Bear with me a little as it's stuff i don't really know much about.
The boy is racing Southern Enduro this year but we're also sticking our feet in the DH pond at times too.
We've entered both of these. But until the day before we won't know which course at FoD for example. He's ridden all the trails there (way quicker than me i must add) and is happy on his Sworks Enduro (wouldn't we all be).
But is there any real point jumping onto a DH unless we're going far more extreme ?
Rd2 is at Berwyn near Llangollen and again doesn't look incredibly tough.
I was looking at this Nukeproof Pulse for example.
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/3129848/
Which looks ace...but is clearly overkill for 99% of our riding, EVER ! but for that 1% (maybe 5%) is it massively better ?
I don't wanna go nuts and throw £5000 at a bike for limited use, but throwing £1200 in for example and getting £1000 back this time next year, well, i can live with that.
Clearly DH bikes are a tough market to sell, especially in a small, but it's a risk we can live with.
Or should we just flog the Sworks Enduro for £2500, throw in an extra £1500 and have £4000 for a better Enduro bike that will double as a DH bike, but do the job better.
The other one is just run the Sworks this year and see how he does at both DH and Enduro and when he grows out of the Sworks, (should be end of this year really) then jump shit to a big burly Enduro that'll do better.
I hate the 'unknown' and getting a test ride is clearly pretty damn hard as they're so rare.. even at somewhere like BPW they're not hiring out DH bikes and going to Scotland is excessive to test-ride a bike.
The other one is just run the Sworks this year and see how he does at both DH and Enduro and when he grows out of the Sworks, (should be end of this year really) then jump shit to a big burly Enduro that’ll do better.
I`d do this. unless he is close to winning stuff. modern trail bikes are really capable nowadays.
its not needed, they're not massively quicker than a "big" enduro bikes - however its nice to have something set up without compromises and they do tend (in my experience) to handle abuse a bit better.
Can you look at photos from previous rounds and see what the majority of riders are using?
Looking at THIS PREVIOUS RACE REPORT majority seem to be Enduro bikes.
I'm sure you know all this, but my thoughts are: If there's minimal pedalling involved, I'd imagine a proper DH bike might be 5% faster for an otherwise 'unlimited' rider. As soon as there's significant pedalling (because it's a flatish track, or it's just smooth/fast) then that gap will narrow and perhaps reverse. BUT even if there is a slight advantage in a big bike on race day, most UK-based people will probably spend more time 'training' on trail bikes. So unless you're riding the DH bike all the time, there comes a point where familiarity with the bike is more important.
Is he strong enough to manoeuvre a DH bike? THey're a lot harder work.
Can you look at photos from previous rounds and see what the majority of riders are using?
Looking at THIS PREVIOUS RACE REPORT majority seem to be Enduro bikes.
Yeah maybe there... we also did a 'Gravity DH' race last year that we're again considering this year which my lad and his mate were the only ones on non-DH bikes... another option is Pearce Cycles events....
It all depends on "how far do we wanna go with this crazy".... The answer currently is... Not sure.
He's now pushing for the top 5 at Southern Enduro, but the DH stuff not so much. Although the last 2 he had a 7th and 8th, but they were on a Blue at 417 in a non-ranking DH race so suited him more and his bike.
I had a Nukeproof Pulse. Great bike like a DH bulldozer. Used it at Farmer John's, Antur and in Alps. I'm faster on my Enduro bike and you can peddle uphill! DH bikes are nice occasional toys if you have the cash and space.
BUT even if there is a slight advantage in a big bike on race day, most UK-based people will probably spend more time ‘training’ on trail bikes. So unless you’re riding the DH bike all the time, there comes a point where familiarity with the bike is more important.
Is he strong enough to manoeuvre a DH bike? THey’re a lot harder work.
I hear you 100%. At the weekend we were at Surrey Hills and bumped into a DHer who many/some would know, he was as you say, on a trail/Enduro bike rather than a DH bike, even though doing big gaps and jumps. I 100% agree on the familiarity side of things.
Strength, he's a skinny whippet of a 13 year old... whilst he's not weak for a 13 year old, he's still not massively strong overall. But plenty of other 13s seem to ride DH bikes in DH races.
Eldest_oab was keeping up with a certain rainbow stripe jersey wearer who loves mud down a couple of The Golfie trails last year..
DH'er on full fat WC DH bike, eldest on his Enduro bike.
The ex-WC was commenting on both Eldests speed and that Enduro bikes are 99% as good on most trails these days - and that the main difference was in bomb-proofness on the day long term durability.
I love Downhill and DH bikes. It was all I rode for a long time. Even I can't justify having one anymore. There's nowhere in the UK that you NEED one unless you're seriously trying to win a proper DH race at Fort William or something.
They're heavy, sluggish and hard to handle. They're properly rapid in the right conditions but how often are you paying to do uplifts at the roughest tracks in the country? I don't even take one to the Alps anymore because my regular bike can do it all and I don't have to push it up the hill to the lift queue.
Wait until he grows up a bit and buy a Nukerproof Giga or something.
*skulks off to look at the new Canyon Sender again.....*
And eldest was top 10 in a couple of Borders MiniDH events - on an Orange 5.
why not something like a transition patrol or spire? Or a Norco range. Long travel enduro bikes that have the option to run a triple clamp fork. Then its a quick fork change.
Is your son using all his travel currently? Does he require more? Has he mentioned he feels that speed could be gained via more travel, a longer wheelbase and a slacker headtube?
I see you mention his strength and compare it to others his age.... have you arm wrestled many 13 year olds... 😛 just kidding. reading your posts it sounds like this racing is becoming more and more serious for him/you, does he have any sort of workout plan to gain strength and fitness? This could be the two seconds he is missing to top the podium, rather than buying more and more new bikes?
does he have any sort of workout plan to gain strength and fitness? This could be the two seconds he is missing to top the podium, rather than buying more and more new bikes?
The answer to that one is yes... he's working on it regularly... Not massively scientifically, but yeah he's doing a bit. I'm slightly wary with encouraging him to do more as i don't want this to take over his life and be something he sees as a chore.... I've been very much pushing him to "if you wanna race, we'll race every weekend, but if you don't wanna race and just want to play with mates, then let me know and that's what we'll do instead"
I'm not going to be pushy parent who makes him do things until he starts hating it... I'll ride whether he rides or not for the next 10 years or more... but i'll try and guide him with ideas in terms of bikes, training, life etc of course.
I don’t reckon it’s worth getting that DH bike. As he’s growing I’d run what you have this year and if he’s still loving it next year pick up a bigger enduro bike then.
Is your son using all his travel currently? Does he require more? Has he mentioned he feels that speed could be gained via more travel, a longer wheelbase and a slacker headtube?
He's exceptionally laid back in terms of riding and doesn't give a toss what he rides, he just pins the trails and jumps like a crazy.. The old fellas who were all out this weekend were laughing about how little the small ones care about anything, be it trail conditions, kit, bikes, etc... i'm sure matt_outandabout can relate to it with his lad, they just want to ride and enjoy...
I think we worry/think WAY more than they do.... which funnily has become my new mantra for riding, stop worrying about pressures/tyres, bars, pads, whatever, just ride it as hard as you can and enjoy it.
The old fellas who were all out this weekend were laughing about how little the small ones care about anything, be it trail conditions, kit, bikes, etc…
Some people would do very well to carry this attitude into later life.
The time is right when he turns round and says "jesus h christ dad, could do with a DH bike here". Prior to that just sit back and enjoy him giving zero shits and hammering the enduro bike
We had a bit of that as Caersws last year in the Gravity DH series... but i think we'll only be doing 1 race there this year.
He came down after the 1st practice run and me and another parent said "could we get down it?"
"yeah, in an ambulance" was his reply 😀
good stuff.
well with your sons easy attitude (which i very much support), i would say stick with what he has, until he comes to you and asks for a DH bike. If he is chilled about the whole race scene, isnt pushing for every last millisecond and just enjoying his riding, dont over complicate it with DH bikes.
Think less, ride more.... a good mantra! 😀
Just go race what he's got and find out. Sounds like he'll just crack on regardless.
I'd take one "nice" bike over splitting your finite budget between two "moderate" bikes.
Seems thats the spesh enduro for one more year until he grows out of it.
I think you/he have to ask yourselves some questions
Is a 160mm travel S Works Enduro capable of wining the Enduro/DH events you are entering
If the answer is no then he needs another or different bike.
If the answer is yes then what do we need to do for achieve that and work on it. What's his strengths and weaknesses and work on them. If the bike is set up right then its working on the weaknesses where you will find the extra seconds you are looking for. However its a tough field out there and most of any age, gender or ability are looking for the same thing. Quite a few give up.
Link is to Abigales first Enduro race back in 2015, its the U18 men
Have a look and see how many are still competing on a regular basis, I think it tells a story
The ones still at it are probably more to the enjoyment factor.
Unless you're swimming in a pool of cash every evening before opening up your triple door garage/bike cave to admire the space that needs taking up by another bike, I wouldn't bother. I'm just going to echo the opinion that a burly enduro bike to eventually replace that fine machine he's currently using will be the most sensible option (we're going to be doing exactly that with our 13yr old daughter later this year)
This is the upside of living in a country where U15's aren't allowed to use triple clamp forks in competition. N+1-dh is an equation I'm quite happy to comply with. Vive la France !
Rune with Zebs that'll do him/you/me 😉
I agree with many of the responses that it doesn't sound like your son 'needs' a dh bike yet. I've been lucky enough to have a DH bike in my fleet for most of the last 15 years. I've had the DH-V-Enduro bike discussion with many riders, including a well respected instructor and a UK Masters BDS winner. On the less extreme tracks, (eg: Aston Hill, FOD) the general consensus was a DH bike was negligibly faster, infact to get my best DH race result, I chose my enduro bike over my DH bike. However the general consensus was riding a DH bike at 'slightly above' enduro pace was much further inside the safety net than hammering an enduro bike (where you're close to a chaos crash). The common reason I've found and experienced, was a DH bike allows you to ride that bit faster but with a better safety margin to manage a slide/mistake. That starts to matter if, you're a serious racer who doesn't want time off injured, or any other normal human who doesn't want to crash hard! A big mistake on a DH bike often only looses you time, on an enduro bike, you're on the floor.
One big factor is there are alot of (used) dh bikes out there with bottom end components, (especially shocks/forks). I would say a tricked out enduro bike with top end suspension will perform better than a 'mid/low' end DH bike. So maybe the time to get a DH bike is when you can justify/afford higher end. PS: a good approach is buy a used low end bike, and upgrade the fork cartridge and fit a new shock...
stop over thinking things. you've never done one but you're talking about changing bikes already? I started on a hardtail, then patriot. Even my sunday etc was probably shorter than that spesh.
He'll be learning so much that the bike won't be the thing that's holding him up. Once he's competitive then maybe think about a dh rig if you do nationals etc.
If you want to make a helpful change then the key thing will be swapping the tyres for dh ones. for the race. Have a set of mud tyres on stand by too.
My mate is having the same battle with his similar aged lad who has been bitten by the DH race bug. He's only recently got a YT Capra Shred which to be honest is pretty much a mini DH/Bike Park bike - 180mm with coil & 38s and a few months later is lusting after a proper DH bike. Issue is that almost all the riding he does in the local area / parks doesn't warrant a DH bike and his current bike is hardly going to be holding him back meaning that if he gets a DH bike he'll then just be wanting to borrow Dads bike all the time as its actually usable outside of an uplift centre (which dad has only just reclaimed with the arrival of the YT). He's just raced Gawton though (a step up from Southern Enduro trails), and seeing the rippers on megabucks DH bikes doesn't help the feeling of jealousy / they're faster because of their bikes.
Back in the day my only bike used to be a DH bike, I look at what I have today (Bronson) wishing I'd had it 15-20 years ago having spent most of my time pedalling a huge lump of a bike round 'hills' of the SE and only really getting to use it properly at Aston Hill and the occasional trip to Wales. I think the lack of versatility probably sucked the enjoyment out of riding for me and I left the sport for a few years.
Couple of other things;
That Nukerpoof - bottom end shock and forks and Guide brakes, seems a bit of a false economy when suspension set up and brakes are critical factors on a DH bike (read some Paul Aston articles for mega geek stuff on this)
That pro (Mr Wilkins I presume given your vid on the other thread) - isn't a DH rider (and never has been, is a dirt jumper turned brand ambassador) has stated several times via podcast that he's got no use for a DH bike, doesn't own one, and his 150/150 bike is his ideal do it all for pretty much all the riding he does. I don't see any of the SH based pros on DH bike outside of proper DH runs / races.
https://www.rootsandrain.com/event3117/2015-apr-26-borderline-pmba-enduro-2-grizedale-forest/results/#hu18m
/blockquote>
I was more shocked that she ended up only 2 places back from Sam Hill!!
We didn't race Gawton as it was full and we were on the waiting list. He has raced there and did well.
The particular DH bike we can buy as well as the Enduro if needed, it's not an either or... But i accept it's not the greatest DHer.
So we'll put the idea to bed and about Xmas this year we'll have a "what enduro for the lad" type thread.
Thanks all for then input.
This is the upside of living in a country where U15’s aren’t allowed to use triple clamp forks in competition.
I'm intrigued. Any idea why that is?
My mate is having the same battle with his similar aged lad
My understanding is that is the opposite battle weeksy is having. Weeksyjnr is quite happy with riding what he has. I think it's the OP that wants to spend some money!
you’ve never done one but you’re talking about changing bikes already?
Who's never done one? He's raced 5 different DH races at 4 different places.
The time is right when he turns round and says “jesus h christ dad, could do with a DH bike here”. Prior to that just sit back and enjoy him giving zero shits and hammering the enduro bike
This. I used to do DH races (but not competitively) on a hardtail which whilst compromised will still get you down the hill, skills count for a lot more.
I’m intrigued. Any idea why that is?
@thegeneralist I'm not entirely sure, but I believe it's both to encourage skills development and prevent smaller kids from having heavy front end related accidents. Whatever reason, it doesn't seem to do any harm to the French kids' progression.
I'd take the approach of using the DH days as focussed time based training for the Enduro races if thats where his focus is. Ignore the actual results, but developing a higher comfort zone to descending at speed against the clock.
I agree that a used low budget DH bike will not make any meaningful difference, plus I'd think your math will be off in that it'll be 1200 plus a new wheelset, plus some significant suspension work etc etc.
What ever the theoretical loss on buying a DH bike for DH only events would be, I would apply to some structured strength/core conditioning (bodyweight based rather than lifting) and/or some more focussed skills sessions.
core strength, confidence and bike skills at that age will almost always trump a top end equipment and you are always going to be competing against kids whos parents have bigger equipment budgets.
We are lucky here in Squamish/Whistler that we have several youth development coaching programs with international success stories (although to be fair it is more often the parents with the bigger wallets putting their kids through these programs)
Lol indeed it doesn't. The French are who everyone looks up to at the moment for sure.
and/or some more focussed skills sessions.
He's got skills session this weekend, then a 1:1 day with Katy curd in 3-4 weeks too. We're not shy at putting in the time.
I know someone with a 2016 ns fuzz 1 medium gathering dust if it would be of any interest?
Things I spend money on before even considering a DH bike:
-Tyres*
-Brakes
-Supension service/tuning
-Training day with a coach
-More practice
*For DH only days, DH tyres will make a big difference, Maxxgrip/Ultrasoft up front and something harder on the back, both with proper casings.
Tyres*
-Brakes
-Supension service/tuning
-Training day with a coach
-More practice
1. Tyres I guess we could do a bit better on. Currently got a Shorty on the front and a DHF on the back.
2. Suspension serviced 3 weeks ago
3. I'll keep saying it, he had 4 sessions with coach last year and has 3 in the next 5 weeks.
4. We practice every weekend, different locations, terrain. He goes to school, it's dark after school, we can't ride more than we do.
I'm not sure things like casings make a massive difference as he's 50kg, but sure, link me up to some rubber and I'll see.
Its more the compound, Maxxgrip up front / Maxxterra out back in DD casing, lower pressures, more grip, however you have to play the game of not destroying wheels and tyres.
What tyres has he ridden and what has he liked? Assegai is a great tyre but these things are pretty personal.
Compounds are the obvious help for grip, but sturdier casings also help damp the tyre for an even more planted feel
He's ridden tonnes, he doesn't seem to care much. He's never actually complained about any, I've bought that Assegai above and it'll be kept as his race front and removed between races for whatever we have lying about for riding days.
Well, if I can be arsed.
Not unless you’re going to buy a good one and he’s going to use it a lot. It’s a bit like all the people who have a fully tricked out to of the range trail/enduro bike that they ride all year around, but have/buy a semi-crapped out, mid-range DH bike to take to the Alps once a year which although it has longer travel, is running a much more basic suspension setup and components.
Keep using what he has for now and when the time comes to upgrade (if it comes) get a decent one. DH bikes are great, but there’s no point in halfarsing it as ths5 would be a waste of money.
Strength and fitness is what he (and you and me and most of us on here) most likely needs to get faster. That and some coaching (both less cool than a shiny bike though 😁).
Just let him have fun like you’re doing now and if he wants to get better and do more in the future then go for it. For now it looks like he’s enjoying himself which is the main thing.
For now it looks like he’s enjoying himself which is the main thing
100%, we're both enjoying it massively at the moment. We've ridden loads lately and loads of places/trails we've not been before. The next few months are crazy with events, coaching and riding plans, so there's really no rush on any decisions, but as above, i think the DH bike can go very much on the back burner/binned.
Regarding "if we'll upgrade", don't get me wrong, both me and him love his Sworks, it's absolutely brilliant and he's very much at home on it... but i'd say by the end of this year with the rate he's growing, it'll simply be too small for him. It will be a sad day for both of us when it goes as we've had some really special moments on the Sworks, but i can't stop him growing and i can't make the bike bigger than it actually is 😀
The debate will rage in my mind now over the coming year as to what to replace it with though. But that's a whole other thread of insanity right there.
It seems you've already decided what route to take. But just a quick heads up, you can hire a full downhill bike at Antur Stiniog if he wants to try one. They use the Saracen Myst Pro sizes small through to large.
But just a quick heads up, you can hire a full downhill bike at Antur Stiniog if he wants to try one.
i'm 90% decided yes... but he's currently got 7 Enduro races booked for this year and 5 DH races booked too, so a lot of it may eventually come down to which route he wants to take and whether he accepts the consequences of that either way, either a DH bike he can't trail on, or an enduro bike he can't DH quite as well on. History and current preference say his longer term wishes currently are to race Enduro, be that at Southern Enduro, PMBA or even EWS longer term, i don't know. As we know with kids, he could easily end up turning to chess next week and never sitting on a bike again 😀 But if that happens, it does mean i get to ride his new Santa Cruz/Sworks/Whatever instead, so it's a win win for me 🙂
We've not been to Antur yet and whilst it's somewhere i'd like to take him, fitting it in is getting tough currently, but thanks for the info, it does give us an option.
Have you bought a caravan yet weeksy? Sounds like dad_taxi is your lot for the next few years... 😃
Have you bought a caravan yet weeksy? Sounds like dad_taxi is your lot for the next few years
I'm happy being Taxi as it also means i generally get to ride the same places with him, apart from the DH stuff anyway. Enduro meetings i'll be joining in and riding for sure. Some of the easier non-cat type DH races i'll jump on with him. So not only is he getting to live his dream, but so am i 🙂
I'm in a very fortunate position that both mine and his interests cross perfectly at the moment and i can promise you i'm enjoying it as much as he is...
Well, apart from hoovering out the car twice a week 😀
I don't see the caravan happening, but in 18 months or so if the finances come back to normality a bit i wouldn't be shocked if a van arrives. I've resisted it up to now and it's not been a massive issue, but i can sure see the appeal of one.
👍
Having a van is amazing especially if you're racing. Much more useful than a DH Bike.
Having a van is amazing especially if you’re racing. Much more useful than a DH Bike.
Well yes but i can't buy a van for £1200 lol. Vans are great but not really day-to-day for me... So ideally it'd be a 2nd vehicle. I debated one recently when i bought a new (old) car, but the current prices meant that anything in my budget i'd set was an absolute pile of shite or moon and back miles. Sometimes both.
I think for a decent van you'd hope will be reliable you're in the £15k+ bracket and even then based upon mates experiences, i'm not sure 'reliable' and vans go together that well.
I'm in the same boat. Desperate for a van for I'm not buying anything at current prices. The problem is when was the last time you saw prices come down after a boom? I'm not sure they'll ever be 'normal' again.
what does Mrs Weeksy do when all this riding is going on?!
what does Mrs Weeksy do when all this riding is going on?!
There's a question mate... a whole can of worms there, but she's doing OK with it all currently... I do try and encourage her to come join in on the days i'm not riding, but it's not top of her list.
Weeksy for father of the year!
Sound advice from most in this thread. Couple of things I’d add though. 13 is too young to be thinking about weight training. Body is still growing, just let the riding do the work.
As for tyres, get another of the same tread/size but in a more durable compound for his everyday riding. No point going into a race weekend on a tyre he doesn’t know. That way, when he swaps to grippy race version it’ll feel even better. At the speed maxxgrip wears you will definitely be arsed swapping it over between races.
Race organisers are always on the look out for Marshalls 😉
Ive done quite a few over the years and enjoyed it
Spend your money on reducing unsprung weight - carbon rims, lower spoke count wheels, smaller DH cassette, short cage mech. If the frame is external gear cable keep a spare 'DH' drivetrain ready - mech cable and shifter and either a spare carbon set of wheels or change the cassette for racing along with a chain for each configuration. You can then quickly change it between DH mode and Enduro.
Then Really sort the suspension on the Spesh - keep the fork chassis but swop the internals to Avalanche or equivalent, same with the shock or upgrade it. Start timing and repeat riding sections or tracks whilst twidling suspension settings - work on your lad knowing the difference between the adjustments and what they doing to the bike and how it tracks/works.
When he outgrows the bike - transfer the fork/shock to a new frame and carry on.
Only when he's destroying wheels/harshly blowing through travel/ being bucked off an enduro bike does he then need a DH bike.
Really sort the suspension on the Spesh – keep the fork chassis but swop the internals to Avalanche or equivalent, same with the shock or upgrade it. Start timing and repeat riding sections or tracks whilst twidling suspension settings – work on your lad knowing the difference between the adjustments and what they doing to the bike and how it tracks/works.
When he outgrows the bike – transfer the fork/shock to a new frame and carry on.
First, excellent post.... Just to pick up on one part...
The suspension.. that's VERY much a point of internal contention for me with him. THe little sod gives me NOTHING and i really do mean NOTHING to go on with suspension. We have what's a fairly basic setup on the bike in terms of fork and shock, both are recently serviced and setup by Sprung suspension, but he notices NOTHING on the bike.. I change X, nothing, i change Y, nothing... he just rides it... Tyres, bars, levers, suspension, pressures... nothing at all.
In some ways this is brilliant, but in some ways it's frustrating too.
I'd happily throw £400 at a CC DB ILair or coil to chuck in the bike, or a DPX2, (which i've done and he didn't notice/care) but i sit there and think "whats the point he doesn't even notice"
I do 100% hear your above... but is a bit of a problem we're having 😀
I’d happily throw £400 at a CC DB ILair or coil
Doesn't that Enduro side load the shock a whole load? In which case I'd avoid CC like the plague.
Some riders have an ability to just crack on whilst not feeling and/or caring about differences/changes. I wouldn't bother working hard on it. Get a middle of the road setup and let him smash on - its a far more relaxing way to live than thinking about the setup of each and every component on the bike.
I also would not go changing things like tyres expect for the same again when worn out. If he does suddenly have an issue then it could be down to you changing his setup for him rather than anything he's done. Like for like would be a better approach imo (in order words, cancel that Assegai, stick with the DHF that is working fine right now).
Then Really sort the suspension on the Spesh – keep the fork chassis but swop the internals to Avalanche or equivalent, same with the shock or upgrade it. Start timing and repeat riding sections or tracks whilst twidling suspension settings – work on your lad knowing the difference between the adjustments and what they doing to the bike and how it tracks/works.
When he outgrows the bike – transfer the fork/shock to a new frame and carry on.
I disagree with most of this. The likes of Avalanche don't give you a big range of adjustment, they rely on up front info and the adjusters just fine tune that. Currently he's showing little interest, so handing over a setup with multiple air chambers, LSC, HSC, HBO, HSR, LSR and god knows what else (at each end) isn't going to do anyone any favours. Especially Weeksy, who'll have a stroke when he buys and adjusts it all only to get a shrug and "feels just the same" from the teenager 😉
How fit is he? Rather than buying a DH bike, why not buy a turbo trainer setup? Obviously getting him to use it might be another thing, but if it improves his fitness then it should improve his race results which may spur him on. Ideal for use over winter.
I'd echo what everyone else has said. Burly enduro when the time is right.
I think you are a fantastic dad for all the stuff you put on here btw. You are overthinking it, but it's great that you are. Top dadding!
but he notices NOTHING on the bike
there's a whole new load of frustration to be found with someone who can change pads, bleed brakes, replace a whole drivetrain, change tubeless tyres etc.; but just doesnt ever think to do so, and rides it until it barely shifts and grinds metal on metal with tyres that are near slick in the centre.
Doesn’t that Enduro side load the shock a whole load? In which case I’d avoid CC like the plague.
Due to his Ohlins failing and being unrepairable we're now running a Bikeyoke 210*55 setup instead of the Specialized weird square end jobbie... So we can run standard 210*55 shocks on the bike.
However we've only got a fairly basic Rockshox Deluxe R installed currently as that's what we bought at the time. He's tried a DHX2 but wasn't keen/bothered, also a Deluxe RL which he thought was the same as his R model.
How fit is he?
Truth to that statement is... Depends on his mindset on a given day. He has his days where he's a bloody beast and climbs/trails like a monster.... but he has his days where he does 10 mins and wants to bail, but that's the way of been a growing young teenager i think.
You are overthinking it,
Maybe to an extent yes, but that's kinda who I am and what i do, i want to give him the best chance possible to be the best he can be, within the obvious limitations of 'real world'. I can't take him to Glentress every weekend as time and life won't allow that, but i can do little things to make either his bike or him the best he can be within the constraints we have.
why not buy a turbo trainer setup?
As you'd expect, we have one of those already but it doesn't get used as much as it maybe ought to i'll admit.
Especially Weeksy, who’ll have a stroke when he buys and adjusts it all only to get a shrug and “feels just the same” from the teenager
Mostly i just laugh when he says it. Because in honesty, what else can you do when someone is disappearing away from you like you've never ridden a bike before and just says "can't tell any difference" but then still buggers off. Then launches himself over gap jumps without much thought.
The funny thing is, he's far from alone. We've got a core group of riders who are his mates, who ride and race together... they're very similar, they just ride what they're put on top of and nail it... Watching them all, is hysterical.
I also would not go changing things like tyres expect for the same again when worn out. If he does suddenly have an issue then it could be down to you changing his setup for him rather than anything he’s done. Like for like would be a better approach imo (in order words, cancel that Assegai, stick with the DHF that is working fine right now).
Right or wrongly we're running the DHF on the back and the Shorty on the front. Looking at it it's 3C DH Maxxgrip. The DHF is Maxxis Minion DHF Exo TR. Both are fairly new and not particularly worn at this stage. But i can't see an Assegai being that much of a completely different tyre ?
But this may be starting to get off topic and weird now... I was thinking about 417 Flyup which is in 2 weekends time doing some testing with completely different rubber of a Trail Boss on the front and something like a Specialized Ground Control on the back to give lighter weight and better rolling resistance, obviously at the expense of some grip, but i don't know if he'll care about the grip, but may actually benefit from the rolling speed and weight..
Only the really longest, roughest or steepest tracks in the country really require a DH bike for a chance of winning. Think fort william for length/roughness, steep stuff at llangollen etc.
Having said that, I've had a few over the years and it really encouraged me to hit stuff harder, send bigger things than I ever had before, and they do open up new lines you might not have considered before. Then you can take the shorter bike and give it a go on that. So I found it good for progression, and tbh they are pretty fun. Get a cheap one and sell it in a year or two for nearly the same amount, you haven't really got anything to lose. You can learn a lot from riding different bikes
I disagree with most of this. The likes of Avalanche don’t give you a big range of adjustment, they rely on up front info and the adjusters just fine tune that. Currently he’s showing little interest, so handing over a setup with multiple air chambers, LSC, HSC, HBO, HSR, LSR and god knows what else (at each end) isn’t going to do anyone any favours. Especially Weeksy, who’ll have a stroke when he buys and adjusts it all only to get a shrug and “feels just the same” from the teenager
Then weeksy will have to accept that his lad wont progress much further () as his lads natural talents arent good enough on their own or he'd be dominating on a BSO. Speaking with Criag@Avy about his lads weight and riding style and then working with his lad to dial in the settings more than likely would yield an improvement.
or just let him have fun riding at his current level with his mates - he'll discover booze/members of the opposite (or same) sex at some point and the riding will take a different direction again!
Then weeksy will have to accept that his lad wont progress much further
That's not an issue. I'm not hung up on the results and neither is he... He goes well both in Enduro and DH stuff, but he's not going to dominate and win titles unless something dramatic changes. He'll be a decent top end racer at where we're pitching him, but we honestly don't do it purely for that, we do it for the days out, the nights away at the "Sleepy Moon" and the experiences at different places. One of our favourites last year was Haibike at Machynlleth, because of meeting a fellow forumite, but just the whole experience of ice-cream by the seaside the day before, random pubs for tea and drinks and waking up in a bit of Wales we've never seen. Doing well in the results is just a bonus, but obviously there's a part of both of us that wants to do well. Neither of us have an expectaion of 'making it' as a racer, be that a DH or Enduro racer.... we just play and have fun.
Trail Boss on the front
That’s just mean u less you want to teach him to ignore his front brake. Basically a rear only, fair weather, trail tyre in my book.
Forgot it was a Shorty up front. Shorty - DHF through the winter and DHF - DHF in summer (plus wheels setup with muds ready to go) would be a safe combo. Casings and compound to suit the race. Assegai might be just fine, but I can’t see the point in changing?
Aye trail boss on the front? Eeek. Rear it’s ok.
That’s just mean u less you want to teach him to ignore his front brake
i'm just kind of randomly thinking out loud... by all means tell me an idea is stupid....
The Assegai, in my defence i didn't know the Shorty was Maxxgrip and DH compound until i just checked...
Don't forget... he's not the only one learning here 🙂 i am too. Just in a different way.
That’s not an issue. I’m not hung up on the results and neither is he… He goes well both in Enduro and DH stuff, but he’s not going to dominate and win titles unless something dramatic changes. He’ll be a decent top end racer at where we’re pitching him, but we honestly don’t do it purely for that, we do it for the days out, the nights away at the “Sleepy Moon” and the experiences at different places. One of our favourites last year was Haibike at Machynlleth, because of meeting a fellow forumite, but just the whole experience of ice-cream by the seaside the day before, random pubs for tea and drinks and waking up in a bit of Wales we’ve never seen. Doing well in the results is just a bonus, but obviously there’s a part of both of us that wants to do well. Neither of us have an expectaion of ‘making it’ as a racer, be that a DH or Enduro racer…. we just play and have fun.
that gets a double thumbs up from me and a nomination of 'dad of the year' award for you.
Trailboss on the front - not for me - that’s a summer rear tyre in my mind. Or winter on a hardpack trail centre trail.
417 on your existing selection of tyres I’d go dhf on the front. If it’s a blue then possibly Trailboss on the back but something like a dissector would be better.
Dhr2 is my favourite back tyre other than during the summer. Just does everything well.
Thanks all for the discussions on this one. I've settled now on the 'wait and see' and had a play with some tyre combos.
So for 417 he'll have 2 sets of tyres
Front : Shorty 2.5 in DH/Maxxgrip
Rear : DHF 2.4 in 3C Maxterra
Front : Assegai 2.5 in DD/Maxxgrip
Rear : Completely unknown currently. I've got a choice of 4-5 from a Trail Boss high grip(new) to new Spec Ground Control and potentially a couple of part worns arriving this weekend.
Wheelset 2 are as much a spare set of wheels just in case something breaks/has issues on race day really. Over the past year i've usually changed the spring in the coil on my G170 to a 300 the day before and i take that for him (or the other 2 teens who race with us) on the DH days just in case, but we've never actually needed it. But taking the spare wheels will mean we have contingency that means he'd still get to race on his own bike.
Funnily enough, in all of this, i've completely neglected to even think or consider what rubber i have on the G-170 and had the thought of stealing the new Assegai that turns up today/tomorrow but then decided that's me being a bit selfish so moved on from that. So i've got a Vigilante on the front and a Butcher on the rear... i'm happy enough, but i do like a bit of experimentation at times. I struggle to find anything i like more on the front than the Vigilante though.
In a random turn of events i was thinking about lobbing this at the Sworks for trying out though.
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/3118818/
I know it's a 210*60 and he runs a 210*55 but i can't see any reason for clearances that the 60 stroke wouldn't work OK. But then we'd end up in a bit of a suspension setup quandry with 400 different settings lol.
I did consider a Bomber CR from TFT or J-tech but noticed on J-tech site that Fox will no longer warranty a Bomber if used on a bike with a Yoke setup. I then confirmed this via email, which really shocked me... But it's their ball-game and i can't change their mind so didn't buy the better shock after all.
Specialized enduros with the yoke linkage have been known to eat coil shocks. Especially ones with smaller diameter pistons like Fox.
Ibis Ripmos are similar and they’ll only suggest certain coil shock manufacturers who run chunky pistons. They go with DVO Jade X coils as standard as they run a 14mm piston rather than the 9mm on Fox DHX shocks.
Effectively the length of the shock eye to eye is extended by the yoke which puts more pressure on the shock.
Also that one has the same eye to eye so will be fine at full extension but will compress further with the longer stroke - you’d have to check at full compression that the back wheel didn’t hit the frame / nothing else was going to have a problem.
I don’t know enough about the db coil il to comment but perhaps you can get an external stroke spacer to reduce it. You can on a Fox DHX2 - they just bolt onto the shock body. And it seems Rockshox deluxe coils can use an external spacer for the same reason.
Racing on the gnarlier / rootier tracks a coil (setup correctly) would probably find some more rear grip though if you find one that’s ok on the bike / can get a setup right with lack of feedback from your lad 🤷♂️
Based upon what i've seen when i remove the shock to change/service etc, i don't think it would be an issue. It's certainly getting a little bit of thought in terms of options/plans though.
MAybe i'm just bored and up a bit early this morning 😀