The risks are the same, race or no race
Not really - firstly, as above, everyone's pinning it in races, and they are not expecting riders coming the other way or dog walkers etc. Secondly, the organiser has provided the course. When someone provides something on a commercial basis then they have a responsibility in law to ensure it's fit for purpose. If you build your own bike and it breaks, you're on your own. But if a manufacturer builds one and it breaks, it's their fault.
Same for a race. You provide it, you're responsible. It's a good principle generally. In the UK (not sure if this is the case everywhere) we have reasonableness tests which can invalidate things you've signed up for, which protect us. If you entered an XC race with a 100 mile course and it said 'you agree not to sue anyone if you crash' in the T&Cs you'd sign up, and you wouldn't pre-ride it cos it'd take too long. But then if the route went 50 miles into the wilderness and took you over a huge gap jump, the unreasonableness of this would probably override the T&Cs you signed up for (IANAL though).
This protects us from vague wording and technicalities that us as un-trained legal people may not spot even if we scrutinised the T&Cs, and it also acknowledges the fact that no-one reads them all anyway cos it's just too onerous.
There’s normally the Scott series but that’s not on this year or last. I feel marathons have stopped due to Covid and land owners not being compliant this year.
Can I ask which event and would you share any experiences of how you did it etc for others who might be thinking of giving it a try for next year? Finding a venue must be the hardest bit? I can’t think of anywhere big enough and privately owned near me
I get what is said about disclaimers, but as in the example I gave it's not necessarily down to the individual to give that away. An insurer may require you to try to mitigate losses, and put you in a position where you can't say you take full responsibility AND still expect insurers to pay.
And a disclaimer doesn't absolve the provider from all responsibility, there is still a duty of care and even if ultimately in the right could cause a lot of hassle in defending a claim.
Can I ask which event and would you share any experiences of how you did it etc for others who might be thinking of giving it a try for next year? Finding a venue must be the hardest bit? I can’t think of anywhere big enough and privately owned near me
Where is near you? You'd be surprised where events have been held, lot's of less well known bit's of private land have been used before now, Bowland Wild Boar Park was used for a Midweek Madness a couple of years ago and Waddow Hall Girl Guide Centre is hosting in a few weeks too. Courses don't always have to be restricted to existing tracks, this was pretty evident at this years Monstercross at Catton Hall Park, if it was dry it would have been great on an XC bike!
If I could post it, I have a great gif saying "Before you complain, have you volunteered?"
Our club organise CX races, TTs and hill climbs. I marshall to help out when I can, but the effort required to organise them is huge. One of our committee is an events organiser in their day job and has experience and access to kit but it's still a massive undertaking.
There's something about XC that seems to make it struggle. CX seems to flourish and do fine, but tweak the bike and course a little and it falls away.
And those questioning why insurance is needed should open their eyes and look around them. It's not just the competitors who might get involved. There's other people on the planet.
Bit of a flawed argument as there’s little chance of riding in your own race…
Mario Roma both organised and competed in the 24hr World Championship last time it was held (2019)
If he can do that...
The risks are the same, race or no race, so it’s not very logical for liability to change.
Ever raced? I had a stupid crash at SSUK 2019 which has left a scar on my arm. I just came over the top of the course, seeing red and trying not to vomit my lungs up let my front wheel drop off thr side of the slab of rock that made up the trail and impaled my elbow on a branch. Wasnt the end of the world and still carried on and finished but it could easily have gone worse if the tree hadn't caught me (it could also have got infected etc).
And that's just SSUK, it's very much a "mates" race. People still see red and do stupid stuff to make up one mid pack place.
And adults should be able to say “I accept full responsibility for whatever happens to me” without it being undermined. Disclaimers should mean something.
The problem is we sign those T&Cs without considering how they apply.
Got a mortgage? Credit Card? PPI? Home insurance? Health insurance?
We don’t sue the forestry every time we break a bone, do we? (I’d be rich)
Then if you crash, and don't work, and default on it, then the PPI company will sue the FC for it if they can see that the trail was deficient in some way.
If you crash, break your bike and claim for it on your insurance.......
If you crash, break yourself then likewise the health insurance does the same.......
Doesn't matter if you signed a disclaimer, those other contracts you're already in will still apply.
People still see red and do stupid stuff to make up one mid pack place.
Of course, this is the entire point. Otherwise, why enter a race at all? May as well just go for a ride.
Perhaps we make the problem worse by having insurance. If there is insurance you will claim, if there is not, you accept the risks you have taken.
For example: when following your mate on a bike ride and he takes you over a gap that you break your back on, you dont sue him. But you would attempt to sue an event organiser in the same situation.
Can we not organise a race where we explicitly do not accept any risks ?
For example: when following your mate on a bike ride and he takes you over a gap that you break your back on, you dont sue him. But you would attempt to sue an event organiser in the same situation.
Can we not organise a race where we explicitly do not accept any risks ?
That's the problem. It's not always gping to be the individual doing the suing, it might even be your employer trying to recover the sick pay that sues whoever built the gap jump.
And while you can sign a disclaimer, the 3rd party probably has better lawyers.
For example: when following your mate on a bike ride and he takes you over a gap that you break your back on, you dont sue him. But you would attempt to sue an event organiser in the same situation.
The relationship between you and your mate is different to that between you and a race organiser.
and would you share any experiences of how you did it etc for others who might be thinking of giving it a try for next year? Finding a venue must be the hardest bit? I can’t think of anywhere big enough and privately owned near me
You need to think about what you want to do before you ask, you also need to think about how you are doing it, is it all volunteers including you or do you plan to get some return, raising money for charity or planning to give it all away as prizes? It sets a context for the discussions with land owners. Local Authorities can be supportive others such as Woodland Trust are very unlikely to help
You will need lots of help, don't try and do it solo, you need a group with contacts and skills you don't have. BC will help if you choose to go that route, there are other ways of doing it
Almost any organiser will give advice just ask
Perhaps we make the problem worse by having insurance. If there is insurance you will claim, if there is not, you accept the risks you have taken.
For example: when following your mate on a bike ride and he takes you over a gap that you break your back on, you dont sue him. But you would attempt to sue an event organiser in the same situation.
Can we not organise a race where we explicitly do not accept any risks ?
We don't live in utopia so no we can't
Insurance also covers the unforeseen and provides a way of mitigating the impact of the unforeseen. If a third party is hit by a participant off the course who pays for the consequences and keeps roof over that families head?
Even if all the entrants are on board, it is still almost impossible to remove the third party element. I'm marshaling at Lee Quarry in 2 days. Public land. There is a bridleway through it, plus footpaths. Plus the complete spectrum of random people from dogwalkers to illegal MX riders.
I walked the Waddow corse with the organiser a few weeks ago. Totally private venue, but there is still a public footpath through the middle of site.
There are public footpaths and bridleways in our local woods, but now there are loads and loads of homemade MTB trails. These trails are now pretty well defined, which means they are attracting walkers. So even if you made your race course and added marshals at every point where a PROW crossed the course you'd still miss loads of walkers.
Imagine racing cars on public roads. It'd be an absolute nightmare from every angle. Bikes are less dangerous but can still be dangerous. Races need to be properly organised, I think.
We can crash into horses outside of races, and we can hurt ourselves walking down the street. Without insurance. I’m not convinced racing increases the risks.
I know the world is the way it is, but that’s no reason not to think it doesn’t need to be that way.
Those race organisers who get to ride their own race are very lucky. The organisers I’ve known have been way too stressed and busy. But I still don’t rate the “put on your own race then” argument. It’s not that simple.
I almost organised an xc event but it was too much effort and expense for the likely numbers.
Those race organisers who get to ride their own race are very lucky. The organisers I’ve known have been way too stressed and busy. But I still don’t rate the “put on your own race then” argument. It’s not that simple.
I almost organised an xc event but it was too much effort and expense for the likely numbers
A good summary of why there is a shortage of XC events.....
I’m not convinced racing increases the risks.
If you ride the same speed in races as out of races then you're either a hooligan or a really rubbish racer. What would be the point of entering a race if you were going to do that?
But again - the context is completely different. In one, you're doing something organised by yourself, the other you're doing something organised FOR you by someone else. The liability is different. The race organisers are liable in part for the things that the entrants do. And this is not at all unreasonable.
You can't say 'hey, everyone, come to the woods on Sunday morning and hoon around as fast as you can with loads of other people' then if a rider or bystander gets hurt say 'oh well, that's nothing to do with me'. That's ridiculous. It IS something to do with you because it was your idea.
Imagine racing cars on public roads. It’d be an absolute nightmare from every angle.
One observation is that all the posters that say insurance etc isn't necessary put together have organised exactly zero races for public entry.....
Just saying
Back to the original question, it seems very geographically variable. In the south-east, things like Gorrick are great, but its an area of high population density so even if only a fraction of riders want to race, that's still a lot. In Wales, numbers are pretty thin and its typically only the faster guys that race. Even before covid I was starting to question why I was travelling 2hrs to race against half a dozen others that I wouldn't see after the second lap. I guess with the amount of good natural riding, the idea of going racing to ride a good venue is less of a pull too.
I see that BC have recently put out a .pdf where they are indicating they want to get behind enduance mtb more, but it seemed largely like window dressing to me.
Hopefully the pidcock factor will boost cx and xc - is he going to be fit for the olympics?
Even before covid I was starting to question why I was travelling 2hrs to race against half a dozen others that I wouldn’t see after the second lap.
The whole age related classes that XC MTB dropped into is essentially bollox. It's designed to keep the regulars happy racing the same people they have for the last 10-20 years.
BC and MTB is mainly window dressing, none of the key staff are mtbers first, the model they operate on needs clubs and MTB riders don't in the main join clubs
Hopefully the pidcock factor will boost cx and xc – is he going to be fit for the olympics?
Does the UK have a place for XC?
One observation is that all the posters that say insurance etc isn’t necessary put together have organised exactly zero races for public entry…..
Nobody has said that though.
Perfect world. Private woodland. Own risk. Would be nice. Is all.
I’m far more of a risk chasing KOMs.
Cars racing on public roads? Er, amateur road rallying. No closures. Assume nobody else could possibly be on the road at night.
Molgrips. We’re talking xc, not enduro. Even if you do descend faster that doesn’t necessarily increase the risk. I rarely crash when racing because I’m concentrating. Public are less likely to stray onto a track with people coming down it, or tape along it, and marshals on it. Etc etc.
But the thread has strayed. I thought we were talking about grassroots xc, not just any xc. Grass roots for me would be marking out a course and getting 30 locals along one summer evening in a wood where there are no other users.
But the thread has strayed. I thought we were talking about grassroots xc, not just any xc. Grass roots for me would be marking out a course and getting 30 locals along one summer evening in a wood where there are no other users.
Just to develop this idea,
How do people enter? On the day, in advance, both?
Any categories? Any prizes?
How hard is your course? Gnarcore scale 1 to 10, and XC jeyboy climbing 1 to 10?
what is your first aid provision?
Are you bothering with marshals?
How are you tracking who is in the lead and the subsequent places? If it's electronic what is your backup system?
Which insurer are you using?
What happens when the weather is crap?
If you can answer them then congratulations you are a significant way to organising your first race, I look forward to reading all about it
Nobody is questioning the amount of work involved in organising a proper race.
Molgrips. We’re talking xc, not enduro.
I pin everything when racing, including flat singletrack and descents. Otherwise what's the point?
Grass roots for me would be marking out a course and getting 30 locals along one summer evening in a wood where there are no other users.
And we're explaining why it can't work well and it doesn't happen. If you race your own mates then that's somewhat different but still irresponsible and quite dangerous.
Cyclocross is more like what you are asking for, but the courses are usually rubbish and there's a reason for it - they have to use the edges of a park or school field or something because they need the private land and to have low risks.
People don't add bureaucracy and red tape for the fun of it. Bike racing started off the way you describe, and then it evolved into what we have today, for reasons. There are ways round it - like having an established regular venue with an established course and owned by a continuous business which I think is what happened at the ones in East London? If we had the numbers this would be a good model. It's a sporting venue like the velodrome or swimming pool etc.
Enclosed boundaries with no public rights of way are how CX can do it, but finding that big enough for XC is a tall order. The first Twentyfour12 was like that, but the course was very compact and a bit rubbish. It only stayed there for 1 year.
The smaller HTNs had a 3 mile lap with many rights of way across it. Closure notices (paid for) had to be placed at all intersection a week in advance, and on the day they had to be taped and marshalled. Before the start of the race you still got the odd arsehole who's god given right was to wander down that particular path, but once there were 200 bikes out it became obvious.
But the thread has strayed. I thought we were talking about grassroots xc, not just any xc. Grass roots for me would be marking out a course and getting 30 locals along one summer evening in a wood where there are no other users.
I did this sort of grassiest of grassroots racing a long time back, when I was working in the US - it was fantastic. Could maybe work nowadays but really depends on your locale and riding scene.
One obvious reason the one I did worked was the location - actually in city parkland but some sketchy woods that saw few recreational walkers.
The other big reason it worked was the involvement of all the local racers - I think it must have had a lot of history behind it. Maybe it had grown as part of the XC glory days in the 90s, don't really know, but you'd get proper strong riders coming out to race round a course marked out with sticks and stones, with no timing and just a rough idea of who finished 1-2-3.
Does feel to me like the time has past for that sort of XC thing now, tbh - sport is just in a different place, more fragmented. OTOH XC racing is hard AF, it's not something you can really do on a casual basis, so doing something low key like this might capture people's imagination.
As said above - just takes one self-serving dickhead and it's over.
XC is still happening and has really healthy attendance but the issue is that there just aren't enough organisers. I'm one of the organisers at the SouthernXC and on Sunday ran our 5th XC race of this year and it was the first that hadn't sold out (TBH that was because of a number of understandable reasons, most of which were our fault), the combined number of riders who we sadly had to turn away across the first 4 races was in excess of 600 and my fear is that a lot of these are new riders to and if this repeatedly happens they will find another hobby. MTB as a whole is desperate for organisers for events of all levels and there is plenty of support available to those who want to put their hand in the air.
On the other hand there is plenty of love for marathon style events, the full distance event at the Vittoria Marathon on 11th July is very nearly sold out.
Returning to the original question, I guess it's how you define grassroots. For me, it's racing that's open to pretty much anyone with a capable bike, that's not too expensive, where they'll come away having enjoyed themselves and want to return.
Can I ask which event and would you share any experiences of how you did it etc for others who might be thinking of giving it a try for next year? Finding a venue must be the hardest bit? I can’t think of anywhere big enough and privately owned near me
I run the Scottish XC series. More than happy to share experiences and details of what's involved. If you want more info, just PM me.
The headline items:
- Your team. There's a lot to do. Some of it is great fun but some of it is stressful. You might love riding with your mates but how would it be when you have to make urgent demands of each other with no time to spare?
- Date. Identifying a date where you're not clashing with anything that'll deprive a chunk of your audience. There's always something else on somewhere and it's important to stay friends with other organisers! You also need to consider your team, no point trying to run an event when someone's on holiday or has other life stuff on.
- Venue. Different landowners have different conditions for you to satisfy and different ideas about what's OK and what isn't. Different venues have different infrastructure and limitations. No point planning an race on the most amazing trails if nobody can park anywhere near it. A venue that's equally loved by riders and organisers is rare!
- Cost projection. Can you afford to lose money? If you aren't careful, there's a good chance you will.
- Appeal. It might be great in your head, but would enough paying punters agree with your vision to make it viable? Different people often want very different things from an event, can you give everyone enough of what they want?
- Volunteers. Grassroots racing happens because volunteers make it happen. You need to be able to count on people willingly giving up their time to do so. Even a couple of people pulling out the day before can make your race unworkable, you really do count on these guys. It's a very good way to identify the absolute superstars in your life. Building and maintaining a volunteer base is probably the hardest part TBH.
- Your life. Can you fit the work in around the rest of your life? Nobody is making their living from organising grassroots XC racing!
You'll notice I haven't mentioned the course - most people start organising races thinking about that first and foremost. That's the dessert of race organisation, you have to eat all your vegetables first. See above!
see that BC have recently put out a .pdf where they are indicating they want to get behind enduance mtb more, but it seemed largely like window dressing to me.
Got a link? I’d be interested to read it.
3 marathons on the UK mainland this year - all races & not MTB sportives a la CRC series:
Yorkshire Marathon (June)
Vittoria Marathon (July)
Deadwater 100 (August)
(My plan for next year is to do all 3 of these as my own little race series).
Not forgetting that events Big Dog & Torq in your sleep aren’t on this year. Appears to me that endurance MTB looks in pretty good health.
You’ll notice I haven’t mentioned the course – most people start organising races thinking about that first and foremost. That’s the dessert of race organisation, you have to eat all your vegetables first. See above!
And book the toilets
And book the toilets
All those vegetables do put a lot of fibre in your diet, it's true.
Anyone in Newcastle?
Off this evening for some digging and pruning to get this ready.
