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Years ago I used to compete in NEMBA, NAMBS (?), Diamondback Sportage series, boltby bash etc.
Does this sort of xc racing still exist?
Southern XC series is very much it. As is Gorrick
Thetford Winter Series?
Mud, sweat and gears or travers mtb series
FNSS?
I have done a few Midlands XC events, but not seen any announcements for this year
Crank It might start again, also was it Midweek Madness doing one Lee Quarry last or this week?
Covid isnt it.
FNSS is still hoping to put on a few events. Others have held off, as there is no point organising something that is going to be cancelled tomorrow.
I'm in a similar situation with a kayak trip I've got planned. 40-50 taking part, but, we havent had the go ahead from CART, so I cant open entries, and it'll probably be cancelled now, as it was due to be on 11th July, probably a little too near to get the numbers required.
Beastway in London is running the whole series currently in London, Round 6 (I think) next Wednesday.
Nowhere near any of those. Is it Covid, or is it the shift towards enduro or marathon type events?
I asked this somewhere else and the feeling was it’s a bit of Covid and a bit of a move away from as much xc. Weird really as you’d think the average getting into mtb rider could manage an xc course but might struggle with enduro or marathon?
Is getting venues the issue? There never seem to be any in the Sheffield/ high peak area which must be lack of venues?
I've done a couple of southern cc events this year, really well run, fun courses and massive fields. A lot of people come a long way which I guess makes sense if other areas lack races.
Not much I the Midlands but appears to be a Covid/volunteer issue from what I've heard.
Some clubmates were somewhere in Yorkshire yesterday for an event
Grassroots XC is very much dependent on finding a venue, someone/ a team of organisers daft enough to run it, resolving lots of logistical issues, keeping you nerve when most decide to enter on the day, sponsors etc, and the ability to get at least 10 people to commit to marshalling ahead of the race, timing system that works,
Can't see why they aren't running in every area........
Weird really as you’d think the average getting into mtb rider could manage an xc course but might struggle with enduro or marathon?
The benefit of enduro and marathon is they have something in them for those at the bottom. There’s a pride in just finishing the thing.
I probably won’t be entering an XC race anytime soon, I need to lose ten kilos and train myself to ride at threshold for an hour and a half.
Why don't we have very simple XC races, where you just do one big lap and the first to cross the line wins. No marshals, no timing, no forms, no numbers, no bogs, no faffing about. Bit like a mates race.
Just tape out a course that covers a good mix of ground / woods / climbs / descents etc. Start in a big group and off you go. Take a fiver in cash to enter, limit it to what you think the course can take. Its mountain biking, it should not need to be complicated, we are not roadies who need the right length socks FFS 🙂
Anyone serious can see their actual times / positions via Strava.
I did quite a few XC races in the late 80's / early 90's that were this simple.
Scottish Cross Country Series and Gorrickswere where instated out, both still going strong, at least before covid they were.
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Trimix, are you a fellrunner? Sounds exactly like almost hill race ever, but with a bike
You can do all that @trimix up to the bit where you charge a fiver. You're talking about a middle ground between a mates race and a race that doesn't really exist any more. As soon as you charge an entry fee it puts you in a different space.
also was it Midweek Madness doing one Lee Quarry last or this week?
Aye and one last month in Southern Manchester on pretty much the only sunny evening. Everyone seemed to be having a grand time
“ Why don’t we have very simple XC races, where you just do one big lap and the first to cross the line wins.”
If you own a large bit of suitable land and can deal with the insurance etc then that would be easy. If not, then it’s not that simple!
Might work in Scotland trimix but you aren't legally supposed to race on bridleways. And locals might notice your taped out 20 plus mile course 🙂
Saying that, the exact same thing worked splendidly for SSUK in Kentmere. Unfortunately it is very reliant on everyone not being a dick. It won't be long before an "organiser" gets held responsible for an accident without full permission and safety cover etc.
Shit loads down south, naff all in the Norf, give or take a few mid-week races.
The benefit of enduro and marathon is they have something in them for those at the bottom. There’s a pride in just finishing the thing.
I know what you mean, but I get more satisfaction and reward from thrashing myself for an hour or two in a local XC race than I do from wobbling my way to a lower-mid-pack result in an enduro race.
Hoping grassroots XC will see a lift from the combined effect of masses of newcomers to MTB at the same time as World Cup XC is the coolest it's been for decades.
Why don’t we have very simple XC races, where you just do one big lap and the first to cross the line wins. No marshals, no timing, no forms, no numbers, no bogs, no faffing about. Bit like a mates race.
Just tape out a course that covers a good mix of ground / woods / climbs / descents etc. Start in a big group and off you go. Take a fiver in cash to enter, limit it to what you think the course can take. Its mountain biking, it should not need to be complicated, we are not roadies who need the right length socks FFS
Why don't you organise one? If the model works others can/ will copy it.
I know Mr Gorrick and that's literally all he does. Absolutely raking it in.
Err, except not.
Huge effort involved with sorting landowner access, particularly MOD/DIO down in the Gorrick area. Insurances, support for medical care, now CV restrictions as well....... as well as just organising the event itself. It takes a huge amount of work by him and his team to run the events they do (hat tipped)
It's easy to say a mates race and everyone knows what they're doing but say someone got hurt, and couldn't work (self employed) and then claimed on their incapacity insurance. They may well have signed a disclaimer (but- would you bother with those, it's only a mates' race after all) but there could still be liability even then, sufficient that their insurers would start to pursue to mitigate their loss. And a whole can of worms opens......
I do wonder at times what concerns Strava have / had in that model. 'I got injured because I was trying to set a KoM on Strava and hit a tree, now I can't work for 6 months.....' - do Strava have any responsibility?
I do wonder at times what concerns Strava have / had in that model. ‘I got injured because I was trying to set a KoM on Strava and hit a tree, now I can’t work for 6 months…..’ – do Strava have any responsibility?
Recollect they were sued in the early days when an intrepid KOM hunter crashed and died - his family brought the suit in the US. Got dismissed.
It's the same situation here in Germany. Most of the XC race series died a few years ago. A lot of the marathon events are going the same way. But if you go over the border to Poland or the Czech Republic their races have massive attendance.
I'd say it does - I organised an event yesterday!
First one since March last year. Turnout was lower than we might have expected, but we weren't really sure what to expect. Fast people and youths (teenage and upwards) turned up in numbers, as you would probably expect.
Rather than normal XCO, we went for self-selecting ability based races on a shorter than normal course for about 45 mins per race, trying to keep the emphasis on fun and getting back into it, with manual scoring rather than electronic so we could keep the entry fee down. Everyone seemed to have a good time.
Why don’t we have very simple XC races, where you just do one big lap and the first to cross the line wins. No marshals, no timing, no forms, no numbers, no bogs, no faffing about. Bit like a mates race.
Insurance. The event organiser is responsible for anything that might happen. I'm not prepared to risk losing my house to provide someone with a bike race. Insurers insist on certain things being in place before they will provide cover. Those things take a lot of organisation and some of them are expensive.
Are there any mountain bike marathons? I did the yorkshire one yesterday and remembered how much I like them. A quick look suggests any events are down south. Not great for me as I'm in Newcastle.
I guess it's down to what people want. I feel there has been a resurgence in people riding XC mtb and the latest crop of big talent doing the XCO and the quality of the circuits will help.
Might take a while for it to filter down. It took a couple of years for CX to boom.
Organising is hard though. Poor support from the national body. Lots of effort and risk placed on volunteers. Unless you can guarantee a good turnout why bother? 500 riders in Yorkshire so obviously a market if done well.
My team is trying to put on three mid week events in Newcastle. We have a friendly venue but it will still be a lot of work. Likely to be a hard CX course done on mtbs though rather than a proper mtb race. Limited by location.
Why don’t we have very simple XC races, where you just do one big lap and the first to cross the line wins. No marshals, no timing, no forms, no numbers, no bogs, no faffing about. Bit like a mates race.
Just tape out a course that covers a good mix of ground / woods / climbs / descents etc. Start in a big group and off you go. Take a fiver in cash to enter, limit it to what you think the course can take. Its mountain biking, it should not need to be complicated, we are not roadies who need the right length socks FFS
Is it that simple? Me, Big_n_daft and the rest of the HTN & Brownbacks must have been doing it all wrong back in the day I guess.
Enjoyed it at the time but am in no mood to put myself through it again thankyouverymuch.
Why don’t we have very simple XC races, where you just do one big lap and the first to cross the line wins. No marshals, no timing, no forms, no numbers, no bogs, no faffing about. Bit like a mates race.
No insurance, no first aid, no emergency contact details, no access permissions? Anything else it doesn't need?
It’s so sad that a bunch of consenting adults can’t just go and have fun in the woods without worrying about insurance and liability.
It would be exactly the same risks as every uninsured group ride we all do week in, week out.
We’re allowed to have sex without insurance, and that comes with all kinds of risks.
Crazy, crazy world.
Anyway, that’s why grass roots racing has died.
It’s so sad that a bunch of consenting adults can’t just go and have fun in the woods without worrying about insurance and liability.
They can. Just don't advertise it and take payment, cos then it's an official race and needs all the crap. Nothing to stop you ragging around the place with your mates is there?
Races are a different context because the activity and hence the course has been provided for you by an organisation, therefore it's responsible for what happens. It's not without merit though. When you pay to enter an organised event you might not be familiar with the course or terrain, and you have to put your trust in the organiser that it's safe and there aren't any children or cows on the course or blind gap jumps etc. If there were you'd expect to have some sort of recourse, as would the owners of the cow or the child that you maim.
These restrictions weren't just made up to piss us off - they came about for reasons. I'm not saying they are perfect rules, but there's a reason we have the setup we do.
Anyway, that’s why grass roots racing has died.
I don't think so - it's because alternative events were conceived which ended up more fun and having more appeal. XC racing is hard work and can be quite dull, it only appeals to a particular sub-section of MTBers.
It’s so sad that a bunch of consenting adults can’t just go and have fun in the woods without worrying about insurance and liability.
It would be exactly the same risks as every uninsured group ride we all do week in, week out.
.
Go on, organise one, nobody is stopping you
Anyway, that’s why grass roots racing has died.
No it's struggling because (nearly) everyone wants someone else to organise it, be the change you want to see and organise one or twenty five
It’s so sad that a bunch of consenting adults can’t just go and have fun in the woods without worrying about insurance and liability.
It's all good fun until something goes wrong. If a rider gets hurt then it is bad, if someone out for a stroll with their dog gets hurt then you are in the shit. The rules are to protect the organiser as much as the rider, the walker or their dog.
HTN had to have a couple of million quids worth of liability insurance for such an eventuality. And if an insurance company are going to provide that they will want some assurance that the organiser knows what they are doing and has systems in place. Closures, course marking, first aid, marshals and all the rest of it.
There's a difference between messing about in the woods and staging a race.
SXC race yesterday at Cathkin Braes. £15 an entry all levels. Six separate races to cater for all levels.
If I'd seen the event a day or two earlier I could have entered and trust me any race I'm allowed to enter is pretty "grassroots"
It’s all good fun until something goes wrong. If a rider gets hurt then it is bad, if someone out for a stroll with their dog gets hurt then you are in the shit. The rules are to protect the organiser as much as the rider, the walker or their dog.
Yes, very true, but that's not my objection.
The risks are the same, race or no race, so it's not very logical for liability to change.
And adults should be able to say "I accept full responsibility for whatever happens to me" without it being undermined. Disclaimers should mean something.
We don't sue the forestry every time we break a bone, do we? (I'd be rich)
organise your own race then
Bit of a flawed argument as there's little chance of riding in your own race...
Bit of a flawed argument as there’s little chance of riding in your own race…
Not really, I'm pretty sure the organiser of the NWCCA series of CX races at Broughton Hall over the last few months put in a pretty strong appearance in his cat. This is the attitude problem, too many want to take part and not give anything back, we're thankful that there are some regualr volunteers out there who are willing to give up their time to organise races and events throughout the year,
Sometimes we're dumbfounded when numbers are low in comparison to some of the enduro or marathon events, yet people complain about events not being available, yet we've got a reasonable calendar this year including a 2 day National Champs at www.BMBO.org.uk. Is it because people have to read a map and think a bit?
Is it because people have to read a map and think a bit?
I thought it was more of a Marin riders group therapy........... 😉
Funny. there's a parallel discussion on the King Alfred's Way fb page about admin deleting posts from people attempting to ride it in one go.
Obviously everyone attempting will have an idea about the time they might be able to do it if everything goes well, and 24hours is a nice target.
Apparently though, this is "riding against the clock" and that's racing, which is illegal on public rights of way, so must be discouraged. If not, ever increasing numbers of people riding round 220 miles in a one go will put the future of the collection of public rights of way at risk.
Apparently.
The risks are the same, race or no race, so it’s not very logical for liability to change.
except they aren't, people behave differently in races. The responsibilities for the space change and people rightly expect it to be safe and that there is provision for dealing with when it goes wrong. and toilets and results that are quick and accurate, and some food and a hot brew, and prizes, and a well marked course, and somewhere to park and.......
The first race I organised with a lot of help from volunteers off here saw 5 people visit A&E after treatment on site including a bike journalist on the warm up lap and the organiser of the NWCCA series mentioned above. All managed because we had thought it through and got the right people to support us there on the day
which is illegal on public rights of way, so must be discouraged
bridleways have a peculiarity that they can't be raced over at all, ever, unless it's Whinlatter and then they get a pass. I remember the organiser of the Commonwealth Games race having a very big rant about this once (not Whinlatter)
To be honest if I was the admin I'd be deleting the posts as the poster was stupid and should just go and quietly do his ride and not shout "STRAVA" at anyone in their way.
And adults should be able to say “I accept full responsibility for whatever happens to me” without it being undermined. Disclaimers should mean something.
What about the general public who aren't part of your race?
just go and quietly do his ride and not shout “STRAVA”
How about "I'm riding all day, so I'm keeping to Zone 2" ? Or is that still too loud?
How about “I’m riding all day, so I’m keeping to Zone 2” ? Or is that still too loud?
I think the laughing by any anyone you share that line with will be louder
The risks are the same, race or no race
Not really - firstly, as above, everyone's pinning it in races, and they are not expecting riders coming the other way or dog walkers etc. Secondly, the organiser has provided the course. When someone provides something on a commercial basis then they have a responsibility in law to ensure it's fit for purpose. If you build your own bike and it breaks, you're on your own. But if a manufacturer builds one and it breaks, it's their fault.
Same for a race. You provide it, you're responsible. It's a good principle generally. In the UK (not sure if this is the case everywhere) we have reasonableness tests which can invalidate things you've signed up for, which protect us. If you entered an XC race with a 100 mile course and it said 'you agree not to sue anyone if you crash' in the T&Cs you'd sign up, and you wouldn't pre-ride it cos it'd take too long. But then if the route went 50 miles into the wilderness and took you over a huge gap jump, the unreasonableness of this would probably override the T&Cs you signed up for (IANAL though).
This protects us from vague wording and technicalities that us as un-trained legal people may not spot even if we scrutinised the T&Cs, and it also acknowledges the fact that no-one reads them all anyway cos it's just too onerous.
There’s normally the Scott series but that’s not on this year or last. I feel marathons have stopped due to Covid and land owners not being compliant this year.
Can I ask which event and would you share any experiences of how you did it etc for others who might be thinking of giving it a try for next year? Finding a venue must be the hardest bit? I can’t think of anywhere big enough and privately owned near me
I get what is said about disclaimers, but as in the example I gave it's not necessarily down to the individual to give that away. An insurer may require you to try to mitigate losses, and put you in a position where you can't say you take full responsibility AND still expect insurers to pay.
And a disclaimer doesn't absolve the provider from all responsibility, there is still a duty of care and even if ultimately in the right could cause a lot of hassle in defending a claim.
Can I ask which event and would you share any experiences of how you did it etc for others who might be thinking of giving it a try for next year? Finding a venue must be the hardest bit? I can’t think of anywhere big enough and privately owned near me
Where is near you? You'd be surprised where events have been held, lot's of less well known bit's of private land have been used before now, Bowland Wild Boar Park was used for a Midweek Madness a couple of years ago and Waddow Hall Girl Guide Centre is hosting in a few weeks too. Courses don't always have to be restricted to existing tracks, this was pretty evident at this years Monstercross at Catton Hall Park, if it was dry it would have been great on an XC bike!
If I could post it, I have a great gif saying "Before you complain, have you volunteered?"
Our club organise CX races, TTs and hill climbs. I marshall to help out when I can, but the effort required to organise them is huge. One of our committee is an events organiser in their day job and has experience and access to kit but it's still a massive undertaking.
There's something about XC that seems to make it struggle. CX seems to flourish and do fine, but tweak the bike and course a little and it falls away.
And those questioning why insurance is needed should open their eyes and look around them. It's not just the competitors who might get involved. There's other people on the planet.
Bit of a flawed argument as there’s little chance of riding in your own race…
Mario Roma both organised and competed in the 24hr World Championship last time it was held (2019)
If he can do that...
The risks are the same, race or no race, so it’s not very logical for liability to change.
Ever raced? I had a stupid crash at SSUK 2019 which has left a scar on my arm. I just came over the top of the course, seeing red and trying not to vomit my lungs up let my front wheel drop off thr side of the slab of rock that made up the trail and impaled my elbow on a branch. Wasnt the end of the world and still carried on and finished but it could easily have gone worse if the tree hadn't caught me (it could also have got infected etc).
And that's just SSUK, it's very much a "mates" race. People still see red and do stupid stuff to make up one mid pack place.
And adults should be able to say “I accept full responsibility for whatever happens to me” without it being undermined. Disclaimers should mean something.
The problem is we sign those T&Cs without considering how they apply.
Got a mortgage? Credit Card? PPI? Home insurance? Health insurance?
We don’t sue the forestry every time we break a bone, do we? (I’d be rich)
Then if you crash, and don't work, and default on it, then the PPI company will sue the FC for it if they can see that the trail was deficient in some way.
If you crash, break your bike and claim for it on your insurance.......
If you crash, break yourself then likewise the health insurance does the same.......
Doesn't matter if you signed a disclaimer, those other contracts you're already in will still apply.
People still see red and do stupid stuff to make up one mid pack place.
Of course, this is the entire point. Otherwise, why enter a race at all? May as well just go for a ride.
Perhaps we make the problem worse by having insurance. If there is insurance you will claim, if there is not, you accept the risks you have taken.
For example: when following your mate on a bike ride and he takes you over a gap that you break your back on, you dont sue him. But you would attempt to sue an event organiser in the same situation.
Can we not organise a race where we explicitly do not accept any risks ?
For example: when following your mate on a bike ride and he takes you over a gap that you break your back on, you dont sue him. But you would attempt to sue an event organiser in the same situation.
Can we not organise a race where we explicitly do not accept any risks ?
That's the problem. It's not always gping to be the individual doing the suing, it might even be your employer trying to recover the sick pay that sues whoever built the gap jump.
And while you can sign a disclaimer, the 3rd party probably has better lawyers.
For example: when following your mate on a bike ride and he takes you over a gap that you break your back on, you dont sue him. But you would attempt to sue an event organiser in the same situation.
The relationship between you and your mate is different to that between you and a race organiser.
and would you share any experiences of how you did it etc for others who might be thinking of giving it a try for next year? Finding a venue must be the hardest bit? I can’t think of anywhere big enough and privately owned near me
You need to think about what you want to do before you ask, you also need to think about how you are doing it, is it all volunteers including you or do you plan to get some return, raising money for charity or planning to give it all away as prizes? It sets a context for the discussions with land owners. Local Authorities can be supportive others such as Woodland Trust are very unlikely to help
You will need lots of help, don't try and do it solo, you need a group with contacts and skills you don't have. BC will help if you choose to go that route, there are other ways of doing it
Almost any organiser will give advice just ask
Perhaps we make the problem worse by having insurance. If there is insurance you will claim, if there is not, you accept the risks you have taken.
For example: when following your mate on a bike ride and he takes you over a gap that you break your back on, you dont sue him. But you would attempt to sue an event organiser in the same situation.
Can we not organise a race where we explicitly do not accept any risks ?
We don't live in utopia so no we can't
Insurance also covers the unforeseen and provides a way of mitigating the impact of the unforeseen. If a third party is hit by a participant off the course who pays for the consequences and keeps roof over that families head?
Even if all the entrants are on board, it is still almost impossible to remove the third party element. I'm marshaling at Lee Quarry in 2 days. Public land. There is a bridleway through it, plus footpaths. Plus the complete spectrum of random people from dogwalkers to illegal MX riders.
I walked the Waddow corse with the organiser a few weeks ago. Totally private venue, but there is still a public footpath through the middle of site.
There are public footpaths and bridleways in our local woods, but now there are loads and loads of homemade MTB trails. These trails are now pretty well defined, which means they are attracting walkers. So even if you made your race course and added marshals at every point where a PROW crossed the course you'd still miss loads of walkers.
Imagine racing cars on public roads. It'd be an absolute nightmare from every angle. Bikes are less dangerous but can still be dangerous. Races need to be properly organised, I think.
We can crash into horses outside of races, and we can hurt ourselves walking down the street. Without insurance. I’m not convinced racing increases the risks.
I know the world is the way it is, but that’s no reason not to think it doesn’t need to be that way.
Those race organisers who get to ride their own race are very lucky. The organisers I’ve known have been way too stressed and busy. But I still don’t rate the “put on your own race then” argument. It’s not that simple.
I almost organised an xc event but it was too much effort and expense for the likely numbers.
Those race organisers who get to ride their own race are very lucky. The organisers I’ve known have been way too stressed and busy. But I still don’t rate the “put on your own race then” argument. It’s not that simple.
I almost organised an xc event but it was too much effort and expense for the likely numbers
A good summary of why there is a shortage of XC events.....
I’m not convinced racing increases the risks.
If you ride the same speed in races as out of races then you're either a hooligan or a really rubbish racer. What would be the point of entering a race if you were going to do that?
But again - the context is completely different. In one, you're doing something organised by yourself, the other you're doing something organised FOR you by someone else. The liability is different. The race organisers are liable in part for the things that the entrants do. And this is not at all unreasonable.
You can't say 'hey, everyone, come to the woods on Sunday morning and hoon around as fast as you can with loads of other people' then if a rider or bystander gets hurt say 'oh well, that's nothing to do with me'. That's ridiculous. It IS something to do with you because it was your idea.
Imagine racing cars on public roads. It’d be an absolute nightmare from every angle.
One observation is that all the posters that say insurance etc isn't necessary put together have organised exactly zero races for public entry.....
Just saying
Back to the original question, it seems very geographically variable. In the south-east, things like Gorrick are great, but its an area of high population density so even if only a fraction of riders want to race, that's still a lot. In Wales, numbers are pretty thin and its typically only the faster guys that race. Even before covid I was starting to question why I was travelling 2hrs to race against half a dozen others that I wouldn't see after the second lap. I guess with the amount of good natural riding, the idea of going racing to ride a good venue is less of a pull too.
I see that BC have recently put out a .pdf where they are indicating they want to get behind enduance mtb more, but it seemed largely like window dressing to me.
Hopefully the pidcock factor will boost cx and xc - is he going to be fit for the olympics?
Even before covid I was starting to question why I was travelling 2hrs to race against half a dozen others that I wouldn’t see after the second lap.
The whole age related classes that XC MTB dropped into is essentially bollox. It's designed to keep the regulars happy racing the same people they have for the last 10-20 years.
BC and MTB is mainly window dressing, none of the key staff are mtbers first, the model they operate on needs clubs and MTB riders don't in the main join clubs
Hopefully the pidcock factor will boost cx and xc – is he going to be fit for the olympics?
Does the UK have a place for XC?
One observation is that all the posters that say insurance etc isn’t necessary put together have organised exactly zero races for public entry…..
Nobody has said that though.
Perfect world. Private woodland. Own risk. Would be nice. Is all.
I’m far more of a risk chasing KOMs.
Cars racing on public roads? Er, amateur road rallying. No closures. Assume nobody else could possibly be on the road at night.
Molgrips. We’re talking xc, not enduro. Even if you do descend faster that doesn’t necessarily increase the risk. I rarely crash when racing because I’m concentrating. Public are less likely to stray onto a track with people coming down it, or tape along it, and marshals on it. Etc etc.
But the thread has strayed. I thought we were talking about grassroots xc, not just any xc. Grass roots for me would be marking out a course and getting 30 locals along one summer evening in a wood where there are no other users.
But the thread has strayed. I thought we were talking about grassroots xc, not just any xc. Grass roots for me would be marking out a course and getting 30 locals along one summer evening in a wood where there are no other users.
Just to develop this idea,
How do people enter? On the day, in advance, both?
Any categories? Any prizes?
How hard is your course? Gnarcore scale 1 to 10, and XC jeyboy climbing 1 to 10?
what is your first aid provision?
Are you bothering with marshals?
How are you tracking who is in the lead and the subsequent places? If it's electronic what is your backup system?
Which insurer are you using?
What happens when the weather is crap?
If you can answer them then congratulations you are a significant way to organising your first race, I look forward to reading all about it
Nobody is questioning the amount of work involved in organising a proper race.
Molgrips. We’re talking xc, not enduro.
I pin everything when racing, including flat singletrack and descents. Otherwise what's the point?
Grass roots for me would be marking out a course and getting 30 locals along one summer evening in a wood where there are no other users.
And we're explaining why it can't work well and it doesn't happen. If you race your own mates then that's somewhat different but still irresponsible and quite dangerous.
Cyclocross is more like what you are asking for, but the courses are usually rubbish and there's a reason for it - they have to use the edges of a park or school field or something because they need the private land and to have low risks.
People don't add bureaucracy and red tape for the fun of it. Bike racing started off the way you describe, and then it evolved into what we have today, for reasons. There are ways round it - like having an established regular venue with an established course and owned by a continuous business which I think is what happened at the ones in East London? If we had the numbers this would be a good model. It's a sporting venue like the velodrome or swimming pool etc.
Enclosed boundaries with no public rights of way are how CX can do it, but finding that big enough for XC is a tall order. The first Twentyfour12 was like that, but the course was very compact and a bit rubbish. It only stayed there for 1 year.
The smaller HTNs had a 3 mile lap with many rights of way across it. Closure notices (paid for) had to be placed at all intersection a week in advance, and on the day they had to be taped and marshalled. Before the start of the race you still got the odd arsehole who's god given right was to wander down that particular path, but once there were 200 bikes out it became obvious.
But the thread has strayed. I thought we were talking about grassroots xc, not just any xc. Grass roots for me would be marking out a course and getting 30 locals along one summer evening in a wood where there are no other users.
I did this sort of grassiest of grassroots racing a long time back, when I was working in the US - it was fantastic. Could maybe work nowadays but really depends on your locale and riding scene.
One obvious reason the one I did worked was the location - actually in city parkland but some sketchy woods that saw few recreational walkers.
The other big reason it worked was the involvement of all the local racers - I think it must have had a lot of history behind it. Maybe it had grown as part of the XC glory days in the 90s, don't really know, but you'd get proper strong riders coming out to race round a course marked out with sticks and stones, with no timing and just a rough idea of who finished 1-2-3.
Does feel to me like the time has past for that sort of XC thing now, tbh - sport is just in a different place, more fragmented. OTOH XC racing is hard AF, it's not something you can really do on a casual basis, so doing something low key like this might capture people's imagination.
As said above - just takes one self-serving dickhead and it's over.
XC is still happening and has really healthy attendance but the issue is that there just aren't enough organisers. I'm one of the organisers at the SouthernXC and on Sunday ran our 5th XC race of this year and it was the first that hadn't sold out (TBH that was because of a number of understandable reasons, most of which were our fault), the combined number of riders who we sadly had to turn away across the first 4 races was in excess of 600 and my fear is that a lot of these are new riders to and if this repeatedly happens they will find another hobby. MTB as a whole is desperate for organisers for events of all levels and there is plenty of support available to those who want to put their hand in the air.
On the other hand there is plenty of love for marathon style events, the full distance event at the Vittoria Marathon on 11th July is very nearly sold out.
Returning to the original question, I guess it's how you define grassroots. For me, it's racing that's open to pretty much anyone with a capable bike, that's not too expensive, where they'll come away having enjoyed themselves and want to return.
Can I ask which event and would you share any experiences of how you did it etc for others who might be thinking of giving it a try for next year? Finding a venue must be the hardest bit? I can’t think of anywhere big enough and privately owned near me
I run the Scottish XC series. More than happy to share experiences and details of what's involved. If you want more info, just PM me.
The headline items:
- Your team. There's a lot to do. Some of it is great fun but some of it is stressful. You might love riding with your mates but how would it be when you have to make urgent demands of each other with no time to spare?
- Date. Identifying a date where you're not clashing with anything that'll deprive a chunk of your audience. There's always something else on somewhere and it's important to stay friends with other organisers! You also need to consider your team, no point trying to run an event when someone's on holiday or has other life stuff on.
- Venue. Different landowners have different conditions for you to satisfy and different ideas about what's OK and what isn't. Different venues have different infrastructure and limitations. No point planning an race on the most amazing trails if nobody can park anywhere near it. A venue that's equally loved by riders and organisers is rare!
- Cost projection. Can you afford to lose money? If you aren't careful, there's a good chance you will.
- Appeal. It might be great in your head, but would enough paying punters agree with your vision to make it viable? Different people often want very different things from an event, can you give everyone enough of what they want?
- Volunteers. Grassroots racing happens because volunteers make it happen. You need to be able to count on people willingly giving up their time to do so. Even a couple of people pulling out the day before can make your race unworkable, you really do count on these guys. It's a very good way to identify the absolute superstars in your life. Building and maintaining a volunteer base is probably the hardest part TBH.
- Your life. Can you fit the work in around the rest of your life? Nobody is making their living from organising grassroots XC racing!
You'll notice I haven't mentioned the course - most people start organising races thinking about that first and foremost. That's the dessert of race organisation, you have to eat all your vegetables first. See above!
see that BC have recently put out a .pdf where they are indicating they want to get behind enduance mtb more, but it seemed largely like window dressing to me.
Got a link? I’d be interested to read it.
3 marathons on the UK mainland this year - all races & not MTB sportives a la CRC series:
Yorkshire Marathon (June)
Vittoria Marathon (July)
Deadwater 100 (August)
(My plan for next year is to do all 3 of these as my own little race series).
Not forgetting that events Big Dog & Torq in your sleep aren’t on this year. Appears to me that endurance MTB looks in pretty good health.
You’ll notice I haven’t mentioned the course – most people start organising races thinking about that first and foremost. That’s the dessert of race organisation, you have to eat all your vegetables first. See above!
And book the toilets
And book the toilets
All those vegetables do put a lot of fibre in your diet, it's true.