[Closed] Ding dong - Stainless 931 Cotic!

Oooh, only just seen this thread, and just when I've legitimised two bikes to replace my Soda on the basis that they didn't cost as much. I don't think it would take much to persuade me onto an XL Solaris shaped one - although it's a pity that the 44mm head tube isn't an option.

<emerges from shadows>

Carbon Soul.

<vanishes without trace>

@the lecht rocks - The Solaris is certified for up to 120mm forks, although I like mine with 100mm fixed travel forks as I'm not a fan of uppey downy forks. Not sure what a 931 version would be. Theoretically the same, but until we've had one on the rig I can't say for sure.

@northwind - Carbon Soul? Really? Genuinely interested in that point of view.

what about [url= http://www.kvastainless.com/bicycles.html ]KVA tubing?[/url] I think it's cheaper than Reynolds and is a similar weight to 931

If you could reproduce the geometry and ride feel of the Soul in a lightweight carbon form, I'd be one of many who'd be dead interested.

Or if you could do the Simple in that ace green colour that you did the prototype Solaris for Singletrack.... or do it in black.... or any other colour apart from the magnolia ones currently on the site.

Carbon Soul made with lugs and tubes. Like the MTB equivalent of a Look or Colnago.

Now that would be a thing to behold.

Now if only it came with sliding dropouts...

Now that would be a [s]thing to behold.[/s] fantastically expensive

Kva was intended to be awesome

Maybe in a larger than 19'' size ......... you know for us gangly ones ....

Yes we need frames in adult sizes

cy - Member

@northwind - Carbon Soul? Really? Genuinely interested in that point of view.

Purely weight driven tbh, nothing very complicated. I'd like something almost as strong and a little lighter than my carbon 456, with a little better geometry, and preserving as much of the ride quality of the Soul as can. Soda almost ticks the boxes but I loved my Soul with a long fork in.

But that's wish-fulfilment rather than a sensible model choice I expect.

@nothwind, does a aluminium soul not interest you

ill 3rd the call for a larger soul! bloody midgets

"Aluminium Soul" have you no soul?

Heresy!

Yes please - i'm 6ft 4" and have been through 2 seatposts since i built my Soul in November

A carbon or aluminium Soul would be so wrong

i'm 6ft 4" and have been through 2 seatposts since i built my Soul in November

That has nothing to do with the design of the frame and everything to do with your riding 'style'

cynic-al - Aluminium Soul +1!!

price seems expensive for what is essentially 'badged' stainless tubing that's made in taiwan (not U.K. made tubes). and not far off the price for a U.K. made frame with real Reynolds 953.

saying that i bet nobody can tell the difference between the 2 tubesets when built into frames (assuming similar o/d and wall thickness)

saying that i bet nobody can tell the difference between the 2 tubesets when built into frames (assuming similar o/d and wall thickness)

If the stiffness of the steels used is near-identical (as it is from DN6 to 853), you can bet on it.

cynic-al - Member
"Aluminium Soul" have you no soul?

Heresy!

on the contrary, I have a Cotic Soul, just he is asking about other materials, so thought I ask him the question.

seriously.... why not just get a bunch of frames chrome plated? People like the shiny shiny.

Why did people stop chroming bike frames - it was good enough for 80's BMXers

I had a nickel P7 in 1994... hmmm chrome...

You'll be wanting an eco friendly bamboo soul next

I really like it - takes me back to BMX days when I was a kid. They were chromed steel, but same ace look.

Timc...your joke detector needs turned up.

never mind turning up, a full reinstall i think, lost me now 😥

Cy:

I'm not a fan of uppey downy forks

What could be wrong with that?

I dunno about a carbon soul...I am thinking of picking up a steel one to try out of curiosity and one of the appeals of the soul is the 'good old' steel frameness.

If you do decide on a carbon version please pay lots of attention to not overbuilding the chainstays in vertical deflection. You could probably produce one for the similar price as the steel one and it would be nice to look into one of the newer manufacturing methods, maybe even see if they can be produced in the UK? I'm a supported of lot of the eastern produced composites but I do wonder if we could do it here for a similar cost.

What could be wrong with that?

The seat angle changes too, I had a set of 'zocchi Z1's with ETA on my 456, if the saddle was set up correctly for riding allong, then knocking it 6deg further forewards actualy made climbing slower as the position became uncomfortable. And modern forks don't bob like they used to so travel adjust is largely redundant IMO.

The seat angle changes too

So, steep climb, shorten the forks, drops the front end down and you're sitting more level than you would be, and can get your weight forwards easier.
Steep descent, extend the forks, lifts the front end up (drops the front wheel down), so you're sitting more level than you would be, can get your weight back easier.

I still don't see a problem.

timc - Member
ill 3rd the call for a larger soul! bloody midgets

Edric 64 - Member
Yes we need frames in adult sizes

cough:

[img] [/img]

I still don't see a problem.

I was refering to seat angle, as in the angle of the seatpost.

Try riding a TT bike with the saddle pushed forewards on its rails whilst sat upright, its really uncomfortable. That's why prety much all MTB's have settled on seat angles arround 71deg, thats comfortable, knocking it foreward to 77deg isn't, it inhibits everything from breathing to leg strength (they've not been trianed to work at that angle). Not quite the 80watt spacer mentioned on another thread, but probbaly inthat ball park (or certinaly felt it).

What you trying to say TheotherjonV - my riding style is soo smooth!!!

ahwiles - Member
cough:

that’s not an XL soul though is it, it’s a 29er equivalent 🙄

knocking it foreward to 77deg isn't

Besides, steeper seat angle pushes you forward, which is better for climbing, and vice versa.

IMO...

timc - my joke was about Souls being a mainstay of the steel is real brigade.

TINAS shortening your fork changes your angle relative to the ground but not your position/distances relative to bars, pedals etc. Def helps on steep climbs IMO, and at most is going to be around 3 degrees? (50mm sagged)

that’s not an XL soul though is it, it’s a 29er equivalent

very true.

Cy [i]could[/i] get some 22" souls made, but no-one would buy them, because they'd be bloody ugly, just like every man-size 26er.

18bikes are getting (have got?) a large* solaris demo bike, pop in, take it out. Don't forget to try the flapjack from the wooodbine cafe.

your life will be better for it - i promise.

(*an XL is available)

timc - Member

@nothwind, does a aluminium soul not interest you

Possibly, wouldn't mind building one up for XC racing I guess. But I'd be surprised/impressed if an alu soul didn't lose the ride quality of the steel one. For all the "steel is real" crowd are ridiculous, the Soul's one of the bikes that can walk that talk.

Some interesting points here guys. Regarding the forks thing, it's just a preference. Not right or wrong, just I like 120mm forks on my Soul and it does everything fine without having to worry about whether I've remembered to move the forks or have the 'wrong' setting. I can just get on with it.

Interesting talk about carbon and aluminium. I can't imagine we'd do an aluminium hardtail as it'd really only appeal to the privateer race market as far as I can tell and that's a) not very big, and b) not really our audience (in my opinion). I can't see why you wouldn't just 'put up' with the extra pound in weight with a steel Soul for your occasional race and have a completely ace all rounder bike all the rest of the time. The Soul's still lighter than all but the most eye-bleedingly expensive FS frames.

Carbon-wise, more than anything I'm surprised some of you think we do it credibly, given what a steel sniffer I am. I do like carbon in a lot of ways, I just think the way the bike industry have largely used it up to now is dumb, by pushing light weight at the expense of durability for something that isn't recyclable. The great thing about carbon if you don't worry too much about the weight as an end in itself is that you can make something of breath-taking durability which I like having in my products. It just takes a different approach to the design, and my carbon knowledge is rather out of date.

That's pretty much Santa Cruz's take on it with Blur LT/Nomad etc. They still won't do a carbon Chameleon, though 😉

great thing about carbon if you don't worry too much about the weight as an end in itself is that you can make something of breath-taking durability

Which is why I think an aluminium 456 would be good (like the mmmbop), there's no give in the steel one so why not make a light one.

so why not make a light one

My old (aluminium) Norco hardtail is probably strong enough to survive a nuclear strike but is not what you would class as light by any stretch of the imagination.

@nothwind, does a aluminium soul not interest you

It would be of some interest to me, but then it'd need to be available in > 20" too.

I really did like my Soul but at 19" it was a little too small and I prefer my hardtails to be less springy/flexy (delete according to ideological preference).

honourablegeorge - Member
I really like that.

But for that money, you might as well have Ti, I'd have thought

Ti frames are prone to cracking and soooo [i]common[/i] darling 😉

cy - Member

Carbon-wise, more than anything I'm surprised some of you think we do it credibly, given what a steel sniffer I am.

1/3d of my Cotics haven't been steel and it's the 1/3d I've kept 😉 Honestly I think you could make a good bike out of dog toffee if you wanted to.

Don't, though.

I'd like a Soul made out of chocolate.

You can fill the tubes with a nice caramel if you like, as long as it doesn't affect the weight too much.

You could change the consistancy of the filling to alter the ride characteristics - it's the future I tell ya 😀

Cy, please feel free to send me a prototype for, er, testing - email in profile, ta.

Can i just point out I asked about aluminium for the discussion, not something I'm personally interested in.

I would be interested in a big man size frame though, 20.5 inch... seems a few others also are, sort it out Cy 😉