It seems to be getting to the stage where more people I see out on the trails seem to be out on E bikes than on regular bikes. I'd always assumed that E bikes were the preserve of those of us who were of advancing years or had piled on the pounds a bit but these days even a lot of the youth seem to be riding them. Which is a difficult dilemma because it is making riding in mixed groups much more difficult. The E bikers are always at the top of the hills first, waiting for those of us on proper bikes to arrive at the top, panting and out of breath. They are of course also fresher to hit the downhills after the climb.
I'd always shunned E bikes but now that some riding mates have them then it is no longer getting so much fun to turn up with a knife to a gunfight. So should I simply buy one and move with the times? I'm trying to justify it by telling myself that uphills will become as much fun as downhills, and that I won't get less fit because I'll ride a lot further. But is this actually true? Or should I just find some different mates who still like to spanner themselves riding uphill.
I won’t get less fit because I’ll ride a lot further. But is this actually true?
No, how can it be true if you are out of breath and they aren’t.
I don't know overall, but i do know that riding with manual riders and on an ebike you won't work as hard... but that's kinda a given. Ebikes i find it depends how you ride them. I rode ours a few times recently and sitting just on the cusp of the cut-off... it was a lovely cruise ride, my HR was up, but up to say 110-120bpm, not the 180 i'd need to hit them speeds on a manual bike.
Riding with other Ebikes on rides, you still work proper hard (in the right terrain), as long as you're all working hard. But, it does make many aspects a lot lot easier (if you want it to be).
No, how can it be true if you are out of breath and they aren’t.
I don't know, maybe they are out of breath at the top of the climb but have recovered by the time I've dragged my sorry arse up there. It's what the E bikers I ride with have said though, they are not less fit, just than an E bike allows them to ride much further.
E-bike riders I see seem to be wearing every item of clothing they own. From that I can only assume they're not using enough energy to generate much body heat. Maybe they're preserving their energy for use over a longer period...
When I'm riding with non ebike mates, I'll ride in eco and be in the middle of the group. For me it's a social thing. Don't see the point in racing to the top then waiting for 5 minutes.
When riding with other ebikes I'll switch it to tour mode and can ride further in the same time. It's still a workout but not as much as my hardtail
Depends on how you ride any bike. I'm rinsed out when I ride my ebike. I go hard all the time and never stop for a breather. Others use turbo all the time , hardly change gears and never get a sweat but still smile. That's the point for me , smiles
I put the same effort in and wear the same clothing on all my bikes...
You keep posting your obsession with what people you don't know wear though Onion.
I don't do mixed rides though.
We either all ride eebers or all ride manual on group rides.
It's about a 50/50 split for eeb to manual rides.
If I look at my stats from a ride my HR and calories burn are pretty similar. The main difference is more height gain and distance.
OP.
Have you borrowed an eeber of a mate for a ride?
I'd do that first to see if you like it or not.
I'm the only one of my riding group on an ebike. When riding with my mates I keep it in eco and ride at their pace.
It’s have you borrowed an eeber of a mate for a ride?
I’d do that first to see if you like it or not.
I've had a little go on one around a field with some jumps. It was fun for sure and was quite novel to press full throttle, or whatever else you call it, on the way back up to the top of the field. My main concern would be that I would just be tempted to press full power all of the time rather than ever pedal hard.
Need to take one on a longer ride I guess. Perhaps I'll hire one next time I'm at a trail centre.
So should I simply buy one and move with the times?
It's entirely up to you OP. You can make your MTB riding more about fitness or more about maximising other aspects, sounds like your riding group is mixed in that respect already. The balance is yours to choose - no one in 2023 is really going to give you much hassle for it either way.
I’ve had a little go on one around a field with some jumps.
You need to take one on a proper ride TBH.
Start looking for stuff to ride up the way you'd look for stuff to ride down.
oooh ohh - I know this one! Fun! The answer is fun!
Emtb gives options,you can rinse yourself,or you can have a lazy ride without breaking a sweat, either is possible on the same trail.
With normal mtb you only have the rinse yourself option.
So if you get an ebike it's down to you to decide how you want to ride.
I went to llandegla last weekend, I was surprised by just how many emtbs there were,it must have been 50% emtb. Everyone looked to be having a great time.
I went to llandegla last weekend, I was surprised by just how many emtbs there were,it must have been 50% emtb.
Doesn't surprise me at all.
Mrs Hoppy has an e-bike, we've set the support level to "make up the difference" so if we're both going at the same perceived effort we go at the same pace. Means we can have a sociable ride together.
Mrs Hoppy has an e-bike, we’ve set the support level to “make up the difference” so if we’re both going at the same perceived effort we go at the same pace. Means we can have a sociable ride together.
I do the same with my missus and my son....
The Ebike for US is an 'equaliser'... we're both working hard, both going the same speed (actually, she loves rinsing me on teh uphills...).. it's just MY hard is 400 watts, and her's is 120....
DrP
its a difficult one. (i dont own one, so take my musings with a pinch of salt)
As you say OP, they are becoming more and more prevalent on the trails. I have never seen someone blowing out of their backside on one. Half the time their saddle isnt even up, they are just hunkered over, using the motor to grind up the hills. Or crunching through gears whilst they change in turbo mode uphill. Or riding up trails the wrong way.
Thats not to say all ebikers are like this, just the ones i see in my local area.
As its been pointed out, it all comes down to what you want from it and what you put in. If you barely want to raise your heart rate, then you can just cruise in turbo. If you want to burn, you can put a shift in and use eco mode.
But if your other chums are just cruising and your giving it the Barry McGuigan, it will be you waiting at the top for them!
I’m somebody who enjoys other endurance sports like fell running, so I guess a bit of a masochist. There is something about that last 20% of a hard run/ride where you may have gone further or harder than you intended and and have to dig in and get home that I love. There have been many times I have thought ‘if I had a motor I would be on full assist’ but don’t have that option. Appreciate that isn’t everyone’s idea of fun but you simply will not build that kind of endurance if you have a bail out option. Unless of course you have epic mental strength to not use it when you are knackered, but then why would you have bought it?
This is no different to a mixed ability group ride and all the faster riders sprinting the top of each hill and waiting for the slower riders to turn up, total unsociable dick move on a social ride
if you don't see your group ride as a training opportunity on each climb tell your riding friends to stop doing it, turn their e-bikes down for the climbs or find some new riding friends
Just try it, you won't know for sure until you try.
For me personally, an analogue trail ride on an enjoyment scale to 10, it's mainly 5/10 (the riding around and climbing) mixed in with 8s and 9s/10 (the descents/fun trails/mucking about).
An ebike ride makes the whole experience a steady 6/10, so having a bit more fun more of the time, but never reaching those peaks of enjoyment i reach on a analogue bike. But then there's the "living with" experience that does me in, ebikes are noisy, munch through parts and are badly built, really effs me off as someone who loves a silent, smooth bike. Therefore the overall ebike experience for me is probably a 4/10.
I didn't find an ebike a leveller between fit and not so fit on ebike group rides, there's still the same amount of faff and waiting.
On a mixed group ride with me on an eebb, id just run ECO, chill, do the odd extra turbo lap, maybe do a bit of extra riding before or after meeting the group.
I disliking mixed rides where i'm on an analogue more and more, finding those riders i used to wait for when we were all on analogues, with them on ebike and me on analogue, really don't like waiting.
In terms of exercise/fitness, i can burn my self out equally easily on either type of bike. Observing others, the ones that never put in effort are still the ones that dont put in effort, the ones that used to put in effort, still do.
I do find i'm an outlier in terms of my opinions on this though, i do however have experience of riding both types of bikes for a couple of stints for at least a year, eventually being not interested in the ebike.
Obviously done tongue-in-cheek but can't help thinking that it would be tough going back to a regular bike if you solely rode an ebike.
This is no different to a mixed ability group ride and all the faster riders sprinting the top of each hill and waiting for the slower riders to turn up, total unsociable dick move on a social ride
It used to be that people would find their own pace, the faster riders getting to the top first. That's all fair and square in my book as there's always an option and a big incentive to get fitter. But an E bike is a different matter as however fit you are, you can still be beaten up hill by a one legged OAP riding an E bike. To be honest I'm fed up of always being at the back up the hills on group rides, despite probably being the fittest in our group. Hence I'm wondering whether to join them as it's all becoming a little demotivating.
uphills will become as much fun as downhills, and that I won’t get less fit because I'll ride a lot further. But is this actually true?
this is true for me - other people may be different.
i was quite surprised actually, when i built my singlespeed, as i was sure i'd be less fit but i'm not.
the eeb enables me to ride more. and have more fun. yes its a faff, built badly, sure to fail, and eats parts but its still great.
Depends entirely on how/where you (and your mates who you ride with) want to ride them. As mentioned, the absolute game changer is that you have a choice how you want to ride - you can leave it in ECO and get plenty of exercise, or de-restrict it and ride it about like a pedal assisted motorbike. It's the riders who do this that seem to get everyone's backs up though.
I look at it as ECO mode compensates for the weight of the bike and it's much more like a manual bike - the biggest difference though is that the momentum is maintained meaning less stress on the knee joints in the climbs. The Bosch motor for example will continue to turn the chainring a few degrees after you stop pedalling - this feature allows one some leeway when changing the "push" from one pedal to the other (I ride with flats) as it keeps the momentum going and I find it very gentle on my buggered knee.
I regularly ride my HT with a bunch of tri-athlete roadies, none of whom have an e-bike. We do 50-60 mile social rides every Sunday - I ride about in ECO mode and while I can keep up with most them on the hills - I do end up further back on the long flat roads where my gearing and lack of assistance above 15.5MPH means I am basically just riding a bike that weighs three times as much as theirs! When I started riding about 2 years ago I wasn't sure what sort of riding I would be doing, but thought mainly off-road. As it turns out I am doing 50/50 singletrack and road and I really need a road bike for this now...
Anyway, in terms of exercise, I aim to complete the rides in ECO and we do at least 1000m of climbing on most rides. When I get to the top of some of the steep climbs I am definitely out of breath - less so than some of them but more so than others so I am happy with the amount of exercise I get. My legs have definitely got stronger and I have lost 2 stone. I have no doubt that if I rode it about in Turbo I would get much less in the way of exercise obviously but that's not what my bike is for. It's overpowered for what I use it for actually but I do really like the Bosch motor and the way it feels.
I've owned an ebike for a couple of years now and have definitely lost some of my stamina from not riding my normal bike as much.
For the first year no one I rode with had an ebike, so I was always holding back and wasn't pushing myself to keep with the group. When my mate got an ebike I thought we'd do some big miles and start getting some fitness up, but to be honest he is pretty useless and just uses his ebike as an easy way to do the same riding he'd do on his normal bike.
When I'm on my own I push myself quite hard and definitely feel the benefit, doing bigger miles and many more descents. My technical skills have increased a lot due to being more alert for the descents and attempting bigger features.
My take from this is if your mates have ebikes and do big rides you'll stay fit. If it's a mixed group and all stop start then you'll lose fitness.
I had exactly the OP's dilemma & have ended up with a lightweight eeb. For me riding is sociable & is meant to be fun & I wasn't having fun any more breathing out of my backside all the time chasing my friends on eebs. I've done 30+ years on 'analogue' bikes so I have no guilt whatsoever in moving with the times & it has returned the fun to rides. Yes I don't get quite as sweaty & my heart rate doesn't peak so often but equally I find I'm more inclined to just pop out for a solo hour or so without fearing the final climb that all my rides from home entail & often stopped me doing that so I've found I'm riding a little more than I was which is better all round.
I'd look at the less powerful ebikes if I was the OP. I had a ride on a Levo SL and was blown away with the way it rode. Enough power for me feel like apologising when passing people.
I want to add tho, eco mode is still easier than a normal bike. There is still assistance. My ebike is a full fat 25kg enduro monster with DH tyres and I can still climb faster on eco then on a analogue trail bike.
Turning off the motor is an eye opener!
Ride a singlespeed, they are generally faster uphill than a geared bike, so you are not as far behind on the climbs, and just occasionally you get to overtake an ebike, especially if they are struggling on a technical section...glory makes the pain go away (momentarily)
read this bit
those of us on proper bikes
rolls eyes...
The eeb/neeb thing split our riding group from the get go. Wednesday nights became a flog yourself stupid keep up or die experience. Almost like there was an e-bike tax to keep riding with the group and exacerbated by the dick move of the ebikers wanting to be off again when the neebs arrived at the top. It wasn't fun or sociable at all. The end of that.
Upshot is I think riding with neebs only or asking for a bit of sensitivity from the eeb team to ride in eco or have a bit of patience. As mentioned above, on eco it compensates for the weight of the bike. On the uphill, eebs will roast you if they put the power on. Flat riding, you can roast them at 17mph the motor will cut. Its tricky when its a mixed group. Our all eeb new wednesday group is a workout of 2-3hrs, 1000m and 30 - 40 kms and we are all evenly matched.
FWIW, try one. Uphills assuming its tech eeb uphill, is rewarding and fun. An eeb will also crush long draggy uphill fire roads. Keep the neeb for solo rides, dont give it up.
Also any comment from half eeb and full eeb mixed groups riding together? Have a look at a Spesh Turbo Levo SL vs Turbo Levo youtube vid.
Can you not just form a splinter group with the other non-eebers OP?
Personally I'm holding off getting an eeb for a few years to see how the tech improves (and hopefully regain some fitness in the meantime).
For me personally, an analogue trail ride on an enjoyment scale to 10, it’s mainly 5/10 (the riding around and climbing) mixed in with 8s and 9s/10 (the descents/fun trails/mucking about).
An ebike ride makes the whole experience a steady 6/10, so having a bit more fun more of the time, but never reaching those peaks of enjoyment i reach on a analogue bike.
That sums it up for me, but I would say the ebike experience is more like a 7/8 out of 10. it would probably be less if I didn’t have great trails on my doorstep & a pick of the Welsh valleys to ride within 45 mins of home.
I’m happy enough to push out a 2000m vert day on the leg bike, but I’ll be pretty cooked from it, it takes a long time & I’m a bit more critical about the descent being ‘worth’ the 45min climb, whereas that is less of a decision on the ebike.
At Risca this weekend, I think we were in the minority on leg bikes & those on ebikes were probably lapping at double the speed we were. The other point to consider is in that area specifically, the up is a filthy climb on a normal bike & the easier route is probably a ~7km lap back up the forest drive, which is a massive difference. I still enjoy riding my leg bike more & ebiking has become more of a winter thing for me, but I don’t think I would be without either. If I was just on an ebike however I think my fitness would suffer a bit, but not as much as I thought - you can still wring your neck on one if you want to.
I ride mine in a normal group sometimes, generally with trail wheels/tyres on and in eco or switched off entirely (if I'm feeling fit).
It's been great to ride, my favourite being 1-2 hour self-uplift blasts, but mines just out of warranty and I'm not sure I'll be replacing it when it breaks. I can't justify a new motor every 2+ years, nor do I have a spare 5k or whatever for a Bosch one.
tbf to the OP, I also see a lot of people heavily dressed with full-face helmets on riding them when everyone else is in shorts/t-shirt
I don’t have an Ebike but I do ride them both up and down a fair amount. We also frequently ride in mixed groups. Lots of things come to mind:
I have no desire to get an Ebike, I love normal bikes and that hasn’t changed.
E-bikes can definitely be fun, although for me, a lot less so on the downs, and that’s on big travel enduro sleds.
A fair number of people seem to lose a lot of fitness when they get an Ebike. They don’t have to but they do.
We frequently use tow ropes on our rides, especially for places like Bucknell and sessioning trails like the GBU at FOD. Days like that make a non E-bike utterly superb; all the benefits of a motor and none of the disadvantages. We wouldn’t get a tow if we just go to places like Llandegla.
Our mixed rides are always great fun, but we treat it as a fun social as much as a ride.
One of my friends has got a good enduro bike to complement his Eeb, even though they are similar specs, his riding ability has come on in leaps and bounds in just a few weeks on the bike without a motor.
Have one. Have both. Have good friends to ride with. Have tow ropes. Have fun 🙂
eeb v neeb
analogue bike v ebike
I think Hobnob has clinched it, from now on I am riding/using the terminology of 'leg bike'!
on our mixed group rides, anyone on an ebike isnt allowed to ride at the front, at all.. they are free to divert and meet up again to take in a longer/different hill etc.
while in principle, you 'can' put in just as much effort, riding a 50lb bike, the expanding waistlines of those who have them demonstrate that given the easy option, most people take the easy option.
see also riding an actual SS bike, versus trying "just keep it in a single gear" - its just not the same.
eco, schmeeko, i took a mates for a spin round the outfield of the cricket pitch, which would be a grassy drag on a bike, the thing just wants to go faster. he has now taken 'eco' down to just 7% which he swears only just compensates for the added weight of the bike
we are having t-shirts printed saying "dont feed the ebikers" to ensure they dont get any snacks in the pub afterwards..
I reckon E-bikes and bikes are 2 different activities. Have one or the other or both but recognise that they don't mix easily in groups unless it's a small, friendly and patient group. The same goes for mixed fitness groups on regular bikes though and e-bikes can narrow gaps there as well as open them up.
Human nature as it is and MTB being what it is I still see the 'FS bike doing laps' side of MTB becoming a powered activity. Regular group riders seem to trend towards e-bike ownership at the moment rather than away from it.
My main concern would be that I would just be tempted to press full power all of the time rather than ever pedal hard.
I have found on ebikes I do both - pedal hard in high power.
It’s been great to ride, my favourite being 1-2 hour self-uplift blasts, but mines just out of warranty and I’m not sure I’ll be replacing it when it breaks. I can’t justify a new motor every 2+ years, nor do I have a spare 5k or whatever for a Bosch one.
Yep, this is a real consideration for me too. I have a borrowed 2017 Spesh Turbo Levo rehab tool here. It recently developed a proper wobble in the cranks. According to the Mission Control app it has covered just 1600km. It hasn't been particularly abused or jet-washed, or hose-washed, just ridden. The cost of getting a Brose motor rebuilt looks to be nigh on £400 or more depending on the damage - potentially less if it's just a trashed single bearing I guess.
It's basically an investment trap. If I don't repair it, I'm left with a pile of parts and a useless frame plus battery. I suspect that motor rebuilding services will become more common as more and more e-mtbs expire outside of warranty.
As to mixed group rides. My experience - Peak District - is that using Eco mode to stay with the group resulted in an average HR of 105bpm. Good for recovery rides though. And yes, you can still batter yourself on an e-mtb, but it's easier to do that on a conventional, leg-powered one. Oh, and they're irksome to lift over stiles - particularly tall ones - if you ride footpaths much, you'll get a good upper body workout though 🙂
It’s what the E bikers I ride with have said though, they are not less fit, just than an E bike allows them to ride much further.
I'm not sure I buy the "more distance, same time" angle still, I think the difference has to be rider fatigue Vs Battery life still.
If you go out for a human powered ride on your own you ride as far or as hard as your puny Human legs and lungs can take you. If you're out on your eeeeb you'll ride as far or fast as the battery allows, surely that means E-MTBer's have not pushed their physical limits as much as us luddites are kind of forced to.
I get the whole "I can go further (faster) in the same amount of time" point but surely that's more using it as a labour saving device for 'time crunched' MTBers, which is fine but it's just buying your way out of the "work"...
If you're out on an E-bike for a ride with non-e-bike riders how can that make you "fitter" you're riding the same distance as unassisted riders, but with assistance, by definition you're doing less work, surely you need to ride twice as much for the same exercise benefit, feels like the strange dichotomy at the heart of flogging E-bikes as a product for "Serious" MTBers to me...
Mrs Hoppy has an e-bike, we’ve set the support level to “make up the difference” so if we’re both going at the same perceived effort we go at the same pace. Means we can have a sociable ride together.
^^This feels like the best use of E-bikes to me. My own missus would definatly benefit from some assistance, she's not a "cyclist" does like riding a bike, but isn't going to bother if the pace or effort is even vaguely beyond her comfort zone an E-bike could address that and let us ride more together.
Keep the neeb for solo rides, dont give it up.
^^That's a bloody tragic statement! I know you're trying to sound positive but You might as well say MTBing is a lovely Socially inclusive sport, as long as you've got £6k+ plus to throw at the kit, paupers need not apply. The absolute opposite of what it's about IMO.
If you’re out on an E-bike for a ride with non-e-bike riders how can that make you “fitter” you’re riding the same distance as unassisted riders, but with assistance, by definition you’re doing less work, surely you need to ride twice as much for the same exercise benefit, feels like the strange dichotomy at the heart of flogging E-bikes as a product for “Serious” MTBers to me…
Well...if you were going to nitpick, you could - for example - blast every hill flat out then recover waiting at the top, so you'd be doing some sort of crude interval training. It depends on how you define 'fitness'. Likewise you could use an e-bike to be able to stay in zone 2 even on hilly terrain, so potentially derive benefits from that. There's an app for Specialized e-mtbs that'll even allow you to program the bike to keep you at a certain HR by varying power assist levels to suit.
If you rode at the same pace as non e-bikes, you'd be doing less work for sure, but if you desperately wanted to, you could probably increase some aspects of your fitness by riding in a certain way.
It's a bit like single-speeding in the sense that if you do a group ride with geared riders, although you notionally do the same, the gearing tends to mean you work harder on climbs, so you get a different sort of fitness from the same ride as a result.
So it depends a little on how you define 'fitness'.
I think Hobnob has clinched it, from now on I am riding/using the terminology of ‘leg bike’!
Yes, I came down here to say the same thing. Analogue has always grated for me.
'Leg bike'. Very good.
I have scanned a lot of this, and I find it odd that there is a disparity with pace between ebikers and regular. I ride meat powered with ebikers all the time, they just bimble along beside me at my pace, putting in a lot less effort than me. Seems fine, we are all happy campers.
If they naffed off ahead or pushed me too hard, then they either have to wait, not my fault, or we find other people to ride with.
OP, it sounds like you might be in a kind of club rather than a friend group, which to me is an awful idea anyway, just ride with your mates who will be more considerate of the social aspect.
EG I know that the ebikers do their own thing and hit a lot more descents when not with us regular guys, and sometimes on climbs with us they will say, ooh we are off to do that extra run xyz, will meet you acoustic fellows at the top. How is any of this an issue?
