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As someone with a legitimate* need for a relatively high stem (handlebars pretty much level with saddle) I'd be interested to know what the criteria for 'too high' is. Fashion?
Stem height and aerodynamic position have a relationship. A good road rider can hold a reasonable aerodynamic position for protracted periods of time with a good power output. If you can only do one and not the other (or neither) you are likely not a good rider if defined by ability to get from A to B quickly or hold onto a group. As I slip into middle age by ability to do this for the exact same reasons as your are diminishing quickly.
Plenty of road bikes are slammed to look fast leaned against the cafe wall but I reckon for most 8-10cm is a 'fast' bike in real life. Level doesn't make you one of the cool kids but if it gets you out then why not.
At the pro level I reckon it's of little relevance - a good committed rider could handle pretty much any discipline that suits their psychology and physiology.
At the participant punter level no way would any casual mtb-er cope with a half serious road club run - they'd be blowing out their ass after 1hr and gagging for a litre of "sports drink".
Hobbyist mtb really is the lowest level as regards handling skills and fitness, however many gadgets and add-ons you may have most are still just bifters on bling bikes 😛
Definitely better from a personal POV; my road cycling buddy is faster than me but badly lacks confidence on descents where I usually pass him. 22 years of mountain biking has given me more confidence in the bike, though not necessarily more skill!
I do road and mtb roughly 50/50.If you take out technical descents I find it much easier to get a Strava front page result off road.
Road riding is dull and therefore attracts the types who get obsessed by performance.
Hmm, silly me, there was I enjoying road riding and yet not being obsessed with performance.
By dull do you actually mean 'requires a slightly longer attention span'? 8)
Stem height and aerodynamic position have a relationship. A good road rider can hold a reasonable aerodynamic position for protracted periods of time with a good power output.
Yeah fair point, I realised this after I'd posted. I guess I'm just touchy having finally conceded defeat and flipped my stem up!
someone crashed into him and pushed him into a barrier?I thought that too until Chris Froome single handedly blew it out the water with his innate inability to remain vertical when the road gets moist.
the skills are different though, being able to pick a line through a rock garden or BigAir won't help on a road bike - the only thing that does transfer is cornering
the only thing that does transfer is cornering
Dya reckon? I've introduced a few MTBers to roadbiking and it takes them ages to get the confidence to load the front wheel.
Mountain bike cornering is more about distributing weight to get the most out of any available grip, and being able to control drift/slip etc.
I wouldn't even say line choice is particularly transferable as the 'racing line' isn't always the best on a mountain bike...
It's taken me a long time to get comfortable going fast around corners on a road bike. The speeds you build up to can be quite daunting but they get easier as you get used to it. I'm a having a mental flap at about 50mph at the moment and comfort braking.
On the MTB it's similar but usually based on the surface. Coming down off the top of the Mosettes chairlift in the snow a few years ago scared the crap out of me at a fraction of the speed it'd bother me on the road and it took a day or two before I was comfortable getting off the brakes on the loose rocky fireroads in the alps too.
I'd guess that a rider at the very top of their game would do well in both disciplines. Nino Schurter did a great job in the two races he did for Orica-Greenedge last year and was part of the lead group on the biggest mountain stage until a mechanical dropped him off.
I've been MTBing for the past 20 years and road biking for the last 10. The only advantage I reckon I had moving to the road was being more comforable on descents. I'm constantly surprised how afraid some roadies get by high speed descents becuase compared to blasting down the side of a welsh mountain most road descents are quite tame.
But really, this is an utterly pointless thread with no definitive answer, so I'm not even going to post a comment...
....ahh my cover is blown 🙄 .....but isn't being utterly pointless the key to a good thread?? 😆
I'm constantly surprised how afraid some roadies get by high speed descents becuase compared to blasting down the side of a welsh mountain most road descents are quite tame.
It's a confidence thing.
I'd grown up as a mountain biker and always loved decending. And as comes with the teritory of being a relatively slow crap mountain biker you fall off a lot but when you do it tends to be fairly low speed and you know it's going to happen. Any you generally get up and you and the bike are fine. You also nearly crash a lot where you lose it a bit but manage to save it.
When you start road biking you suddenly start going very fast down hill but it seems easy because there aren't any rocks. Then you fall off the road bike and realise how little warning you get, how much it hurts and how much expensive kit you trash. You don't nearly fall off a road bike very often, one min it's ok and then you are lying on the floor clutching your shoulder. Then it takes a long time to get confidence in the front wheel back.
I had my first big road off this winter, lost the front wheel on a patch of ice while decending. Ouchy. Took warmth and dry roads before I stopped decending like Bradley Wiggins.
there are plenty of 'roadies' who are happy to plod along at 14-15mph on their rides
I averaged 10.4mph on my road ride yesterday. I'd have loved to average 14-15 mph.
In my defence the 79 miles had 2500m of ascent (including a few 1 in 5s that I just can't seem to do more than a few tens of meters on) and twisty poorly surfaced 1 in 4 road descents freak me out.
I'm also a mediocre MTBer though.
compared to blasting down the side of a welsh mountain most road descents are quite tame.
Only if you mince. Road descents are scary because of how fast you can go, and how quickly the wheels let go. I have done lots of both, and I back off on the road bike when I get to the point where an impact would kill me. On the mtb the harder trails are rocky and steep, and that keeps your speed down so if you hit a tree it's only at 17mph rather than 50.
This thread is useless without 'him' (thank gawd for kill file 😀 ).
compared to blasting down the side of a welsh mountain most road descents are quite tame.
What a ridiculous statement. The most scared and adrenalin fuelled I've ever been was descending Col Du Joux Plane in a rainstorm on a road bike. Utterly terrifying.
Oh dear, not another one!
Do MTB riders make better roadies?
Once they've finally ditched the camelback, baggies and helmet peak, sorted out their riding positions, got the miles in... etc.
As has been said though, really depends on the individual, plenty of people in both categories happy to pootle around between coffee and cake / beer stops.
About the only thing I've found personally that I get from mtb that benefits on the road is being comfortable when the bike gets out of shape. So heavy breaking, two wheel slides, sketchy road conditions, etc. (But then I know mtb riders who aren't comfortable with that sort of thing!)
I read an article once that said MTB(xc) riders put out higher power due to the terrain but roadies avg higher due to the constant peddling. What's the cliche as well, MTB'ers that don't ride road have no legs and roadies that don't ride MTB have no soul 🙂
When I coach roadies, the single most transferable skill from mtb is cornering. Good myb riders corner confidently and are used to looking far beyond the immediate apex.
Good bike handlers will do fine in any discipline. There isn't a huge difference between a cross race and an XC race to be honest.
I've been on mtb rides with my road club before and it's true than some fast ones on the road aren't so off road as they can't cope with the constant acceleration and have poor bike handling.
However the fastest 2 road riders I know are also the 2 fastest off road as they have both have amazing fitness and bike handling.
I get my arse handed to me on a 17 / 18 club run by one guy who has bought a decent mtb this year.
On the 2 off road rides I have done with him I have managed to return the compliment. He is now looking at new kit , what tyres for.... etc , when alot of it is down to confidence and time on the bike.
On a road ride I struggle to keep a steady output,I like going banzai on the steeper climbs then pay for it later on high speed flat sections ( 20+ ). Still don't entirely trust the others I ride with as some calls dont get passed back and there can be some swerving around manholes. Seem to struggle when on the front to keep the pace similar and either split the group or back everyone up .
Also on the road I am quite polite and do drop off to ' pull back ' others who are dropped out the group. I find that hard to slow to let them get on my wheel , then steadily accelerate to overspeed the main group and get everyone back together .
Decending , nothing in it. Although the roadies who ride sports motorbikes tend to be pretty fearless on the fast decents .
FWIW I have a roadie mate who will leave me for dead climbing on the road and scares me trying to hold his wheel downhill on a road bike.
He's had a boardman full sus for 18 months or so. On non technical climbs he's capable of kicking my arse, downhill it's a different story, I can lose him with ease on my hardtail when we're descending and twice he's hurt himself pretty badly trying to follow me down stuff (and I'm not Sam Hill by any means!)
My 2 cents is road fitness translates better to mtb than the other way around but good road descending/ bike handing means little for mtb. It takes time (& a certain mindset) to be comfortable with getting loose like mtb descending requires!
My 2 cents is road fitness translates better to mtb than the other way around but good road descending/ bike handing means little for mtb. It takes time (& a certain mindset) to be comfortable with getting loose like mtb descending requires!
That's the conclusion i was leaning towards.
FOr me personally I've done road rides and MTB rides with a bunch of 7-8 lads locally. They're active roadies and minor MTBers.
Out of the bunch, I'm one of if not the slowest roadie... but I'm one of the faster MTBers. I even seem to climb and flat better than the roadies when on the MTb, so it's not all about skills/handling... I don't know the reason in all honesty.
I think someone said it above somewhere. Road fitness is often about long steady efforts, they talk about getting in a rhythm when climbing, mtb is often lots of little spurts of energy, if a climb is rough it's hard to pedal a steady rhythm the whole time because you're lifting the bike up over roots and rocks etc plus off road climbs are often far steeper in sections than some road climbs
If you mtb more then your legs might cope with this sort of effort better (along with better handling and probably line choice!)
Back on the MTB today after a couple of weeks of road only. Amazing how quickly you adapt from one riding style to another, felt strange at first, different riding position, muscles and technique. Must say i would prefer log slow climb and a 25mph max decent down a piece of single-track any day to a sprint and 40mph on a bit of tarmac! Fine to try the dark side for a change though. 😉
are all these comments still based on your 4mile almost flat commute griffiths1000? 😉
amedias - Memberare all these comments still based on your 4mile almost flat commute griffiths1000?
Some nice flat bits but not this [url= https://www.strava.com/activities/290474575/segments/6820855530 ]Burray Bends Rising[/url]
Do it 4 times a day and managed second to top time on wednesday,just the fastest lycra clad speed shoes wearing roadiie in the area ahead of me- a balding 40+ shirt, trousers & shoes wearing MTBer, KOM next time maby??? 😆
amedias you ever re-build that Kona A?
amedias you ever re-build that Kona A?
Built it as an almost exact copy of my original one but with discs, but then sadly not fixed after it [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stw-group-hug-required-frame-snapped- ]snapped[/url], I gave the back end to someone else who had one for spares as I couldn't find a spare front end anywhere, really miss that quirky old bike!
It had a good innings though and got ridden hard!
Bummer, at leas it died doing what it was made for!
yeah, it's joined a long list of frames KIA under me 🙁
Most times these comparisons aren't comparing like with like though.
I reckon a 'full-on' XC mountain biker is going to be a fitter rider than a 'full-on' road cyclist. You only have to listen to the incredulous comments from ex-roadies when commentating on XC mtb races on the TV, about how high and sustained the riders heart rates are, etc.
If that was the case, then why are they not hitting the roads for the big bucks?
Macavity, try as I might I can't quite work out what you're trying to demonstrate with that link, care to elaborate a bit as I'm clearly missing something obvious 😳
If that was the case, then why are they not hitting the roads for the big bucks?
maybe they don't enjoy it as much ?
I reckon a 'full-on' XC mountain biker is going to be a fitter rider than a 'full-on' road cyclist. You only have to listen to the incredulous comments from ex-roadies when commentating on XC mtb races on the TV, about how high and sustained the riders heart rates are, etc.
For 90 minutes. Not for 6 hours, day after day. Bit like Mo Farah commentating on the 100m!
Anyone who thinks roadies lack "skillz" hasn't tried to hop sideways onto a traffic island at 50mph in a bunch sprint.
the rest is just willy waving and bullshit
Anyone who thinks roadies lack "skillz" hasn't tried to hop sideways onto a traffic island at 50mph in a bunch sprint.
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For 90 minutes. Not for 6 hours, day after day. Bit like Mo Farah commentating on the 100m!
different types of fitness then, but not less fit.
being able to pick a line through a rock garden or BigAir won't help on a road bike - the only thing that does transfer is cornering
I tend to be happier going down terribly surfaced roads at speed compared to my fitter road riding mates. I go backward compared to them going uphill mind. Alpine stuff I need to get my head around the increased speed possible on the road before I start pushing it. Having said that my fastest road speed was on the descent to Brotherswater. Chasing cars is fun!
I'm doing a charity road ride on Monday - first time doing more than a couple of road miles in over twenty years. I'll be riding my 456 and I suspect the answer in my case will be a slow, wheezy, purple-faced no.
I'll be riding my 456 and I suspect the answer in my case will be a slow, wheezy, purple-faced no.
but that won't be comparable - you will be in much less efficient position on the bike and your tyres will have loads more drag than their skinny 23c tyres.
but that won't be comparable - you will be in much less efficient position on the bike and your tyres will have loads more drag than their skinny 23c tyres.
You forgot about my complete lack of long distance fitness too.
I can't properly compare myself to anyone except me as i seriously doubt any roadie would be as unfit as me. On the flip side, i don't see many being a fast down a hill as me*
*Based on my one and only strava ride where i was fastest on long steep downhill segment while riding a FS bike - in an inefficient riding position and shod with supertacky HRs, and not really trying. No swooning at the back - it's science backed up with data 😛
Chasing cars is fun!
Over took a tractor the other day, got a big thumbs up from the driver. 😆
I reckon a 'full-on' XC mountain biker is going to be a fitter rider than a 'full-on' road cyclist. You only have to listen to the incredulous comments from ex-roadies when commentating on XC mtb races on the TV, about how high and sustained the riders heart rates are, etc.
some XC racers have managed to transition to road riding quite successfully- Jean Christophe Peraud podiumed last year in the TdeF - but it's the sustained effort over long periods that roadies do over and above mtb racers. A few pundits last year mentioned that Peraud was in such good shape for his age because he hadn't spent years riding himself into the ground in the way pro roadies do, and he was likely to have a longer career because of it.
The average recreational MTBer will be more technically competent but less aerobically fit than the average recreational roadie. Most pros in either field do both as complementary training (along with the F1 and MotoGP guys), and the likes of Marianne Vos and Ferrand-Prevot seem equally happy and successful on fat, thin, knobbly or slick tyres.
I have gone from the back of my circle of MTB mates to the front on climbs since I took up road riding, and luckily haven't lost the bike handling skills (touches wood and doesn't include getting taken out by someone else on Roubaix Pave...).