to be honest, maybe for a short burst but not for any length of time I wouldn't have thought.
Now it’s different. I do worry there are people who can’t really afford both the up front cost and the long term maintenance costs buying into it just to keep up with their current riding buddies who made the switch but could afford it – the people who form their main social circle and all the good mental health stuff that comes with that.
Valid point. You'd hope friends and social reasons for riding would overrule any tech differences.
I think it works in reverse too, it's not all £6k+ E-FS bikes. I've seen quite a few older guys on pretty basic E-HT MTBs enjoying social rides with others on regular bikes that generally look more expensive than the E-bikes. One group I met out locally had 2 Bafang conversion kits among them, attached to an old FSR and a Marin HT.
^^That’s a bloody tragic statement! I know you’re trying to sound positive but You might as well say MTBing is a lovely Socially inclusive sport, as long as you’ve got £6k+ plus to throw at the kit, paupers need not apply. The absolute opposite of what it’s about IMO.
i dont think its financially divisive that much. my focus jam2 eeb was 3.25k. the majority of the half decent riders locally have leg bikes above, or around, that value. quite a few have more than one above that value.
yes you can spend loads - but you dont need to. same with normal bikes.
i admit that its not something you can 'upgrade to' and you`ll be better off buying a new one which is where the issue lies i guess. However my eeb is only my second brand new bike in 20+ years. and the last one was a £500 cycle to work job 10yrs before!
People who drive are lazy, it’s the basic point of cars, they enable laziness, I own a car that’s what car ownership is all ‘about’… I’d find a better analogy.
Yeah, if you are only ever gonna use it for driving to the shops. But cars enable people to drive further and faster than that, hence the comparison to a short ride around the car park. That's the analogy. Sorry if it was hard to understand what I was meaning when I typed it.
Cars aren't for lazy people. No way I could do my job without one.
I sometimes ride in a group of people I have ridden with for years. I have always been the weakest in the group so when I come on my ebike I can keep up with the others and have a social chat. This hasn't been a problem for anybody except the strongest rider. He has always been first up every climb but he really doesn't like the fact that I am there with him. In fact he always quizzes me on which bike I will be on and seems to avoid the rides I am on the ebike
I ride the leg bike locally (Stumpy), its flat as a flat thing in warwickshire, 20miles gets you a 1000ft!
For me the half fat eeeb is perfect, bit of assistance up the hills, but doesn't ride like a moped on the way down.
Had some big rides in Innerleithen, back to back 8000ft days, 1 main battery and 3 range extenders. Would be toast on a leg bike after that! Can also crack 2000ft an hour on it if I want to ruin myself.
The eebs have doubled the distance and elevation gain, whats not to like about that. Also means I can do a bit of trail maintenance and get a decent ride in still.
As others have already pointed out, it's how you ride with others. When I ride with others, it's a social thing, not a race. I gave up on that sort of group riding years ago, where everyone was waiting on me at the top of the climb and then would scream off as soon as I caught up. Dicks. Now I have an ebike due to ill health, (beat cancer, then diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis), which I ride with my current social group of riders, but I ride it exclusively in eco mode when I'm with them. It's a fairly good workout for me, and I'm riding at the same speed as the group. There'd be no point in going out with them otherwise.
C.
It's not a Leg Bike, it's a Knee Bike ...
^^^ 🙂 🙂
I’d find a better analogy.
Escalators and stairs. You might think escalators are for lazy people, but if you run up them, they're just/almost as tiring as taking the stairs. But faster...
It’s not a Leg Bike, it’s a Knee Bike …
Oof, I don't want to say it, but that's good.
😀
Escalators and stairs. You might think escalators are for lazy people, but if you run up them, they’re just/almost as tiring as taking the stairs. But faster…
Yep, that works - but you're wrong! 😄
If you ran up the escalator and only sauntered up the stairs maybe. Or ran up 2 or 3 escalators instead of running up one flight of stairs. Of course you could replace walking briskly up the stairs with doing next to nothing on the escalator looking at your phone in exactly the same time......which is the default London underground way of using them.
If you ran up the escalator and only sauntered up the stairs maybe. Or ran up 2 or 3 escalators instead of running up one flight of stairs. Of course you could replace walking briskly up the stairs with doing next to nothing on the escalator looking at your phone in exactly the same time……which is the default London underground way of using them.
Exactly! But as with e-bikes, running up escalators is almost unbearably exciting. If you want to make it harder, run up the down escalator instead 🙂 Stairs are for wimps!!
Thanks all, going to get myself booked on an E hire bike to see what all the fuss is about. Up Whinlatter in a couple of weeks so hopefully will see if I can get on one there. Normally when I'm up there I do a quick round of the Blue and then choose either the North or the South Red loop. Hopefully with an E bike I'll be able to get all three done with time to spare, perhaps with another quick lap of the blue at the end. Double the distance, double the fun as they say. Sound about right?
My experience is that they do't get on with normal bikes. Faster on the uphills but slower on the easier flats as they top out. Espcially noticeable on gravelly transition stages.
All of course if the riders choose such things.
It's all about rule one. I often ride in mixed groups; leg bikes with FF, leg bikes with SL, leg bikes with both, FF with SL. When I'm riding with leg bikes on the SL I only ever ride in Eco these days. If I'm on the FF with other FF riders we get extra laps in while the leg bikes catch their breath. If I'm on the SL riding with FFs I ride at the same pace as when it's just SLs and the FF guys can either do extra laps or get cold waiting for me.
Whatever I ride and whoever I ride with, it's all about the downs and the fun for me.
The whole 'leg bikes' crap is really grating. The bikes you're calling 'leg bikes' are actually just 'mountain bikes' or 'bikes'. They don't need any sort of additional qualification. Please stop 🙁
^^ ebikes are just 'mountain bikes' or 'bikes' too.
I always wonder why there is any sort of an argument on fitness or 'cheating' when those complain are using a bike with gears on it.
What are the gears for ?. To make it easier. But excuse me isn't that also cheating 😕
So proponents of the analogue, go on take those gears off and go single speed.
Admittedly you'll likely have to walk and push more, but just think about the workout you'll be giving yourself. Far mare than any other cycles riding the hills.
iainc
Full Member
read this bitthose of us on proper bikes
rolls eyes…
He's not wrong - Bicycle definition
"a vehicle with two wheels and a seat for a rider whose feet push pedals around in circles to make the wheels turn."
An ebike is NOT a proper/pure/normal bicycle. It's an electrically assisted bicycle.
What are the gears for ?. To make it easier. But excuse me isn’t that also cheating 😕
Did you not do physics in school? 🙂
What are the gears for ?. To make it easier. But excuse me isn’t that also cheating
No - Gears simply trade force for speed. The total energy required is the same. The difference with an e-bike is that some of that energy comes from the battery, not the rider.
My experience of mixed groups is rather, mixed.
It can be the perfect recipe for a group ride amongst mates, but I've noticed that it's all too easy to break rule one on an ebike without even realising during a social ride. Usually it's an average speed problem. If the people running on leg power aren't racing snakes, they aren't going to ride the same average speed without eebers moderating themselves.
Escalators and stairs. You might think escalators are for lazy people, but if you run up them, they’re just/almost as tiring as taking the stairs. But faster…
Yep, that's an almost perfect analogy I'd say.
Escalators and stairs. You might think escalators are for lazy people, but if you run up them, they’re just/almost as tiring as taking the stairs. But faster…
More fun running up the down escalators on the Underground whilst half cut late at night - good fitness test esp if it's a long one...
More fun running up the down escalators on the Underground whilst half cut late at night – good fitness test esp if it’s a long one…
Obviously you'll also want to run down the up escalator or risk muscular imbalance issues...
Mixed groups are pretty dull for an ebiker unless out purely for a social ride.
An ebike only ride is bloody brilliant when everyone is pushing on. Just non stop riding, no waiting, no recovery at the top of the hills. Excellent fun.
Riding with normal bikes on an ebike is slow and boring on anything other than downhill where it’s all about the rider. I like the hardest climbs in the peaks and they are a real challenge and a proper workout on an ebike, as we have a motor we may as well use it to tackle stuff we can’t do on a normal bike. Each to their own some people like to use them so they can just have a ride and not worry about their fitness. It’s all money coming into the industry which has to be a good thing.
I would have though anyone going on about ebikes and lack of fitness would be road cyclists and not MTBers, much of their journey is downwards with little pedaling. Roadies at least seem to be the fitter of the two.
Along with riding solo and with my wife quite a lot, I do a weekly night ride with a few guys that are absolute beasts. For as long as I can remember I've always been at the back and they always have to wait for me at the top of climbs. Fortunately, as well as being great riders they're also patient and have no issue at all having to wait around for me to catch up.
However, bought an ebike a few weeks ago (along with my wife) - and while I'm still getting used to pointing all that weight down greasy rocky shoots etc it just been a great leveller. Stick it in Eco and I get to spend the evening riding in a group having a chat and a laugh rather than spending the evening trying to catch them 🙂
So many variables in group rides, but certainly works well for me (in our group).
It's slightly different fitness. With roadies, in which I dabble sometimes, it's more about sustained effort over long periods of time with rarely if ever reaching 100% effort. With MTB, cross country anyway, a lot more short sharp bursts followed by rests with frequent short periods of maximum power. I think GCN did a video comparing the two and peak power for MTB riding was higher.
not MTBers, much of their journey is downwards with little pedaling. Roadies at least seem to be the fitter of the two.
Much, or generally about 50% uphill and downhill whatever/wherever you ride unless it's point to point?
Plus a canny roadie doesn't pedal downhill much and hides in the bunch or behind other riders as much as possible, it's all about energy conservation. They're professional skivers most of the time. Allegedly some of them use motors too?
Mixed groups are pretty dull for an ebiker unless out purely for a social ride.
An ebike only ride is bloody brilliant when everyone is pushing on. Just non stop riding, no waiting, no recovery at the top of the hills. Excellent fun.
Says it all, really. If there's no recovery, there's little to no effort.
I got one back in November , All my mates slowly got them so It seemed unless i wanted to ride on my own It was the next step . I've always been fairly fit and could do Enduro size days without much hassle. A couple of days ago we managed 10 descents at Glentress scattered all over the hill. I think it was around 21 miles with 4600ft of climbing. My bike has a shimano motor with a 620 watt battery and I would say probably stuck to Eco for about 70% of the ride. My mates have Bosch motors with bigger batteries and Im way behind on the climbs . My battery started flashing red about 300 yards from the van . Battery management is a massive learning curve I think as for handling It dosent take long to get used to the extra weight on the downs. In fact I think its a big plus as feels more planted over roots and rocks , the other thing is you need to find the right gear for climbing or it really can feel like its switched off. What I mean is the big ring feels kinda pointless in Eco but shift down 3 or 4 and It kicks in but still feels like you are working. I still use my hardtail and gravel bike for local rides as It seems a waste of time getting the E bike dirty when I have to keep it inside. So many sheds and garages locally are getting broken into for Ebikes.
I dont think you will regret buying one but in hindsight I would have went for the Bosch motor and Battery .
I ride in a social group where I'm usually the only non e bike, if I'm holding them back they're very polite about it 😄
Some are more likely to use it as an opportunity to ride a non e bike too.
If I had one too, we might go further as a group, but possibly not.
Main barrier for me is cost and risk of failure/obsolescence.
Having said that we do have one for my wife as it helps level things up riding together that we wouldn't do without it. Unfortunately we couldn't find a size to suit us both so that I could use it too.
More fun running up the down escalators on the Underground whilst half cut late at night – good fitness test esp if it’s a long one…
Think I'm getting this right... Basically, ebikers must sit on the handlebars and ride backwards?
Agree 100%
The past couple of weeks I've got back into a few group rides.
I was the first e-bike adopter out of the people I ride with and granted the groups now have a different make-up of people with some of the core riders still there. 80% are now on e-bikes though
They are always led by a standard bike to set the pace and none of the eebs are jostling to get to the front - occassionally the non-eebs will sit aside for the eebs to nail technical climbs. Overall it's really chilled and you generally wouldn't know that it's a predominantly eeb ride other than the guys using their legs cursing ocassionally when they are shattered 😉
It's all about the people you ride with as to how the ride is approached I guess
Yeah, as above - not that I was part of the group, but I was out on my own and got slightly lost, so this group of about 10 riders invited me to hitch along with them. I was chatting to the chap at the back (easily the oldest of the group, if thats relevant), he mentioned my bike, I looked down and he was riding an ebike too. I was quite surprised cos he was just riding along at their speed, having a nice day out in the hills.
Be interesting to get an update from the OP 🙂
