[Closed] discrimination against groups

beans - I suggest you brush up your reading and comprehension skills if that's the question you think I was asking.

You may not have but you can join the groups doing the representation. Honestly though it's something that works, it's a good idea and it works. Trying to argue this one down is fairly pointless, as the article on the front page states there is plenty of other stuff to do in Snowdonia.

Unless of course all you want is an argument.

I thought you asked what would happen if the ban was ignored.

Or did you mean if just I ignored it and no-one else?

[quote=mikewsmith ]Unless of course all you want is an argument.

I've told you once

Try reading the exact words, beans - it does help

OK aracer I give up, I'm just not as clever as you.

I agree then with you. If there is conflict over access then the minority should agree to go elsewhere or face being banned.

catschroedinger - Member

horseriders get uppery and don't take shit

Do many people ride horses up Snowdon?

If there is conflict over access then the minority should agree to go elsewhere or face being banned.

[quote=dangerousbeans ]OK aracer I give up, I'm just not as clever as you.

Gosh, it wasn't supposed to be an intelligence test. Here's what I wrote with the crucial word bolded:

What will happen to [b]you [/b]if you ignore it?

The point being that things which are not voluntary (ie compulsory) there is some defined consequence for the person not doing that thing. You ride Snowdon during the "banned" hours and there is precisely nothing anybody can do to you.

You're getting confused between things being compulsory and things having consequences. I volunteer to do IT support in school - the consequence of me not doing so is that the IT doesn't always work properly (note that is different to where something is compulsory as there is no direct consequence on me).

I agree then with you. If there is conflict over access then the minority should agree to go elsewhere or face being banned.

Is it because I is cyclist?

NW - that's what I said 😉

Oh ffs Dangerous - go and ride Snowdon through the crowds if you like - you've been given all the information you need to come to a reasonable decision. It's not the thin end of some paranoid wedge, whereupon we'll shortly be banned from the mountains, it's just a sensible idea to reduce serious land use conflict.

It's just semantics (as has been said).

"voluntary ban" is an oxymoron - voluntary agreement would be more accurate.

Other than using the wrong word - this all seems perfectly sensible to me. Do we have to legislate for everything? Can't we all just get along... think of the children, etc

[i]Recently Snowdonia National Park Authority has become aware that a minority of mountain bikers have been breaking the curfew[/i]

and

[i]Concerns have also been raised about erosion on the mountain. The threat in response to repeated curfew violations would be to ban cyclists from the mountain altogether, which clearly isn’t a good thing. [/i]

Now, I'm happy with the status quo, riding through the hordes of walkers is awful, and outside the curfew the mountain is quiet, the views gorgeous, and I've seen sunsets that made me stop and stare...However, those statements make me uneasy. 😐 That looks like the opening shots of an organisation making the way ready for something more: "Has become aware" ,"concerns over erosion" it's wording like this that's used to justify harsher treatment.

best get up there soon I reckon.

It sounds like you're (the OP) is arguing over a point of principle. Up here in Scotland (although I've ridden a lot and lived in England & wales) there are no such restrictions. However there is absolutely no way I would consider trying to ride one of the popular hills (say Ben Lomond) at mid day on a weekend. It would be no fun for me or the hordes of walkers. So, although I'm not banned from doing it, I just wouldn't.

Concerns have also been raised about erosion on the mountain.

Yes, I read that and raised an eyebrow.
Probably concerned that we're wearing out the steps of the cafe.
[img] [/img]

Calling it a curfew is a misnomer - maybe better to call it timetabling. What it achieves - if cyclists go up early -is they come down when walkers are going up - that means you are riding down and all the walkers can see you coming. Its better for them, but its also better for you. If you're coming down while walkers are also descending, walking with their backs to you, then apart from it being intimidating for them, they're more of an obstruction for you, they've less notice of you coming and can do less to accommodate you.

So the 'ban' is mutually beneficial, you get a better ride out of it and an excuse to eat two breakfasts.

Some interesting comments. As an administrator with NWMBA I know of the work that has gone into providing and maintaining access for ALL user groups on Snowdon. The Voluntary ban is there for a reason, and it is in place at certain times to avoid conflict and incident. Both NWMBA, local rights of way officers and other user groups agreed this was the best compromise, and a great deal of time and work went in to this.
We can't stop riders from using the mountain at any time, we can't stick a bouncer on each route to enforce this, so please, please be sensible. We are a minority group and as such we need to be head and shoulders above the rest and try to be ambassadors for our sport. If we stick to the ban then i am sure we will continue to be able to enjoy the mountain for a long time to come. When the time comes to revisit our access rights, if we show we can use the mountain responsibly that can only be a good thing.
Oh, and please dont ride down the railway line either. That is a no no anytime of year. 🙂

It's not very well worded from the parks authority, so I abridged and improved the statement:

Don't be a dick.

Whats the fuss all about, it's a bit of a lump with some rocks on it, whats the facination of "doing" Snowdon?
I did it back in the early 90's on my Klein Attitude and it was bloody horrible, far better riding in and around the area than a one up one down affair.
Pansies, get out and ride somewhere else far quieter and more fun and respect that others want to have access to this lump too without you lot of fullface helmet/pajama wearing/"to the max"/lucazade quaffing ponces hacking down shouting "strava" at every peaceful walker and thier Mum out for a bit of freash air.

Jeeze,
a
life
one
get

Reorder that if you are able to. 🙄

If you're riding for recreational purposes, why would you want to ride such a crowded route anyway?
People generally only walk up Snowdon because it's the default Welsh mountain to walk up.
I've never been there. Is it any better than any other Welsh mountain for cycling on, or is it a similar lack of imagination that draws cyclists there?

I reckon that if they want us off the hill by 10.00, then they should put an early train on for us once a week as an uplift session - Sunday mornings 8.30 departure sounds good 😀

bikebouy
Whats the fuss all about, it's a bit of a lump with some rocks on it, whats the facination of "doing" Snowdon?

.................................

Pansies, get out and ride somewhere else far quieter and more fun and respect that others want to have access to this lump too.

Oh the irony, a moronic attempt at playing the intellect if ever I saw one.

dangerousbeans - Member

Aracer - you answered your own question about what will happen if mtbers ignore the partial ban. It will be made permanent.

Mike - I never appointed anyone to give away my rights.

Um. The voluntary ban is about us demonstrating our responsibilities... 😯

If you're riding for recreational purposes, why would you want to ride such a crowded route anyway?
People generally only walk up Snowdon because it's the default Welsh mountain to walk up.
I've never been there. Is it any better than any other Welsh mountain for cycling on, or is it a similar lack of imagination that draws cyclists there?

We normaly organise a club ride once a year (before the restrictions), up the Llanberis path, down the rangers and along the telegraph trail. We make a good full day with lunch in llanberis too. The riders we often meet are just ticking off the mountain as done that, where next or are filling in a weekend with Snowdon on one day, trail center the next. It is a challenge but i suppose once you have done it, why do it again.

 

Mike - I never appointed anyone to give away my rights.

No, but did you ever volunteer or donate towards getting anyone to defend them?

Riding up/down snowdon when the ban is in place I am pretty sure would be a rubbish experience, I guess I'm ok with it, however...

Or perhaps, in the spirit of fairness, walkers have a voluntary ban say one day per fortnight, so that bikers can enjoy the mountains.

Woohoo, go redsox!

I won't comment on the voluntary agreement, but I rode Snowdon last October on a Saturday (not a desperately nice day either). From the top down to the railway line was bloody awful. Way, way, WAY too busy to do anything other than scoot/push.

I was also shocked quite how much the Ranger Path had eroded since I'd last ridden it 3 years earlier. Sadly I think it's become a victim of it's own success, hence the reconstruction work, now taking place.

I was also shocked quite how much the Ranger Path had eroded since I'd last ridden it 3 years earlier. Sadly I think it's become a victim of [s]it's own success[/s] weather

I don't get why anyone would go back and ride Snowdon again. Yes elements of the descent are good but that long a push up/all day for that?

The voluntary ban/agreement is essentially there for people who lack common sense.

The voluntary ban/agreement is essentially there for people who lack common sense.

+1

The end result of people lacking commonsense could well be a total ban...

This idea that we should be able to rag it down at whatever speed we like, whenever we want is the same attitude a lot of drivers have - and which is the biggest barrier to new riders taking up cycling (safety being the most quoted reason for not taking up cycling)

Regulation is only ever needed when people lack consideration or thought for the impact of their behaviour, and fail to exercise self-control

When we were there two riders came down not in control, not 'on it' just not in control at all. We (pushing up and a couple of walkers) had to quickly move sideways. We laughed but I remember saying 'do they know what their doing' (laughing to one of the walkers who was walking whilst chatting to us).

I can see why there was a need for restriction on riders.

Not sure "common sense" is the right word, I'd avoid Snowdon and other tourist mountains at peak times because I know what they tend to be like but I don't think that's obvious... Loads of people are shocked by how busy it is up there, easy to see how people could just be caught unawares.

riding snowdon during the voluntary ban times will be one good way to rub up other users/the media/general public in totally the wrong way, for the sake of some idiots misguided and selfish point of view. so don't do it

Sorry for the C&P offensive but...

This idea that we should be able to rag it down at whatever speed we like, whenever we want

is the same attitude a lot of drivers have -

and which is the biggest barrier to new riders taking up cycling

*this isn't something I feel strongly about, I'm not about to start a campaign but while we're on the subject...

I don't get why anyone would go back and ride Snowdon again. Yes elements of the descent are good but that long a push up/all day for that?

a)The Llanberis path is mostly rideable up now. (not the carry up to the Crib Goch station tunnel), but you can have a pretty damn good stab at the rest of it, wind permitting.

b) It doesn't have to be all day. A straight Llanberis/Rangers/Telegraph valley is what, 3 - 3.5 hours?

c)That moment when you're smashing through the boulders at warp speed coming down the back of Cloggy and you drop out of the clouds into brilliant sunshine with the lakes glinting and that ginormous view. That's what I ride bikes for.

Have there been instants (regular?) of riders flouting the ban?

scandal42 - Member

Oh the irony, a moronic attempt at playing the intellect if ever I saw one.

I'm sure you know what you are talking about.

Walked up Snowdon twice last year during the ban, bikes up there both times.
It's unique when it comes to the sheer number of walkers and the subsequent problems of shared use.

Really? I'd step sideways and say 'oops ****'.

I'm sure you know what you are talking about.

Well it's a voluntary [b]agreement[/b] and has been in place for twenty years +/- a year or two. There'll always be some who either ride up/down Snowdon outside the agreed times but as others have said there's no personal penalty for doing so. I've not ridden up Snowden but it's not pleasant even walking it during peak weekends so can't imagine that it would be any better trying to ride it.

If the OP wants to see what [b]bans[/b] are like then look at climbing, there are quite a few crags where climbing is restricted either seasonally due to nesting birds or completely due to rare flora and fauna. These bans aren't simply tokens, they are backed up by law and flouting them, even in ignorance, can and does lead to prosecutions.

Fair? Who said anything about life being fair?

I think 1or2 days a month "voluntary ban" for walkers would be a nice gesture to show walkers appreciate we are valid mountain users, heck 1 day a year during the "ban" would do it I reckon, summer solstice?*

which is the biggest barrier to new riders taking up cycling

Who on earth tries that as a noob?

The Llanberis path is mostly rideable up now.

In Scotland you only have access rights if you exercise them responsibly.

It is not the free for all that people seem to think it is.

"If your recreation is one which is likely to cause a hazard (for example cycling fast or driving a cart or carriage with horses or dogs) you should take particular care not to cause risk to others. If you are on shared-use routes you must show care and consideration for others, deferring to those who are most vulnerable."

"On narrow routes, cycling may cause problems for other people, such as walkers and horse riders. If this occurs, dismount and walk until the path becomes suitable again. Do not endanger walkers and horse riders: give other users advance warning of your presence and give way to them on a narrow path."

Above quotes from the Scottish Outdoor Access Code. I am sure there will be an equivalent for Wales.

This idea is growing on me but there is no way we could get this info out to every single walker

*probably unfair but couldn't resist apologies 🙂

[i]Have there been instants (regular?) of riders flouting the ban?[/i]

This is the question isn't it, there's a world of difference between "didn't know" and "don't care" .