[Closed] Dumyat. Another cracking descent gone....

Is the contractor McGowan by any chance? If so, the same firm is currently making a horrid mess of Coire na Ciste.
No comment from me on whether they should be taking down the old chairlift, but if the objective is to remediate the landscape they aren't trying asll that hard.

The emails are making a difference.
SPEN have agreed to a site visit to discuss the issues and have suspended work until then (I know it's a weekend but they did suspend work!).

Please also email your MSP and local councillor with your concerns. Then forward the email to customercare@spenergynetworks.com - making it clear it is a complaint. These SPEN emails are tracked and have to be followed up (they've been encouring everyone to use the majorprojects email which is not accountable). Thanks!

The works have been put on pause. They will complete the lower section they've dug up and showcase it and get public feedback.

Please continue to complain using the link above.

Thanks to the "old but fast, sanctimonious, BofA bikers" who seem very well connected. Our MSP Mark Ruskell was pretty helpful too, who happens to be a biker too.

Article from a local outdoors guy has been updated. It links to the plan for this path which needless to say had not been followed.

https://aye.tf/2017/09/07/thoughts-on-the-dumyat-path/

See the updated at the end.

this is the surface at Ben Vorlich that they are referencing

The picture is taken at the bit at 5:50 I think.

How far up Vorlich does that new path go.

quite far and they were still doing repairs when I was there last week. They won't be able to go much further due to the steepness though.

It made for a fast but uninteresting decent on that part of the mountain.

Dumyat Path -

the original tender pack states that the first sections (Sections 2 and 4) should be hand built only. These sections have been machine built by the SPEN contractor.

- Work has now been temporarily halted, thanks to the complaints, but we must make sure it does not re-start without adherence to the tender pack and best practice.

To complain, email as per the link for Customer Care North.
https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/pages/complaints.aspx
cc: Your MSP and councillor and the Chief Executive of SPEN: Frank.mitchell@spenergynetworks.co.uk

Photos from last night: http://bit.ly/2jdE87e
The Tender pack (located yesterday): http://bit.ly/2eUeIdC

I just don't get it.

They are destroying the hillside for the sake of what? Granted, too much erosion is a bad thing. But all they had to do was put a boardwalk section over the boggy area to stop that section of the hill path widening by people avoiding the bog.

To decimate the path like this is criminal. Where's the planning application, where's the joined up thinking!!!? It's nothing short of butchery. How come everyone else has to follow the outdoor access code / right to roam laws.....except for the digger driver!!

The tender pack actually sounds 'ok', the fact it isn't being adhered to is the major issue...building what appears to be a motorway to 'fix' a motorway is simply not a solution.
Contractor appears to be trying to maximise their income whilst minimising their outgoings.
All this as it was sold as a sweetener to allow the pylons to be built.

The tender pack is, emphatically, not OK. The stated objective is to mitigate the erosion on the hill. This is undoubtedly needed, [url= https://aye.tf/2016/10/07/debunking-the-mtb-impact-myth/ ]I have bitched enough about that over the years[/url], and would much welcome an intervention the would do that, but the path upgrade as planned will not, and it will make things worse in the long run.

Addressing the erosion on the hill requires addressing the specifics of the mountain bike use, that is the primary erosion pressure on Dumyat. If the path were to do that, it would require that bulk of the MTBs would be confined to it. This simply will not happen, the design is not bike friendly enough (drainage bars galore), and it obliterates the best bits from the MTB point of view, e.g., this has already happened on the first section. Folk will simply start looking for new lines on the hill and the erosion pressure will move elsewhere. Within a year things will be as bad, if not worse, as now, because at least the current line has naturally evolved along parts of the hill that are fairly hard wearing, none of the more recent strava lines fares anywhere near as well as the old path has done.

The other reason this will not work is because the path cannot accommodate the bike and pedestrian traffic at the same time; the linked video from Ben Vorlich illustrates this, there is not enough space for bike and pedestrians to pass safely, never mind two bikes coming in the opposite direction. Dumyat is considerably busier than Ben Vorlich even on a weekday, never mind a good weather weekend. Bikes descending at speed that sort of a path will simply increase the existing tensions between different user groups on the hill, and sooner or later someone will get seriously hurt -- the only reason this has not happened yet is because nowhere on the hill we are strictly confined to a five foot corridor.

In order to address the erosion pressures on the hill two things need to happen. First of all the sections of the hill where erosion is a serious environmental issue (as opposed to cosmetic one) need to be stabilised. This includes the two bogs (which ideally need proper boardwalks) and the rapidly eroding shoots below the summit and between the top bog and the small climb on the way down. Ideally, this would be done so as to keep this interesting enough for the bike use, though the priority in these sections must be controlling erosion.

Second, any mitigation measures introduced need to be such as not push the bike traffic off the existing lines elsewhere on the hill. By far the best way of doing this would be to construct a new path along a more contouring line for the pedestrian traffic (there are far better options for this than the 'high road' the tender is taking), and make it sufficiently bike unfriendly to disincentives folk from riding it; this is easily done through the drainage bar design alone.

Unless the above happens, this whole exercise is just paying lip service to some bureaucrat's idea of 'public good' that has nothing to do with the reality on Dumyat. So no, the tender design is not OK.

Bikes descending at speed that sort of a path will simply increase the existing tensions between different user groups on the hill,

PS - welcome to the forum.

I have a really cheap way of resolving that problem. It only involves a little brake pad material.

Meanwhile, back in the real world....

Well said tf01...I've been saying similar for years but not public for the roasting I was expecting for speaking out.

Glad someone else posted it up. We, as members, do have a responsibility and a lot of the time it isn't being taken seriously until something like this happens...

(I'm now expecting a roasting)

Meanwhile, back in the real world....

Access rights extend to cycling. Cycling on hard surfaces, such as wide paths and tracks, causes few problems. On narrow routes, cycling may cause problems for other people, such as walkers and horse riders. If this occurs, dismount and walk until the path becomes suitable again. Do not endanger walkers and horse riders: give other users advance warning of your presence and give way to them on a narrow path. Take care not to alarm farm animals, horses and wildlife.

If you are cycling off-path, particularly in winter, avoid:

going onto wet, boggy or soft ground, and
churning up the surface.

Well said KM - that and there is NO obligation to make paths MTB friendly nor should there be.

MTBers have the right to be on the hills subject to the usual "don't be a dick"

A path is bike friendly. When I decended Ben Vorlich I slowed down for people on the path. I had talked to most of them at some point and pretty much all wanted to see me come down (probably cause I'd fall ha ha ha ). I've had to stop on other places because people didn't move either on purpose or didn't hear me. I've met a few dicks decenting on dumyat, one guy sticks in my mind because he was wearing a FF and massive body armour. He hadn't even started the decent at he top and moaned because I was coming up lol

This is also a relevant article -[url= http://radventure.cc/andy-mckenna-a-guide-for-access/ ]http://radventure.cc/andy-mckenna-a-guide-for-access/[/url]

Congrats to TF, Callum, Crispin et all for obtaining a review period on this.
Curiously this months Scottish Mountaineer has an article on "sensitive" footpath building though the work is paid for by crowdfunding by MCofS/BMC and I suspect the tender package is largely based on this standard.

It is (reasonably) well accepted locally (including the LA) that this is a popular mtb route and I agree with TFs comments but it is hard to see were equivalent funding would come from to provide a separate mountain bike route though something the whole way down to Bridge of Allan would be a fantastic facility for the youngsters or at least those younger than old grumps like me.

Nice blog by the way TF - beautiful mountain photographs.

Could a dedicated mountain bike trail not be built? Use the new path to go up and a bike only trail to go down?

I'd give it approx 5mins until you found someone walking down it

YoKaiser - Member

Could a dedicated mountain bike trail not be built? Use the new path to go up and a bike only trail to go down?

for me thats a complete no

Thanks to the efforts of some well connected BofA bikers the work had paused. We're meeting with various authorities and the company building the trail tomorrow and hopefully some middle ground will be found for the rest of the trail.

Even if it doesn't work out, I'm sure we'll find a new "natural" route down. If there's one constant about the tourist path, it changes every year because of the mountain weather it gets.

The problem about putting in a dedicated bikers path is what then happens to the other one? Repeat this a few times and the end result is an end to path sharing and a severe curtailment of cyclists access. A few fannies, unable to accept their responsibilities, could screw it for everyone else.

If you want a dedicated MTB facility then head to Carron Valley, Glentress etc.

The real world is that if it comes down to a conflict of use between walkers and bikers going too fast then the walkers will win that argument. Under the access code bikers have a duty to give way to walkers ie being responsible.

Which was kinda my point. This is a very busy wee hill, though I've never seen any conflict riding there, some riders are dicks.

I have no opinion on the trail in question as I've never been. I did want to comment though that posting pictures of mountain bikers on both sides of the barrier as well as leaning on the digger inside the no-go zone is NOT a great way to look like responsible members of the public! If you want to be taken seriously, and not be ejected from even more trails then try acting responsibly.
Sorry for the rant, but this kind of lack of respect really bothers me as I remember how hard we fought for access to trails in the first place.

Aye, that's the biggest tragedy in this whole situation, people going the other side of a tape, and leaning on a digger that isn't running.

I don't know how those folks can sleep at night.

I did want to comment though that posting pictures of mountain bikers on both sides of the barrier as well as leaning on the digger inside the no-go zone is NOT a great way to look like responsible members of the public!

Absolutely, they should've gone around and created a new path

How did the meeting go?

I did want to comment though that posting pictures of mountain bikers on both sides of the barrier as well as leaning on the digger inside the no-go zone is NOT a great way to look like responsible members of the public!

A bit of red tape does not a no go zone make.

The moral debate was whether to drop a tollie.

😆 😆 😆

I love that word...TOLLIE. 😆

My point being the impression that gives of our community and it's lack of respect for others. With that attitude I'm on the side of the guys with diggers and would expect to lose many more trails. Surrey hills had some trails flattened recently too and that does appear to be down to lack of respect for others.

Aye, we got your point, and it was about as relevant as comparing this with what happened in the Surrey hills.

Weird because it looks like people are trying to negotiate with the council for better consideration of mountain bikers and their needs while some of those people have actively shown themselves to be self entitled nobbers with no respect for others in a public forum. Obviously I've misunderstood the thread though!

I wouldn't worry lusty. Nobrainsinthehead struggles with the concept of personal responsibility, and how the actions of a few give a negative impression of the entire community.

Which is why organizations can't be bothered to consult with them, and just get on it with. People ain't got time to deal with 12 year old children on bikes masquerading as adults.

Lusty - YHou are right but its a tiny irrelevant point and there is no comparison with the surrey hills because of right to roam and its not an illegally built MTB trail - its just a path

Right to roam isn't the same as the right to dig trails though, so from that perspective it's identical. You're allowed to be there but technically digging is still vandalism, surely?
Regardless, it's better to act nice and be responsible so that when we need to negotiate we actually have a leg to stand on.

You're allowed to be there but technically digging is still vandalism, surely?

Lusty - no one has been digging trails. This is an eroded path on a popular hill. It needed erosion control measures. the arguement is about the fact its been done by contractors in the wrong way not even adhering to the specs they were given and some believe even the spec was wrong.

So nothing like the illegal trailbuilding on Surrey hills !

The work has been halted until Friday.

This is not a mountain bike trail. This trail "The Tourist Path" has been there since the Sherrifmuir road was built over a 100 years ago. Some of the trails we ride on up there were made by the local Maeatae tribe who were kicking Roman ass in the 2nd century AD.

We don't really have "mountain bike trails" in this area. We don't need them. The Land Reform Act specially allows mountain bikes to ride pretty much anywhere in Scotland - excluding golf courses, gardens and nuclear reactors. We just have multi-use trails for everyone - on foot, maxxis or hoof.

There are great dedicated mtb trails in Scotland - come and visit, but be sure to add some wild trails into the mix.

Nobrainsinthehead

😆 😆 😆

^^^ what a great post lusty, I'm calling him that from now on 😀

It wasn't lusty ya roaster! 😆