[Closed] Do you believe in Gortex and it claims.......????

No, I use eVent instead.

Well its kind of the whole waterproof breathable thing in general....

Gortex is very waterproof but not as breathable as event, for fast sports like running or biking you must wear proper wicking fabrics below. My wife runs in her gortex jacket when it rains and although the inside of the jacket gets wet she herself is dry and I find the same with my Fusion gortex jacket. I dont think that there will ever be a totally waterproof jacket that breathes totally as well so there will always be comprimises. If you wear a good wicking fabric below the jacket then it removes the moisture from the skin and should stop the cold shivers when you stop riding. I also carry a dry base layer on big days out and it feels great when you are freezing at the top of the last climb and you slip the dry layer on.
Hope this helps.

Well, the way I see it is, waterproof is waterproof. A bin bag is waterproof. Breathable is what really matters to me, so I choose to use eVent as I have found it to be much more breathable than anything else.

Too bloody expensive anyway.

I did have some GoreTex walking shoes and the waterproofing lasted less than a year. My feet were always damn hot in them too. Got some eVent ones now and they are definitely cooler, time will tell if they last better.

Should try Paramo

The other thing to note is that Gortex has now lost the patent or the patent has now ran out so other companies can now make the fabric and improve on it, ie Endura, their new fabric is basically a copy of Gortex but its much more breathable, their new jackets look good.

a copy of Gortex but its much more breathable

Goretex for walking/work jackets where it's steady exertion in truly filthy weather.

eVent for biking where it's high exertion in slightly less disgusting conditions.

Does it work?

Have you ever tried wearing a pre gore-tex "dry" suit?

I've got a stupifyingly expensive musto sailing jacket, worth every penny of the £10 it cost in a charity shop. But compared to £100 sailing jackets I've had its the muts nuts, I've worn it with a base layer in weather down to -5 and upto 35, feels just the same inside. worst offender though is my race face atlas jacket, waterproof, and probably slightly breathable, but is very definately a case of boil in the bag!

IMO it works best in low intensity aplications where your not sweating buckets, so sailing kit, bivi bags, etc.

I've got a 10 year old Lowe Alpine 'ceramic' membrane breathable jacket. The 'breathable' membrane is barely in existence anymore, having flaked away into little pieces, yet the jacket is still waterproof and breathable.

The secret?

Finishing the jacket with a good waterproofing treatment. Rainwater beads on the surface of the nylon outer fabric, I remain dry - and body moisture permeates through the outer fabric quite happily.

It's more 'breathable' now than it ever was! 😀

Backhander, I spoke to the guy from Endura at the bike show in Earls court, he said the if you make the holes in the fabric bigger then it is less waterproof but more breathable and vice versa and Gore cant be that great as they sold us all up the river with their paclite fabric that was as breathable as a bin liner.

I've always considered that 'breathable' garments work best when the weather / atmosphere is dry therefore allowing the moisture wicked away from your body to dissipate. A waterproof and breathable garment worn in the wettest weather will always be compromised; it may not let the rain in but, equally, your sweat cannot escape into the atmosphere.

psling, exactly, kind of defeats the whole point give that thats when it will be worn

I went out on the STW southern ride to Swinley at the start of the month. It rained all moning. I was wearing Goretex paclite and lifa base layer on my upper body and Event waterproof trousers on my legs with no base layer. I was comfortable on my top half but by the end of the morning my legs were very sweaty. I have found that you certainly need a wicking layer next to a breathable fabric for maximum benefit.

Has anyone tried Ventile and can you still get clothing made of it?

I remember being issued the old "crisp packet" jacket and trous.
Every one on the ex with goretex was as comfy as could be expected, where as [b]all[/b] the blokes with the old kit were p1ss wrapped, shivering etc.
I for one will never moan about Gtex, Event or paclite.

I use a gore fusion jacket in winter and don't have an issue with breathability at all, it's also the most waterproof jacket I've ever used. But as above if you wear something daft like a cotton t-shirt under it then it's gonna get wet.

[i]their new fabric is basically a copy of Gortex but its much more breathable, their new jackets look good[/i]

Which endura jacket are you using glynP?

I think Gotre Tex's own description tells you it cant work,
It will let out vapour as the holes are small enough to allow this, but once your sweat has condensed to liquid its then water proof from the inside as they say water droplets are to big to pass through the membrane...

their paclite fabric that was as breathable as a bin liner

amen brother

Gore cant be that great as they sold us all up the river with their paclite fabric that was as breathable as a bin liner

I've always found Paclite to be by far the most breathable of the range, it's all the same membrane anyway, what differentiates them is the way the membrane is applied and how many layers there are

all these fabric require a large temp differential to work - often even if you are hot and sweaty and it is cold outside this is not enough..

http://www.psychovertical.com/?thetruthaboutbreathablewaterproofs

I think performance varies hugely.

My walking jacket (Sprayway Goretex) is rubbish. The waterproof finish lasts about 5 minutes, then the rain soaks in and the jacket can't breathe.

My contrast, my Gore paclite cycling jacket is great. It needs re-treating once every six months and that's it. It only gets sweaty when pedalling hard, but I doubt that any other jackets would cope with a sweaty MTBer labouring up a steep hill. But you do need to wear a wicking base layer underneath or it won't breathe at all.

I like the look of these Paramo jackets - any owners on here?

My Gore-Tex is fine. Can get a little warm but for me it's fine as I find I get too warm with more than just a short-sleeved jersey (unless it's actually raining), for the very little money paid for what I got I consider it a decent jacket. The only time I get wet is through my own sweat, it's near-enough-as-makes-no-difference 100% waterproof

(having said that it's army surplus, not sure if that makes any difference to composition or design)

...the only downside being it's DPM, which despite looking cool means I'm a little harder to find when things go wrong

backhander - You should have worn your Chinese fighting suit underneath it, you'd have been nice and toasty, well at least until that got wet too.

It is what it is, and it's important to remember that the other things you're wearing are just as important. So if you're wearing a cotton t-shirt under your £200 jacket you're effectively wasting your money. Personally I find eVent is better, but in general I avoid wearing waterproofs for as long as possible because they're just not breathable enough.

That doesn't make them useless, and they're still a lot better than they've ever been, but they're not miracle fabrics. You just need realistic expectations and a bit of common sense.

At the end of the OP's first link it says:
[i]No garment is breathable and waterproof [/i]
which isn't true. EVent steams and is waterproof so how is it not breathable? Of course breathable doesn't mean "breathes as if it wasn't there" but that's where the unrealistic expectations come in.

Lightweight GoreTex walking shoes have specific problems with the booty wearing and leaking. Once they leak, they get wet and stay wet. Leather or Leather+ gore is better in proper wet/rough situations.

I find packlite OK but still get wet if exerting hard in rain. Wicking layers underneath make a big difference to comfort. It's way better than a bin liner.

I've never had much luck with spray-on or wash-in coatings - they don't seem to stick, probably because of surface contamination.

Would like to try Event - next jacket will probably be Event.

I've found my Event jacket to be markedly more breathable that any previous waterproof I've owned.

For biking I rate Event above goretex - just seems to work better for me. That may or may not be because Event allows water through as a vapour but goretex needs it to condense back to a liquid to pass through the membrane.

goretex is never going to breathe enough to cope with the sweat / heat a rider can produce, i only use it if it's utterly pissing it down, any other time goretex seems totally pointless to me.

for all other occasions, windproofs with DWR coating or a thin pertex/pile based jacket work far better. i'd ratehr have a non-WP top that dries fast and breathes well.

Ha S&J, you've actually taken your chinese fighting suit into the field?
F*** THAT!

One interesting thing here, seems that all of us who have used eVent rate it more highly than other fabrics we've used. In the past I've tried various Gore formats, Lowe's Triple Point Ceramic etc and I would agree, eVent knocks them all in to a cocked hat.

Part of the problem here is ignorance. Was talking to the folks in my LBS and LOS (Outdoor!) at the weekend and they both said that people come in saying, "I need a Gore-tex" when what they mean is, "I need a breathable waterproof". Perception is a strong thing, and if more companies use eVent it can only help!

That said, I think I'm going to try one of hte new Endura ones as well. They look a very well thoguth out jacket, so worth trying the fabric out to see.

CFH, aye its like when ya need a new hoover you go and and come back with say a Dyson and say you have a new hoover.... 😕

Has anyone tried Ventile and can you still get clothing made of it?

Yes and yes. And no, you don't really want to use it as a biking waterproof.

Nagsnog, not yet, but nearly. There's a tipping point at which a term becomes generic such as is the case with hoover, sellotape and others. However, people will buy a "Dyson hoover" or some "3M sellotape"

The way that people buy waterproofs in the outdoor sector at the moment is to buy a gore-tex, as opposed to buying an eVent gore-tex.

Not sure that totally makes sense, but was what I was discussing with people in the trade at the weekend. makes enough sense for me, though!

Buffalo:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/

http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/Mail_Order_Buffalo_41.html

They make a load of outdoor clothes that are based on the idea that breathable waterproofs that still work when you are doing hard exercise don't exist. So instead, they make things that keep you warm when wet, breathe very well and dry very quickly. Designed to be worn without base layers or other layers and all that gubbins. People I know who have them (and use them for winter climbing etc) absolutely swear by them. They are kind of pricey, although not as pricey as the more expensive goretex and event jackets.

Joe

I like the look of these Paramo jackets - any owners on here?

Yes. And some Furtech stuff which is similar. It makes this whole breathability vs waterproofness argument irrelevant.

I did have some GoreTex walking shoes and the waterproofing lasted less than a year.

It's a membrane, it'll never lose it'w waterproofness. What likely happened was that parts of the shoe structure that permeate all the layers (stitching) lost their DWP (Durable Water Repellent) coating.

The other thing to note is that Gortex has now lost the patent or the patent has now ran out so other companies can now make the fabric and improve on it, ie Endura, their new fabric is basically a copy of Gortex but its much more breathable

Gore only patented the generalised technique for creating the *tex fabric. The actual manufacture process is a closely guarded secret.

schoeller eXtra dry anyone? (spelling?)

you get wet fairly easily, but you stay warm as it's windproof, and the second it stops raining you start to dry off. Brilliant.

The actual manufacturing process is a closely guarded secret, rubbish!

Anyway what are we all talking about, just looked at chain reaction and the new Campag waterproof is a whopping £439 so it MUST be waterproof and MUST be breathable if not how do they justify the cost.

Event is more breathable as the holes are larger but also means that its not as waterproof although I,ve never really noticed this. I have a gore fusion and an Endura event, the event is more breathable and the gore better suited to really awfull cold and wet days both are brilliant!
Having said all this I only wear them when I have to

joemarshall, i agree 100%, buffalo's rule, even if they can look a bit geeky. i won't go into the mountains without my buffalo belay jacket, i love it. the Montane pertex/pile range looks great too, same idea. Montane are working on some bike-orientated stuff with one of our team riders who's got aims in snow racing, looking forward to seeing if they go ahead with it.

Buffalo stuff is cool but not so much use for those summer showers!

It's all relative, my Altura Attack jacket (which is React Extreme I think) is completely waterproof, and moderately breathable. Better than a more traditional waterproof in both directions. But, still not perfect.

Breathable waterproofs can be tested as to how much liquid they can transpire out in a given period. None I have ever seen come anywhere near transpiring the amount of sweat I produce on a half decent climb. So the answer is , yes they are breathable but no, not breathable enough.
I think the key is as people have said getting wicking undergarments.
I notice if the weather isn't too cold but I am wearing Goretex cos it's raining my arms get really wet from the inside of the jacket but it doesn't seem as bad if I have long sleeves.

[i]Buffalo[/i]

One layer kind of commits you to the conditions you expect, I'd rather layer and be able to cope with warmer or coller temperatures.

Layers and windstopper, save the goretex for when it's chucking it down.

Well, as someone who owns clothing in: Paramo, GoreTex Paclite, GoreTex Pro Shell XCR , North Face Hydrolite, Patagonia H2NO (x2), eVent, Endura's own fabric (x2 types), Palms fabric (x2 types)...and previously owned Helly Tech, Lowe Alpine TriplePoint, various Goretex; plus have a staff encased in as much shiny breathable kit as you can imagine, I guess I could have a good viewpoint...

Overall, breathability has to be put in context - some is very breathable in dry conditions, but struggles in wet conditions(!), some stuff lasts 5 minutes (eVent and Paclite), some stuff works n works n works (Patagonia H2NO, Lowe Alpines (superb) TriplePoint Ceramic) but at a marginally lower rate than others.

Me, breathability is nice, but waterproofness and longevity come first.

The Paramo stuff is good, very good, warm, soft n cozy. Perfect for long cold days on the hill. Less enamoured about how regularly I have to wash in TechWash to keep it beading up/not wet out (like fortnightly at the moment), or how long it takes to dry when it does get wet. PLus they are cut like a sack of spuds. Too hot on some days as well.

Longest lasting/most waterproof was/is my Patagonia Jackets and Trousers, the Lowe Alpine Triple point and the (Pataginia) GoreTex Pro shell XCR and trousers.

Worst stuff was an old Helly Tech jacket or (gasp) my first trousers in Sympatex....and my eVent jacket.

Rumor in the outdoor world is that many of the fabrics are designed with a 'life' and will delaminate after 3 years typical use (average 90 or so days use). So 4 months for me....

*edit* - cut is far more important that breathability IMHO, as is ability to vent easily.

I've got a Lowe triple point and its going down the charity shop. Tears way too easily, had to get it patched twice and lets rain in like seive despite being treated twice as per manufacturers spec. Its back to the Barbour Bushman, heavy duty waxed cotton with a lining for surveys now, heavy but warm and very dry inside. Will probably see me out.

Canondale carbon jacket with wicking layer underneath works a treat on the bike.

Buffalo jacket [pertex with pile lining] was good out on the hill but a bit fragile and didn't really keep water out just kept me warm.

Just paid £30 for an RN issue breathable jacket, have to see how that performs

Can't comment on Event but the gore-tex stuff I have has worked really well.

I don't wear my hard shell for biking, generally merino baselayers and a windproof shell work better for me, no problem being wet if you're warm, with an extra layer I can put over the top if I stop for any length of time.

There are times when something properly waterproof is great though, weather like this

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I was dry, my camera which was kept in the coat pocket was dry, and rain that heavy keeps you cool enough that breathability isn't a concern - can't ask for any more from a 5 year old jacket that's never been re-treated

My 5 year old walking boots have also got a goretex membrane, still totally waterproof even though the rand is coming apart and one of the soles is delaminating.

As another saddo with way to many jackets I find all of the waterproofs just get me as wet as wearing a windproof. I had Goretex but couldnt stand that cold wet innner feeling if wearing a short sleeve baselayer-oh and they boil me in a bag.
Switched to eVent better than goretex as the sweat passes through as a vapour but still boil in the bag.
Buffalo Special Six-way to warm for anything above -5C when exercising hard but I have two of them for all other times during winter one for work one for dog walking when no one else ventures out.
Rab Generator Smock-my favourite all conditions winter riding jacket with a merino baselayer lovely and warm even when fully wetted out in sub zero and beyond.
For all other times on bike I wear Montane Velo windshirt.
As for walking/work I have a selection of Paramo jackets-they are very good, easy to look after and there is no panic if you snag them or rip them, just stitch it up reproof and way you go. they are however up to the advent of the Quito jacket too warm for high intensity riding. The newer thinner fabric design should mean that they are more suitable to those higher energy activities.
As for Ventile fabrics that someone mentioned earlier you can still buy it on the roll or as complete garments but they are VERY expensive and take forever to dry and can be very cold when wetted out if you have insufficient layesr beneath.

The Goretex PTFE membrane used to be far more consistent in pore size than the competitors (when looked at under an electron microscope). It's this consistency & ability to control the different membranes pore size well that makes the Goretex process 'better' and that's why it's closely guarded. How much difference this makes to the ability of Goretex to breathe better than competitors I'm not sure (it's probably more use in other applications such as filters etc.).

The main reason you shouldn't buy Goretex is the method they use to price the stuff......it's based on the maximum they think us mugs will be prepared to pay, not on any actual value or cost of manufacture. Hence you're probably paying £100+ more than you should be for a jacket just because of the brand name.

To my mind, the fit & finish of the jacket has more bearing on whether it'll work properly for it's use & be comfortable when you're working hard.

what gets me is than manufactures live in a fantasy world, my Gill Speed Pro was replacement for a model of the same material (eVent) but it had pit zips, excellent idea, so what did they do... phase them out on the Speed Pro [i]because the materials breathability meant they were not required[/i].
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[b]Muppets![/b]

Hence you're probably paying £100+ more than you should be for a jacket just because of the brand name.

My Mountain Hardware Goretex XCR jacket cost 100 quid, are you saying I should be given a jacket free? 🙂

I bought an Altura Nightvision jacket last year which I used for commuting and the odd wet ride - this was pure Boil-In-the-Bag despite the pit-zips and vent pockets. I soon got wet inside but it was comortable for up to an hour of moderate effort, anything over that time or hard effort and the water would be running down the inside.

I pushed the boat out and bought a Gore Fusion which is a very different beastie - yes it gets a little clammy inside but nowhere near that of the Altura.

I matched this with some Endura Event breeks for a 3hour ride in the pissing rain two weeks ago (rain which saw the two rivers in the town where I live burst their banks, flood the town and put us on the BBC news).
It was even fine for that length of time - a little wet inside but nowhere near that of outside.

I don't think it's miracle stuff but it's better than a bin liner.

Dave - Moderator
Buffalo

One layer kind of commits you to the conditions you expect, I'd rather layer and be able to cope with warmer or coller temperatures.

Thats been disproven in recent tests. Fewer layers that can be better varied (mostly ventilation) are better suited to some activities, including a few high energy ones.

I've got an eVent jacket whose performance is either ok with one base layer I have or very good with a different base layer. The good base layer is a £10 Altura one the not so good one is a DHB. The Altura one ends up damp on the outside but feels much dryer on the inside whereas the DHB one feels as damp inside as out. So my view is get the base layer right first before you worry about what is going over it.

"Buffalo

One layer kind of commits you to the conditions you expect, I'd rather layer and be able to cope with warmer or coller temperatures."

i disagree, the venting of a montane / buffalo style top is why it can work across a wider temp range than you expect it to, and you don't need to stop and faff relayering to suit conditions or effort. ideal when riding or confined for space on a crag.

what gets me is than manufactures live in a fantasy world, my Gill Speed Pro was replacement for a model of the same material (eVent) but it had pit zips, excellent idea, so what did they do... phase them out on the Speed Pro because the materials breathability meant they were not required.
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Muppets!

Couldn't agree more I have a Gill eVent jacket and it's been a massive disappointment - real boil-in-the-bag. Desperately needs pit zips.

IME I have had waterproof and breathable jackets from Sprayway,TNF,Lowe Alpine,Berghause and Karrimor .The only one that is fully waterproof is the Karrimor jacket and thats the only goretex one , None of these are any good for riding though.

Pertex is the best I have had for riding

just my opinion

who realy cares?

I wear my waterproofs only when it gets seriously cold and wet. that's when they work their best, and that's in order to keep me from freezing my nipples off!

IMO anything above ~10 Deg C when raining is best dealt with using (at most a gilet) and normal riding gear.

also when up the top of helvellyn in november during a force 10, you also appreciate a proper waterproof

I too like the buffalo concept, rather be warm and wet from rain than cold and wet from sweat..

freeandsingle - Member
I too like the buffalo concept, rather be warm and wet from rain than cold and wet from sweat..

Dunt work like that IME..... You storm up the hill overheating and getting soaked with sweat then stop for 10 mins whilst you merrily freeze even though you've done up all the zips and put yer hood up. If it's really raining you just get wet to the bone, then really cold when you stop. With Buffalo I usually end up carrying a base layer, shell and pertex just in case... not exactly light or efficient.

My all time favourite is a base and pertex and going for it at every opportunity. On the go, mostly warm enough/generating enough heat with the base layer. Bit colder, add Pertex. Colder still? Microfleece mid layer. In this country during high energy hill work, I rarely use more than a base/mid/pertex combo or breathable shell if pishing down. Buffalo is good for sitting on belays tho...

Mountain biking I use even less insulation as I generate more heat.

Been using Gore-Tex since the first Mistral's in the late 70's. Not tried Event yet as I have a motley collection of XCR/Pro/Paclite to get through first....

Paramo.

I've had my alta jacket for more than ten years now and I've never been wet in it. It is weird though because it feels like you are wet but you're not. It's heavy, warm, sometimes too warm and not especially stylish but neither am I. On winter days in the mountains you progressively zip up and put your hood up as you get higher - the cut and draughtproofing works for me. I've worn it most days in that ten years and it's pretty shabby now but no less effective!

Another vote for Paramo here, particularly if you use their mountain shirt as a base layer. Generally I just use a mountain shirt with a simple wind proof, if it gets really bleak I chuck on there full jacket, and it dries out the inner layer.

At the end of the day much of it comes down to how much you perspire, I have friends that are fine in Goretex, I just feel like boil in the bag for any thing other than gent walks.