[Closed] Do you believe in Gortex and it claims.......????

No, I use eVent instead.

Well its kind of the whole waterproof breathable thing in general....

Gortex is very waterproof but not as breathable as event, for fast sports like running or biking you must wear proper wicking fabrics below. My wife runs in her gortex jacket when it rains and although the inside of the jacket gets wet she herself is dry and I find the same with my Fusion gortex jacket. I dont think that there will ever be a totally waterproof jacket that breathes totally as well so there will always be comprimises. If you wear a good wicking fabric below the jacket then it removes the moisture from the skin and should stop the cold shivers when you stop riding. I also carry a dry base layer on big days out and it feels great when you are freezing at the top of the last climb and you slip the dry layer on.
Hope this helps.

Well, the way I see it is, waterproof is waterproof. A bin bag is waterproof. Breathable is what really matters to me, so I choose to use eVent as I have found it to be much more breathable than anything else.

Too bloody expensive anyway.

I did have some GoreTex walking shoes and the waterproofing lasted less than a year. My feet were always damn hot in them too. Got some eVent ones now and they are definitely cooler, time will tell if they last better.

Should try Paramo

The other thing to note is that Gortex has now lost the patent or the patent has now ran out so other companies can now make the fabric and improve on it, ie Endura, their new fabric is basically a copy of Gortex but its much more breathable, their new jackets look good.

a copy of Gortex but its much more breathable

Goretex for walking/work jackets where it's steady exertion in truly filthy weather.

eVent for biking where it's high exertion in slightly less disgusting conditions.

Does it work?

Have you ever tried wearing a pre gore-tex "dry" suit?

I've got a stupifyingly expensive musto sailing jacket, worth every penny of the £10 it cost in a charity shop. But compared to £100 sailing jackets I've had its the muts nuts, I've worn it with a base layer in weather down to -5 and upto 35, feels just the same inside. worst offender though is my race face atlas jacket, waterproof, and probably slightly breathable, but is very definately a case of boil in the bag!

IMO it works best in low intensity aplications where your not sweating buckets, so sailing kit, bivi bags, etc.

I've got a 10 year old Lowe Alpine 'ceramic' membrane breathable jacket. The 'breathable' membrane is barely in existence anymore, having flaked away into little pieces, yet the jacket is still waterproof and breathable.

The secret?

Finishing the jacket with a good waterproofing treatment. Rainwater beads on the surface of the nylon outer fabric, I remain dry - and body moisture permeates through the outer fabric quite happily.

It's more 'breathable' now than it ever was! 😀

Backhander, I spoke to the guy from Endura at the bike show in Earls court, he said the if you make the holes in the fabric bigger then it is less waterproof but more breathable and vice versa and Gore cant be that great as they sold us all up the river with their paclite fabric that was as breathable as a bin liner.

I've always considered that 'breathable' garments work best when the weather / atmosphere is dry therefore allowing the moisture wicked away from your body to dissipate. A waterproof and breathable garment worn in the wettest weather will always be compromised; it may not let the rain in but, equally, your sweat cannot escape into the atmosphere.

psling, exactly, kind of defeats the whole point give that thats when it will be worn

I went out on the STW southern ride to Swinley at the start of the month. It rained all moning. I was wearing Goretex paclite and lifa base layer on my upper body and Event waterproof trousers on my legs with no base layer. I was comfortable on my top half but by the end of the morning my legs were very sweaty. I have found that you certainly need a wicking layer next to a breathable fabric for maximum benefit.

Has anyone tried Ventile and can you still get clothing made of it?

I remember being issued the old "crisp packet" jacket and trous.
Every one on the ex with goretex was as comfy as could be expected, where as [b]all[/b] the blokes with the old kit were p1ss wrapped, shivering etc.
I for one will never moan about Gtex, Event or paclite.

I use a gore fusion jacket in winter and don't have an issue with breathability at all, it's also the most waterproof jacket I've ever used. But as above if you wear something daft like a cotton t-shirt under it then it's gonna get wet.

[i]their new fabric is basically a copy of Gortex but its much more breathable, their new jackets look good[/i]

Which endura jacket are you using glynP?

I think Gotre Tex's own description tells you it cant work,
It will let out vapour as the holes are small enough to allow this, but once your sweat has condensed to liquid its then water proof from the inside as they say water droplets are to big to pass through the membrane...

their paclite fabric that was as breathable as a bin liner

amen brother

Gore cant be that great as they sold us all up the river with their paclite fabric that was as breathable as a bin liner

I've always found Paclite to be by far the most breathable of the range, it's all the same membrane anyway, what differentiates them is the way the membrane is applied and how many layers there are

all these fabric require a large temp differential to work - often even if you are hot and sweaty and it is cold outside this is not enough..

http://www.psychovertical.com/?thetruthaboutbreathablewaterproofs

I think performance varies hugely.

My walking jacket (Sprayway Goretex) is rubbish. The waterproof finish lasts about 5 minutes, then the rain soaks in and the jacket can't breathe.

My contrast, my Gore paclite cycling jacket is great. It needs re-treating once every six months and that's it. It only gets sweaty when pedalling hard, but I doubt that any other jackets would cope with a sweaty MTBer labouring up a steep hill. But you do need to wear a wicking base layer underneath or it won't breathe at all.

I like the look of these Paramo jackets - any owners on here?

My Gore-Tex is fine. Can get a little warm but for me it's fine as I find I get too warm with more than just a short-sleeved jersey (unless it's actually raining), for the very little money paid for what I got I consider it a decent jacket. The only time I get wet is through my own sweat, it's near-enough-as-makes-no-difference 100% waterproof

(having said that it's army surplus, not sure if that makes any difference to composition or design)

...the only downside being it's DPM, which despite looking cool means I'm a little harder to find when things go wrong

backhander - You should have worn your Chinese fighting suit underneath it, you'd have been nice and toasty, well at least until that got wet too.

It is what it is, and it's important to remember that the other things you're wearing are just as important. So if you're wearing a cotton t-shirt under your £200 jacket you're effectively wasting your money. Personally I find eVent is better, but in general I avoid wearing waterproofs for as long as possible because they're just not breathable enough.

That doesn't make them useless, and they're still a lot better than they've ever been, but they're not miracle fabrics. You just need realistic expectations and a bit of common sense.

At the end of the OP's first link it says:
[i]No garment is breathable and waterproof [/i]
which isn't true. EVent steams and is waterproof so how is it not breathable? Of course breathable doesn't mean "breathes as if it wasn't there" but that's where the unrealistic expectations come in.

Lightweight GoreTex walking shoes have specific problems with the booty wearing and leaking. Once they leak, they get wet and stay wet. Leather or Leather+ gore is better in proper wet/rough situations.

I find packlite OK but still get wet if exerting hard in rain. Wicking layers underneath make a big difference to comfort. It's way better than a bin liner.

I've never had much luck with spray-on or wash-in coatings - they don't seem to stick, probably because of surface contamination.

Would like to try Event - next jacket will probably be Event.

I've found my Event jacket to be markedly more breathable that any previous waterproof I've owned.

For biking I rate Event above goretex - just seems to work better for me. That may or may not be because Event allows water through as a vapour but goretex needs it to condense back to a liquid to pass through the membrane.

goretex is never going to breathe enough to cope with the sweat / heat a rider can produce, i only use it if it's utterly pissing it down, any other time goretex seems totally pointless to me.

for all other occasions, windproofs with DWR coating or a thin pertex/pile based jacket work far better. i'd ratehr have a non-WP top that dries fast and breathes well.

Ha S&J, you've actually taken your chinese fighting suit into the field?
F*** THAT!

One interesting thing here, seems that all of us who have used eVent rate it more highly than other fabrics we've used. In the past I've tried various Gore formats, Lowe's Triple Point Ceramic etc and I would agree, eVent knocks them all in to a cocked hat.

Part of the problem here is ignorance. Was talking to the folks in my LBS and LOS (Outdoor!) at the weekend and they both said that people come in saying, "I need a Gore-tex" when what they mean is, "I need a breathable waterproof". Perception is a strong thing, and if more companies use eVent it can only help!

That said, I think I'm going to try one of hte new Endura ones as well. They look a very well thoguth out jacket, so worth trying the fabric out to see.

CFH, aye its like when ya need a new hoover you go and and come back with say a Dyson and say you have a new hoover.... 😕

Has anyone tried Ventile and can you still get clothing made of it?

Yes and yes. And no, you don't really want to use it as a biking waterproof.

Nagsnog, not yet, but nearly. There's a tipping point at which a term becomes generic such as is the case with hoover, sellotape and others. However, people will buy a "Dyson hoover" or some "3M sellotape"

The way that people buy waterproofs in the outdoor sector at the moment is to buy a gore-tex, as opposed to buying an eVent gore-tex.

Not sure that totally makes sense, but was what I was discussing with people in the trade at the weekend. makes enough sense for me, though!

Buffalo:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/

http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/Mail_Order_Buffalo_41.html

They make a load of outdoor clothes that are based on the idea that breathable waterproofs that still work when you are doing hard exercise don't exist. So instead, they make things that keep you warm when wet, breathe very well and dry very quickly. Designed to be worn without base layers or other layers and all that gubbins. People I know who have them (and use them for winter climbing etc) absolutely swear by them. They are kind of pricey, although not as pricey as the more expensive goretex and event jackets.

Joe

I like the look of these Paramo jackets - any owners on here?

Yes. And some Furtech stuff which is similar. It makes this whole breathability vs waterproofness argument irrelevant.

I did have some GoreTex walking shoes and the waterproofing lasted less than a year.

It's a membrane, it'll never lose it'w waterproofness. What likely happened was that parts of the shoe structure that permeate all the layers (stitching) lost their DWP (Durable Water Repellent) coating.

The other thing to note is that Gortex has now lost the patent or the patent has now ran out so other companies can now make the fabric and improve on it, ie Endura, their new fabric is basically a copy of Gortex but its much more breathable

Gore only patented the generalised technique for creating the *tex fabric. The actual manufacture process is a closely guarded secret.

schoeller eXtra dry anyone? (spelling?)

you get wet fairly easily, but you stay warm as it's windproof, and the second it stops raining you start to dry off. Brilliant.

The actual manufacturing process is a closely guarded secret, rubbish!

Anyway what are we all talking about, just looked at chain reaction and the new Campag waterproof is a whopping £439 so it MUST be waterproof and MUST be breathable if not how do they justify the cost.

Event is more breathable as the holes are larger but also means that its not as waterproof although I,ve never really noticed this. I have a gore fusion and an Endura event, the event is more breathable and the gore better suited to really awfull cold and wet days both are brilliant!
Having said all this I only wear them when I have to

joemarshall, i agree 100%, buffalo's rule, even if they can look a bit geeky. i won't go into the mountains without my buffalo belay jacket, i love it. the Montane pertex/pile range looks great too, same idea. Montane are working on some bike-orientated stuff with one of our team riders who's got aims in snow racing, looking forward to seeing if they go ahead with it.

Buffalo stuff is cool but not so much use for those summer showers!

It's all relative, my Altura Attack jacket (which is React Extreme I think) is completely waterproof, and moderately breathable. Better than a more traditional waterproof in both directions. But, still not perfect.