[Closed] Downsides to single pivot All Mountain frames/bikes? (Orange 5 riders)

They ride better than they look like they should.

They sound like a bag of spanners.

Santa Cruz riders will look down on you.

downhill beautifully
Uphill a little bobby [compared to a DW link or a VPP frame]but you get used to it

Orange 5 bearing changes are an absolute dodle to do yourself as well if that matters

EDIT: I have an orange 5 and a Blur 🙂
I prefer the former downhill and the later uphill

Your rear suspension and rear brake don't work properly at the same time.

This may be a unique situation not really encountered in the uk too much but i'll say it anyway, I have a single pivot 200mm travel rocky mountain flatline and split pivot 140mm Devinci Troy, used the troy in the bike park for the first time last weekend and to my surprise found it considerably better over the braking bumps than the dedicated DH bike. so if you brake over bumpy stuff a lot, stay away from single pivot.

They bob if you leave the suspension wide open when climbing and you get a rocking horse effect if you drag the breaks downhill. They are also better than most bikes downhill and I'd have another in a heartbeat.

Oh and if you getting a five pay the extra and get the good suspension.

Brake jack, bad

Some interesting views there, I imagine I'd have a shock with a lockout on it which should make climbing considerably easier. I'm used to dh bikes with single pivot if it's comparable? Should hopefully not notice the brake jack unless it really is that bad?

I rode a five for years and never noticed brake jack. I think it's one of those things that only really exists on Internet forums.

If I got a five again I'd go with a cc with climb or the coil. Don't get one with the fox ctd evo rear can, even though the lock out is great for climbing it is a really poor shock

I've currently got an X fusion basic shock on my commencal so even the fox would be an improvement I think.

You have to remember that the vast majority of Five's are pootled around in sterile environments by beardy old men who never get off the ground. Therefore it's perfectly understandable that they won't know what brake jack feels like or ever experience any other limitations of the format.

Aaaaaand, I'm out of here 😉

Edit:

They are also better than most bikes downhill

Massively false statement.

They feel like a pogo stick. Uncontrolled damping even with a top end shock set up correctly. A climb switch just masks the problem uphill.

They feel like a pogo stick. Uncontrolled damping even with a top end shock set up correctly

I had a 224, the brake/suspension feedback was pretty unmissable tbh. Didn't really bother me that much but I can see why it could. Anti-squat annoys me even though apparently everyone else thinks it's good, so, there's presumably personal taste in these things. Probably more important is just that there's a limit to what you can do with suspension rates on a single pivot, you've got less variables to fanny about with and so less control.

These threads tend to degenerate mostly into arguments about what "brake jack" actually means. I think it's a term misused, people essentially just mean "stuff acts differently when I'm braking", they don't care whether it's jack or squat or sensitivity or chain feedback or what. And then people respond "But there's no such thing as brake jack!" and fixate on the proper definition rather than what people are actually getting at.

TBH I was a lot slower on it than on my Herb with its rearsprung deutsch technic, clever linkage driven singlepivot, but I had more fun on the 224 so take that science! Orange geometry tends to be very good, there's other stuff I disliked, I'd love to take the basic numbers of the Five 29 with a horst link equivalent to my old Hemlock and see if it worked the same, or better...

They are also better than most bikes downhill

Absolute cobblers, that. How many single pivot bikes do you see on the World Cup DH circuit these days?

Owned a Patriot once, albeit with a less-than-amazing Manitou Swinger shock. Brake jack and climbing bob certainly existed for me.

The strange thing is that, if you model the behaviour in linkage analysis software, plenty of single pivot bikes exhibit less bobbing under pedalling than many four bar designs and almost none of them have any brake jack at all (though they all have brake squat - but so does pretty much everything else).

I'd ride one before you believe the urban myths...

To be pedantic it doesn't jack under braking, it squats just like most designs.

I'm selling my Five, but only because short travel 29ers suit my mincing better. To be honest I thought the single pivot was the least interesting thing about the Five. Other than bearing changes, which sounds trivial but really is an advantage, it just seemed to be a non-issue.

As long and you sit and spin your way up climbs it climbs just fine. I'm 50 was still usually in the top 20% on most Strava climbs, so it can't be that bad.

What makes the Five such fun though is the geometry. If I were after a small wheeled all mountain bike I'd definitely be looking at the new one.

Rarely suffered with any brake jack (and only then made worse by me going to put in a half pedal stroke whilst the rear brake was applied.....ie the main occasions I can remember any jack of any sorts was down to my bad barking technique into existing braking bumps.......and weight wise I'm at the extreme and my Five AM with Cane Creek DBA is fantastic....sit and spin on the climbs no bobbing because I set it up right!
I've ridden four bar linkage bikes and hard tails......you adapt to what the bike will/won't do and don't get too hung up on it.....I went for a Five as I like the agricultural style of the build and the simplicity over multi linkage maintenance!

I took a 224 world cup for a season in Whistler. Size, geometry and components were perfect but it was an absolute donkey to ride.

I came home with a Demo 8.

I have tried a few and always moved them on pretty quickly. Spent plenty of time messing around with shocks and settings but as above I think they feel like a pogo stick. Just up and down and nothing else. I won't have another one. The last full sussers I have owned and liked have been a specialised, a giant trance with maistro, an anthem with maistro and my current nomad with vpp. Even my anthem with the bottom of the range monarch shock behaves better than any single pivot I have owned or spent time on.
My thoughts were confirmed a couple of weeks back when someone I met whilst riding asked for s go on my nomad. I rode his orange 5 up a steep hill for about 5 minutes and then on some downhills. I couldn't wait to get off and even he said his own bike felt rubbish when he got back on it.

I got one (a 2010, which i still have & have no intention of changing) & gave my mate a go & he got one as well. Now Steve doesn't do STW, but some say.....'his father was a mountain goat & his mother was 'nifty' at descending'. He says It's the best bike he's ever owned (It's certainly the best I've ever owned) He's got the standard shock on his but with 150 forks. The stuff he climbs leave me in despair.
My next test ride will be on another 5. (if I even do another test ride)

Downside

Sant cruz owners will deride you ,Even though you have probably spent the same on finance as them.

Most people IME who complain about pedal bob when going uphill, or, strangely enough, pedalling, do so because of their poor technique.

As suggested above. Go ride a few single pivot bikes and find out for yourself if you like the feel of them. No absolutes, it's all subjective! Again...

What about heckler owners?

What about them? I rode a Superlight for 12 years and I liked it.

Much like kissing a girl 😉

Own a SC Heckler (single pivot) and demoed a Bronson recently, which is basically the same geometry just with VPP and a carbon frame. It was no better on the downs and only a little better on the ups, so I don't reckon that the single pivot was a substantially worse option!

On the other hand, the nomad I demoed was in another league...

Had my Fox RP23 PUSH tuned by TFtuned, made a huge difference to my Orange five.

Had my Fox RP23 PUSH tuned by TFtuned, made a huge difference to my Orange five.

The biggest issue with many single pivots is that the linkage has a falling rate, so with modern linear air shocks you're battling to achieve good small bump behaviour and not bottoming out on larger hits. A small volume air can helps but you're relying on the spring to slow down how fast you go through the travel, whilst a linkage with constant or rising rate will push more oil through the damper as you go deeper in the travel.

A custom shock tune or something like a CCDB will transform the suspension behaviour.

The current Orange DH 322 frame has the pierced downtube to fix the falling rate of the 224.

My Mount Visions are bloody excellent . I've not ridden any other full sus that's as good.
And that is science fact.

I have nothing against hecklers as I have never tried one. Just making a point to the person above who said Santa Cruz owners will deride you.

i have a five and a chameleon. i deride myself.

How will I know when I'm getting this brake jack then ?
Might be a filing cabinet but can sure fly with this fat old mincer aboard. 🙂

You have to ride one. Whatever single pivot bikes do, some people don't mind, some people do. I enjoyed my 5, and I still enjoy my Patriot. That's all a bike ever needs to do.

5 owner for 4 years here, love it!

Properly good at smashing through the rough stuff but with actually letting you know what's going on at the same time. A good rear shock is definitely the key to unlocking the potential. I've got an RP23 (pre-CTD) and have had it tuned to suit me as I couldn't afford a CCDB at the time. A CCDB is better but not by enough for me to swap over With a 32T ring on the front it hardly bobs on the climbs, good technique helps but I get more bob on my Fuel EX!

Brake jack: yes it does do that but you just learn to use it to your advantage. Helps flick the rear round or get it loose when required. Also stops you dragging the brakes 😆

They are a marmite suspension design so you do need to ride them to see if you get on with them.

Brake jack: yes it does do that

You mean the suspension extending when you brake?

Ive had probably every incarnation of suspension design. Most are good these days, with single pivot being no exception. My personal opinion is that geometry rules, and you can have bad single pivot, split pivot, DW link, 4 bar or whatever, or good. A suspension design is nothing if the geometry is cack. Orange always feel great to me.

As much as people bang on about brake Jack, it's mostly tosh; I believe most people mistake brake Jack with the rear stiffening under braking, which are two seperate things. I could say that 4-bar Horst link bikes feel dull, or DW link lack small bump sensitivty, but it's focusing on problems that don't really exist (or matter) - you'll soon get used to any quirks and adapt. My advice is to demo some bikes of all types and buy the one that feels right for you, regardless of its suspension design.

I love a good orange 5 thread. Just have a go on one and decide for yourself. It's pointless asking about them on here.
For example, I wouldn't bother with one, rode one didn't like it. But lots of folk love them, can't understand why, but they do.

+1 Mildred

I have a patriot with ccdb coil and it climbs brilliantly sat down.

Also descends beautifully and handles great too.

Main drawback is the price of oranges for me. Couldn't afford an alpine of I wanted one.

Love my 2011 Five, going to get a new one in the spring. Never had any noticeable problem with the rear brake geometry and I ride any where from XC to Welsh trail centres to the Alps. Very much a Marmite bike so you will get lots of [s]hate[/s] dislike on here.

Used to have a Stumpjumper, 12 bearings to change. Orange Five, 2 bearings.

No noticeable problems?

I remember arguing the merits of single pivot vs multi link with GW 12 years ago on bikemagic. Nice to see nothing has changed. Back then, I was pro single pivot, he was pro multi-link. I realise now that he was right. At the time I lacked the experience to identify the traits of single pivots that weren't so great.

Scienceofficer - Member

I remember arguing the merits of single pivot vs multi link with GW 12 years ago on bikemagic........I realise now that he was right.

ssshhhhh, he can still hear you!

It galls to admit it.

I had an orange alpine five for several years it was great (coil front and rear) I now have a morewood sukuma, its a better bike in most situations but I'd have the orange back if I was going to the alps.

Both bikes ride differently with different sized chain rings. The five was hopeless with a double and a 32T middle ring. Pedalling downhill stiffened up the rear. I switched to a 36T the chain ring which intersected the middle of the pivot and the bike rode very differently. I've only run a 38T ring on my sukuma, picked partly because it intersects the main pivot. Bike magic slated the bike when they ran a triple. They said that pedalling effected the suspension in granny/middle.

I'm not an engineer but it seems it's really difficult to design a bike that works with a variety of set-ups (single ring, double or triple), though with the move to 1 x 10 and 1 x 11 I guess this is getting easier.

Just up and down and nothing else.

I hate that about all suspension. No in and out or side to side.

What are Orange thinking?

Best to test ride. Had Orange 5 RS for a year and it's fab. Bit ugly but in past year ridden Alps Snowdon BPW Antur etc and rides them all very smooth. Very simple, respray and bearings for £200 off Orange! You love them or hate them. I have big love for them.

I ride a 5 and I really like it, climbs better than the Giant NRS it replaced but then that might be because I am a little fitter 😀
It goes up hill as fast as I can pedal, the suspension moves when I go over bumps, it slows down when I apply the brakes and generally it goes downhill as fast as I dare. i have hit things on it and thought 'oh sh!t' then moments later have had a big grin on my face because I got through/round/over whatever the thing was, ie the bike is better than I am as a rider. I dont know what brake jack is but have never thought anything was 'strange' when braking, I do know what bobbing is but have always thought that if the suspension didn't move during a climb then all those lumps and bumps would be transmitted in to my arse or maybe thats how it should be 😉

As said above, go ride one, if you like it buy it, if you dont go try something else, then go back and buy the Orange 😆

I've had four Orange's. I had a MR.O, the original Patriot, the aforementioned 224 and a long term loan of a Five.

I think they were good bikes back in the days when everything else was pretty horrible. They at least had simplicity and reliability on their side. Now almost everything else available is better. From performance, to weight, to styling.

I really want to like Orange. I love the British manufacturing and everything. I just wish they would join us in the 21st century. I don't understand why they can't get some nice tubing and drop the hideous folded sheet metal process. Nicolai have a similar set up and they can turn out anything they want.

EDIT:

It goes up hill as fast as I can pedal, the suspension moves when I go over bumps, it slows down when I apply the brakes and generally it goes downhill as fast as I dare. i have hit things on it and thought 'oh sh!t' then moments later have had a big grin on my face because I got through/round/over whatever the thing was,

But that's just what mountain biking feels like!

Bollocks

weight wise Turner burner frame set is 7.1 lbs,
Carbon RFX frame is 6.7 lbs as is the new Evil Insurgent frame, both the latter are carbon, and no lighter than an equivalent Five frame.

I think the new five is possibly the best looking trail bike on the market right now.

Lovely proportions with that new longer top tube.

All subjective though obvs.

its ugly but who cares as I am riding the bloody thing not taking pictures of it and admiring its looks

Its industrial charm has grown on me to be fair but its no looker.

When skill fails hold on don't touch brakes and let the Five Do its thing!

^^^^ that's exactly how to ride a five. Get one don't be talked out of it.

Absolute cobblers, that. How many single pivot bikes do you see on the World Cup DH circuit these days?

Quite a lot actually

let me see....Nukeproof (the go to privateers bike), Lapierre, Transition, Konas etc

Those bikes have linkages so not quite in the same vein.

Those bikes have linkages so not quite in the same vein.

The anti-squat, anti-rise, kickback and wheel paths are all the same for a simple single pivot or linkage driven single pivot if the pivot point is in the same place. The extra linkage simply changes the leverage ratio on the shock.

Happy to admit that single pivots might not be the optimal performer. Reliability, forgettability and get-out-and-go much more important to me. My spanner skills are shameful though.