hora - Memberuser-removed - your assuming that you are the fastest rider on the trail as well? What if someone comes up behind you to overtake? How do you recall your dog?
user-removed - MemberMy dog [b]doesn't[/b] get to come with me to my (very rare) trips to trail centres
I suggest you go to the doctors ASAP as you're obviously suffering from dog aids of the brain.
terrahawkMore rules, that's what we need.
On reflection, I think you're right. We should free ourselves from this rigid way of thinking. We need less rules in this potentially lethal sport we all love.
In fact, I'm off to book another trip to whistler. Think I'll take a toddler with me, someones toddler, and strap him into a child seat so he can enjoy the trails. I'm sure he'll love Schleyer, but not before I smoke some crack and drink a bottle of Tequila.
I wonder will I be able to get Buddy, my pet attack Hyena into the chair lift with us.
More rules, that's what we need.
No, what we need is more common sense and consideration for other people.
quite so. Here here. Live and let live. If there's a dog "in the way" why not just wait a minute?No, what we need is more common sense and consideration for other people.
Its good though that the people with dogs are willing to pay for any damages or loss of earnings they might cause to other riders due to their dog 😉
Me and Bingo captured by SFB at Rivi 😀
[img] 
[/img]
Even a hard hearted dog hater like me melted a little to see the border collie enjoying Laggan! Big air off the jumps, railing the berms and not getting in anyone way at all.
I have zero problem with a well trained dog under control no matter where it is.
In fact, I'm off to book another trip to whistler. Think I'll take a toddler with me, someones toddler, and strap him into a child seat so he can enjoy the trails. I'm sure he'll love Schleyer, but not before I smoke some crack and drink a bottle of Tequila.
I wonder will I be able to get Buddy, my pet attack Hyena into the chair lift with us.
At the moment, you're perfectly entitled to do so (apart from the drugs bit, which you're not). Let us know how you get on, like.
quite so. Here here. Live and let live. If there's a dog "in the way" why not just wait a minute?
Ah, dogs...the Nissan Micra of the trail centre 😉
quite so. Here here. Live and let live. If there's a dog "in the way" why not just wait a minute?
Don't mind waiting a minute - just don't like being surprised by dogs running out in front of me when going fast on a bike, or having them jump up at me. Hardly unreasonable is it?
If there's a dog "in the way" why not just wait a minute?
8/10 for the troll.
A friend of mine had to slow down at Lee Quarry last week as there were sheep all over the trail. It must have cost him vital seconds.
If he'd had the presence of mind to remember his dog, he would not have had this problem.
8/10 for the troll.
uh?
I have zero problem with a well trained dog under control no matter where it is.
Anywhere? I assume you are not being literal. I can think of many places I never want to see a dog no matter how well trained it is. Sat on my head right now for example
Trail centres Terrahawk ..not windswept desolate moorland 😉
Trail centres Terrahawk ..not windswept desolate moorland
Quite. It's about dogs on the blue and red, not the canal path.
However, I recall being hemmed in by approx 130 highland cows on one ride last year...yeah well,you had to be there to see how it happened. Flow was FUBAR that day.
O/T: Cows? **** they can be a scary beast to deal with. Couple of rides (funnily with Pook) and they are with calf so highly protective. One instance another unrelated cow started to approach us from the rear. Then there was me legging it across the moorland at an oblique angle as the cow and calf were blocking my escape!
stilltortoise - Member"I have zero problem with a well trained dog under control no matter where it is".
Anywhere? I assume you are not being literal. I can think of many places I never want to see a dog no matter how well trained it is. Sat on my head right now for example
[img] 
[/img]
I don't see the problem? You see the well trained dog is leaving his beer alone.
Yep, that was the same situation, only on an epic, John Wayne scale! To avoid confusion, I should stress that the cows weren't at the trail centre.
could I also add that no cows were harmed in the production of my anecdote.
I don't see the problem? You see the well trained dog is leaving his beer alone.
I love the internet. There's a picture to be found for every occasion
😆
This was done a few months back and I haven't read all the posts but I think like most if the dog is under control and poses no threat to the enjoyment of others riding then its a good thing.
I take my lab to trail centres all the time, mainly mid-week though as trail centres are horrible places to be at weekends anyway!!! 😉
He's good, always stays out of the way, comes when told and its a great workout for him. Just an extra water bottle in the camelbak to give him half way round and thats about it.
Good times.
STW Revolva-topic #32.
My Springer/Lab cross comes uot with me on trail centre rides when I'm pretty sure it will be quiet, and the same for longer stuff locally, SDW etc... I wouldn't hit Cwm Carn on a Sat or Sun with him for example.
I'm fully in control and can stop him from a dead run to a sit in the time it takes him to decellerate. However, I don't like riding myself when there's loads of others on the trails so I don't see why I should subject him to the same.
The only time he tends to get in the way is not when we're out on the bikes but when I'm bouldering as he likes to sit on my crash pad!
I think some people need to relax a little bit and realise that the trails weren't put in for their exclusive enjoyment. I don't want to have to slow down for some poncy bike riding mincer who's obviously spent too much time on the internet and too little on the bike. I still have to if I ride at 'conventional' times, hence my preferred riding time of zero:dark hundred or rainy Thursday mornings. I don't expect IT types get time off then so I work around them. Maybe some of you should consider some sort of understanding of the concept of sharing or just remember that life should be filled with joy not bile?
I don't want to have to slow down for some poncy bike riding mincer who's obviously spent too much time on the internet and too little on the bike
just remember that life should be filled with joy not bile
😆
Quite. It's about dogs on the blue and red, not the canal path.
which canal path? I didn't say anything about a canal path.
I think some people need to relax a little bit and realise that the trails weren't put in for their exclusive enjoyment
Isn't that exactly the argument that crops up on here time and time again? I.e. trail centre trails maybe should be for our exclusive enjoyment, whilst we share the bridleways, BOATS etc
We all expect other [i]bikers [/i]on a [i]bike [/i]trail, we don't all expect dogs.
This is just another circular argument. The dog owners who ride with their dogs will say, like me that they are in conrtol, they make sure they aren't in anyone's way etc. Then the dog owners who don't ride with their dogs will say that they think its a bad idea. The non dog owners will either not care and therefore not reply or even read the topic and those who have had a near miss or run over a big slimy dog egg will argue with different levels of vitriol that dogs shouldn't be allowed on the trails.
Me? I reckon that pheasants should be banned from them. The only thing alive I've ever hit (well, apart from flies, wasps and once 2 of my mates...) was a pheasant and by god the mess was awful. Trashed front wheel, buggered forks; RST Mozo Pros - blood got past the seals and into them! (Maybe more to do with the crap seals but I digress.) Maybe deer should be banned too? I've seen a few of them about on trails and don't get me started on sheep!
Reminds me why although I've been a lurker on here since the early days of the old forum my posts probably number less than 20. The OU must be delighted to have so many students on their 'Bloody/Closed minded argument' course, is it a dual qualification or just one certificate?
Oh, Mangatank. I see what you did there. my pot has been wondering where that kettle had gone. 😉
No one is daft enough to think we can remove all risks from riding at trail centres. Ice, mud, other bikers, deer, pheasants are all the kind of thing we would be annoyed at hitting but can hardly complain about it (well, maybe bikers!). We - as dog owners - have the power to keep dogs off them tho'. The debate is, should we?
We all expect other bikers on a bike trail,
not on [b]designated[/b] trails
All just a misunderstanding of our wonderful language.
I think you are getting "designated" confused with "dedicated"
What about horses? Colleague is a keen horse rider and goes out with her boyfriend on bridleways - him on his bike.
Would anyone object to them pitching up at GT or Afan?
A few weeks ago I stopped my bike for two Collies and a lady walking in horse riding gear. All I did was say 'hello' to the collies and one immediately jumped up into my arms and stuck its tongue down my throat. I was sat on the bike with arms full of Collie 😆
"We - as dog owners - have the power to keep dogs off them tho'. The debate is, should we?"
Something I think each individual has the responsibility of deciding given their own unique circumstances I think.
I am happy with my choices (that's why I made them) and can understand why others choose otherwise. I think it's a shame that such mundane things can get some people so worked up. Magnanimity would seem to be a scarce and sometimes scorned thing hearabouts.
As I've already said I avoid riding at 'peak' times because I enjoy the feeling or solitude when I'm shredding my gnar on a sweet peice of trail, hound in close persuit. Maybe it's some sort of primal endorphin hit from the vague feeling of being persued by a wolf or something, makes me feel more 'alive'. The presence of loads of others on clattering bikes with labouured breathing and the rustle of man made fibres eminating from them isn't my ideal accompaniment but I don't get upset if I'm not alone, I just live with it and accept that the moment will soon pass.
In such spirit I suppose that some of us will always disagree and as such there's little point in this debate. The internet would be so boring if everyone thought like that though, wouldn't it?
What do trail centres say on the matter. Would be interesting to hear their views of dogs unsecured on trail centre trails.
Your answer lays there. Can't you run your dog somewhere else? Or are you armouring up in the carpark next to your Warrior pickup and unloading your trail dog ready for a session? 🙄
Stop watching those biking lifestyle vids folks.
And, seeing as the OP was on about Glentress,
doesn't "Right to Roam" come into it.
Just because someone has made a new [s]trail[/s] path, designated a colour and given it a silly name - doesn't mean it's not available for all to enjoy...
...enjoy 😆
rkk01 - Member
And, seeing as the OP was on about Glentress,doesn't "Right to Roam" come into it.
"Right to Roam" is English legislation and does not apply in Scotland. However, the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2004 provides for [i]responsible[/i] access. The question here is: how [i]responsible[/i] is it to allow a dog to use a designated mountain bike trail. I'd argue that it's just as [i]irresponsible[/i] as a chapter of the local Ramblers Association walking up the Spooky Woods descent.
"Right to Roam" is English legislation
Ah, @rse, it's Friday afternoon - but you clearly saw through my error....
Yes, it would be irresponsible, no I wouldn't take my dog to a trail centre, but the point of the thread - as always with these topics - no, they are not (legally) dedicated trails for mtbers....
rkk - in Scotland its debatable :-=)
There is a provision in the LRA for "land set aside for a specific purpose" ie horse riding gallops to be exempt from the access rights - altho I think you have to apply to a sherrif for the exemption ad no one has done so - so its not clear if it would be granted for MTB trails.
teh other aspect is the "reasonable" qualification. I doubt horses on MTB trails would be reasonable - but dogs?
A debate to be had with no clear cut answers
Is it me or are some people missing the point (or maybe I've just invented my own point now - wouldn't be the first time)?
As far I know there is nothing stopping a dog/walker/horse going on a man-made "trail centre" trail, just a few signs suggesting they perhaps shouldn't. Would all the "live-and-let-live" types on this post feel the same if you went down to GT/Cannock/Afan/Whinlatter this weekend and found the local stables out for a ride on Ned and his chums? Neigh, I think not (sorry, I'll get my coat)
Druidh - if the dog is under close control tho?
"Can't you run your dog somewhere else?" Yup, and we don't mind when bike riders use the footpath we're on. It's not 'cheeky' when we're walking. He prefers nice swoopy singletrack like me too, maybe I should have taken him on more doubletrack when he was younger.
"Or are you armouring up in the carpark next to your Warrior pickup and unloading your trail dog ready for a session?"
More dragging my battered singlespeed out of the back of the 90 and poking the dog out of the passenger footwell. Last time I wore armour was playing at knights as a kid 30 years ago. 😉 (emoticon I possibly should have used in my last post to indicate tongue in cheek)
TJ - The Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967 defines "under close control" as being on a leash or no more than one pace away from the human in charge. Assuming that we can ignore the leash idea on grounds of rider safety, I'd have no issues with a dog that close - I'd never cycle that close to another cyclist anyway, so the dog would never be in the way.
And frankly, given the skill levels of some riders, I'd never take my dog to a trail park in case it was injured by someone not riding within their abilities and/or stopping distance.
if the dog is under close control tho?
Ooh, I feel a slight twist in the argument coming up. Can a dog owner ever be 100% confident their dog is under close control at all times? Someone up this page somewhere has already said no. Children mauled by dogs who are "...always well behaved, honest your honour" would say no too. Mmm, me thinks I may have made too big a twist in the argument. I'm off
Would all the "live-and-let-live" types on this post feel the same if you went down to GT/Cannock/Afan/Whinlatter this weekend and found....
I'm not aware that it is about "how I would feel" or "live and let live".
My understanding (which could well be wrong), was that it was about the legal issues around liability / negligence for being in control (or not)etc.
I ride at Afan - I work on the basis that I am at least partly responsible if I hit another trail user through not being in control (ie not being able to stop / evade within my visible distance).
Whether they are a family having a toddlers picnic in the middle of Whites Level matters not a jot. Several times I have had stop for walkers hiking up the Wall final descent - bloody inconvenient, but (I believe) they had as much right to be there as I had...
As far as liability goes I would take responsibility foor my dog causing an accident (as opposed to just being in one) in the same way as if it was me involved. As long as that attitude is in place and the dog is allowed to be where we are, off the lead then I am confident that the chances of him causing a problem for other trail users is insignificant to the point of not being an issue.
He's my dog, I love him to bits. I certainly don't want to see him injured by colliding with another trail user in the same way as not wanting a farmer with a worried sheep putting a load of buckshot into him therefore keeping him on the lead when near livestock or on farm land.
We don't go to Cwm Carn with him anymore after checking with the visitors centre in March this year about sheep on the trail and being told that they were there.
http://mbwales.com/en/content/cms/Centres/Cwmcarn/Cwmcarn.aspx
People who ride the trails with dogs off the lead. Please feel free to contact the trail centres and ask if they allow your dogs onto the trail.
Would you do this? I'd be more than happy if the trail centres cameback and said 'no problem'.
Can you guess their answer or are you people who do this ignoring this question for a reason? 😉
Just no
To the OP, would you have happened to be at GT on Friday late afternoon by anychance? I almost mowed some chaps dogs over in the freeride park on the 3 dropoffs 😳
Got a bit sketchy 😯
Well, took my dog to Kielder to try the new blue route and ummm... didn't see another person there.
Not really a problem in that case so perhaps the usual STW black or white response to a discussion may not apply?
Yet again:
[u]Ask the trail centre if dogs are permitted on the trail and off the lead?[/u]
When we know the answer then you'll either know if its right or wrong huh?
I almost mowed some chaps dogs over in the freeride park on the 3 dropoffs
Well obviously you shouldn't have been going off the drop-offs unless you had first checked the landing for dogs running around. All your fault.
When we built the trails at Kielder we always had in mind that dogs would be welcome 🙂
I got bitten by a dog at FOD on Friday! The owners said it was my fault because the dog was scared of bikes!!
Why walk your dog in a cycling area!!! FFS!!!
They were downright rude! I did not get there details because i wanted to stop the bleeding so went back to the cycle rental place...
I almost mowed some chaps dogs over in the freeride park on the 3 dropoffsWell obviously you shouldn't have been going off the drop-offs unless you had first checked the landing for dogs running around. All your fault.
Was clear on the walk up!
There is no legal restriction to stop riders/dogs from using their trails- the key issue is whether the dog owner is being responsible.
If your dog causes and accident you could be liable. It may be argued that you (the owner) are held liable knowing how many others use the trails.
You (the dog owner) need to consider this if someone is injured, hospitalised or wheelchair-bound due to your dogs actions.
The RSPCA may also question running of a dog for a number of miles. Many officers take a dim view as they consider it is not natural for a dog to run on the trails for significant distances.
The bottom line is they can not stop you from taking your dog onto the trail but you must be aware of the potential legal implications as it could be deemed as not being responsible.
This is is a cut-down edited version as I do not want to publish and email sent to me onto a public forum. My emails in my profile if anyone wants to see the full email.
So, for me its a case of early morning/off-peak and the dog runs behind the rider not infront and the understanding (to me) 'causing an accident' isn't clear-cut. i.e. It might not just be simply running into a dog or swerving to avoid, or the dog acting as an obstacle on a section but also the dog suddenly appearing alongside a rider infront who is then startled and falls off?
Surely its better just to ride a natural/bridleway trail and let the purpose-built mountain bike trails to be used solely by mountain bikers?
" hora - Member
Yet again:
Ask the trail centre if dogs are permitted on the trail and off the lead?
When we know the answer then you'll either know if its right or wrong huh?"
Well, to save anyone else the hassle I have checked with (before visiting):
Cwm Carn, they are allowed but there have been a few problems with sheep worrying (not bikers dogs apparently but may not be worth the risk unless you are sure your dog is fine with the sheep)
Afan/Glyncorrwig, dogs are allowed.
Coed y Brenin allow them too.
All 'in control', so it comes back to the usual, if you can control your dog when off the lead you can let them run free, if you can't they should be on the lead.
Was clear on the walk up!
I was joking 🙂
Just imagining what the dog lovers would have said.
mattbee hence my post above. The question isnt sheep for me its a question of risk and the unforeseeable. Is this an acceptable risk?
TBH I stopped riding with our dog (small black lab) and I decided it was too harsh for her. A mate of mine rode with his black lab all the time and by the age of 2, it's hips were shot to pieces. Bike speeds are too fast for a dog IMO - any dog.
I run with ours a lot and that's a great pace for her - quick enough to keep her going, slow enough to not cause issues.
As for dog control - ours is very very obedient but you still need to factor in unexpected stuff when they are off the lead - a rabbit appearing, another dog turning up, etc - always keep them fairly close.
The RSPCA may also question running of a dog for a number of miles. Many officers take a dim view as they consider it is not natural for a dog to run on the trails for significant distances
mmmmmm so, something like a border collie - a working dog - should not be running for 10/15 miles???? try telling a farmer that 😯
I agree about he whole acceptable risk thing, but also think you can take it too far.
As I see it, as long as my dog is running in front of me, or in between me and my wife within a few bike lengths, I can control him. As such I choose trails more on length, substrate and proximity to water when we take the dog. As a side effect of my preference for quiet trails we are also rerely out at 'peak' times.
As with anything in life though there are those who do not take the same attitude to responsibility. I would be more concerned though by non widers/walkers with dogs on 'biking' trails as their dogs are more likely to react badly to bikes. At least my dog knows what happens when he gets too close to one!
mmmmmm so, something like a border collie - a working dog - should not be running for 10/15 miles???? try telling a farmer that
Agree but collies are not run consistently over a distance though are they?
Dogs are eager to please their master. For instance my dog- Bingo (possibly the leanest and biggest Westie that I have seen) would run beyond his capability to please me. So I always run him ahead of my bike so that he sets the pace. You couldnt do this safely at a trail centre though as the rider needs to see whats ahead first IMO.
🙄
cant be arsed with this...........
I was jokingJust imagining what the dog lovers would have said.
lol, I'm just too slow
i think its ace seeing dogs out on the trail and i always giggle when following my mates lab round a berm and it proper RAILS it!!! When I get another dog I will defo take it out with me!
We took my mate Ben's dog Jake out round cwm carn and brechfa and he was very popular, faster then 90% of people and is fixated on my back wheel so doesnt really get in anyone else's way!
Bike speeds are too fast for a dog IMO - any dog.
[img] 
[/img]
Hmmm, not for a whippet/greyhound. Haven't outrun her yet, and not for want of trying.
Our whippet would go daft if she didn't get a regular run with the bike. That being said I don't take her to trail centres, although I'm sure she would love it. I personally like seeing dogs out and about with MTBers, but would not want to impose ours on anyone who wouldn't share the same view.
I will never forget being up Minch moor on the Innerleithen red, in more than a foot of snow, in blizzard conditions, on the bike, suffering from the cold and seeing a wee Westy appear coming up the trail.
The snow was higher than the dog! Thought I was hallucinating!!
It was a couple of minutes before the owner appeared, on a Rocky Mountain Blizzard of all things!
Still one of the most surreal moments in my life to this day!
THV3 I would challenge that.
Whippets and Greyhounds are bred for short intensive bursts of activity and the last thing they enjoy (from what I have read/heard) is sustained exercise.
Of course they would outrun any cyclist but I suspect they would not be good over an extended period of even a few miles.
Of course you may know better.
its a judgement call, if its a weekend where its busy its a stupid idea, if its mid week and quiet its possible. Trail centres are designed to seperate user groups and avoid conflict, this is doing the opposite of that 🙄
Hi Surfer,
I am afraid what you have read or heard is not representative of the facts.
Racing whippets and greyhounds are indeed bred for short bursts of high speed. However, it is common practice for these dogs to do extended runs of 10 miles or more daily as part of their training regimes. Obviously these are not done at full speed.
I have been taking out our Whippet from when she was about 6 months, slowly increasing the distance in line with what she seems happy with. This started as a 2 mile cycle, and currently the longest loop she does is now about 14 miles at 18 months of age. She gets plenty treats, water and rest if she looks like she needs it.
The key as always is being sensible about it, and not doing to much for either the dog or the rider!
Thv3.
I see. I've never owned one so wasnt approaching it from personal experience however Daisy Duke has had a couple of rescue Greyhounds and a couple of Lurchers and is of this opinion.
I agree with you that training (as with people) is key to performance, although dogs have a head start in terms of breeding!
I ran with a friends fit looking Cocker Spaniel and it was exhausted after a couple of miles whilst my Lakeland will run for up to 10 miles easily!
Fantastic looking dog by the way!
[img] 
[/img]
Agree but collies are not run consistently over a distance though are they?
Really? Our neighbour ran his behind the landrover when it was younger, so it would cover 3 miles at car speeds, do a mornings work, run back, run out gaain, do an afternoons work then run home. He was even known too take himself for big walks if he got bored.
although dogs have a head start in terms of breeding!
I can't work out what that means 🙁 Is it a call to eugenics ?
I can't work out what that means Is it a call to eugenics ?
No because Eugenics only referes to the selective breeding of humans!
I was comparing the performance of dogs who are selectively bred over a relatively short period to be particulalrly good at a certain thing, fighting, running etc or simply to be big or small.
This means that greyhounds have a tendancy to perform better than Daschunds at running at high speed, nothing to do with fitness or training but largely due to one breed possessing physical characteristics that the other doesnt, in this instance long legs.
But you knew all that you just wanted to use the word eugenics didnt you.
But you knew all that you just wanted to use the word eugenics didnt you.
well, the use of the word 'head start' in that context made me wonder if you thought the same benefits should be extended (compelled upon) people ? Dogs do have an advantage at running around and barking at things but these are not traits highly valued in humans...
well, the use of the word 'head start' in that context made me wonder if you thought the same benefits should be extended (compelled upon) people ?
Why on earth did you think that Simon? What convinced you to make that leap from trail dogs and the relatively uncontroversial practice of dog breeding, to the selective breeding of humans?
I'm at a loss to see the link.
Could it be that eugenics is a bit of hobby horse of yours?
To be honest, it's cruel to dogs to keep up their's idiot/muppet owners on the bikes and it's dangerous aswell causing an injury either on dog or bike riders when things goes wrong. 😡
These people who do this should never be allowed to own dogs! 🙄
Could it be that eugenics is a bit of hobby horse of yours?
not that I've ever noticed...
Don't mind dogs but if they cause me to smash my full susser and breaking it or they attack me then the owner should be prepared to pay out or I am going to cook the owner and dog.
Aaah, the welcome return of reasoned argument to the thread.
To Whoever this concerns. If I break your dog by my combined weight of me & Mr Orange (bout 200lbs) or if me or Mr Orange are broken by your negligence in controlling your mutt....I won't be happy & WILL hold you responsible.
Well it did last a reasonable length of time before we heard the sound of dragging knuckles!
My Border Collies come out with me fairly regularly, but I'm not sure I'd want to take them to a trail centre unless I was pretty certain it was going to be pretty quiet. Biking with the dogs is great fun and in all the years I've had farm bred collies i've not had a problem. If you want a dog for this kind of thing, you need to get one from appropriate stock - I've seen the parents of my youngest dog work their way over the side of a hill to bring in sheep with a speed and grace that is breathtaking. Took me about 30 mins to get her running at the rear left of my bike and she falls in there on command now for roads or oncoming cyclists. That's the huge advantage of collies - quick to learn and love to work.
Aaah, the welcome return of reasoned argument to the thread.
It would appear that reasoned arguments fail with dog lovers whose animals are always under control and would never cause inconvenience to others etc. oh and love to run at 20 mph over rough terrain for hours and have done since birth.