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Bear with me a little as it's stuff i don't really know much about.
The boy is racing Southern Enduro this year but we're also sticking our feet in the DH pond at times too.
We've entered both of these. But until the day before we won't know which course at FoD for example. He's ridden all the trails there (way quicker than me i must add) and is happy on his Sworks Enduro (wouldn't we all be).
But is there any real point jumping onto a DH unless we're going far more extreme ?
Rd2 is at Berwyn near Llangollen and again doesn't look incredibly tough.
I was looking at this Nukeproof Pulse for example.
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/3129848/
Which looks ace...but is clearly overkill for 99% of our riding, EVER ! but for that 1% (maybe 5%) is it massively better ?
I don't wanna go nuts and throw £5000 at a bike for limited use, but throwing £1200 in for example and getting £1000 back this time next year, well, i can live with that.
Clearly DH bikes are a tough market to sell, especially in a small, but it's a risk we can live with.
Or should we just flog the Sworks Enduro for £2500, throw in an extra £1500 and have £4000 for a better Enduro bike that will double as a DH bike, but do the job better.
The other one is just run the Sworks this year and see how he does at both DH and Enduro and when he grows out of the Sworks, (should be end of this year really) then jump shit to a big burly Enduro that'll do better.
I hate the 'unknown' and getting a test ride is clearly pretty damn hard as they're so rare.. even at somewhere like BPW they're not hiring out DH bikes and going to Scotland is excessive to test-ride a bike.
The other one is just run the Sworks this year and see how he does at both DH and Enduro and when he grows out of the Sworks, (should be end of this year really) then jump shit to a big burly Enduro that’ll do better.
I`d do this. unless he is close to winning stuff. modern trail bikes are really capable nowadays.
its not needed, they're not massively quicker than a "big" enduro bikes - however its nice to have something set up without compromises and they do tend (in my experience) to handle abuse a bit better.
Can you look at photos from previous rounds and see what the majority of riders are using?
Looking at THIS PREVIOUS RACE REPORT majority seem to be Enduro bikes.
I'm sure you know all this, but my thoughts are: If there's minimal pedalling involved, I'd imagine a proper DH bike might be 5% faster for an otherwise 'unlimited' rider. As soon as there's significant pedalling (because it's a flatish track, or it's just smooth/fast) then that gap will narrow and perhaps reverse. BUT even if there is a slight advantage in a big bike on race day, most UK-based people will probably spend more time 'training' on trail bikes. So unless you're riding the DH bike all the time, there comes a point where familiarity with the bike is more important.
Is he strong enough to manoeuvre a DH bike? THey're a lot harder work.
Can you look at photos from previous rounds and see what the majority of riders are using?
Looking at THIS PREVIOUS RACE REPORT majority seem to be Enduro bikes.
Yeah maybe there... we also did a 'Gravity DH' race last year that we're again considering this year which my lad and his mate were the only ones on non-DH bikes... another option is Pearce Cycles events....
It all depends on "how far do we wanna go with this crazy".... The answer currently is... Not sure.
He's now pushing for the top 5 at Southern Enduro, but the DH stuff not so much. Although the last 2 he had a 7th and 8th, but they were on a Blue at 417 in a non-ranking DH race so suited him more and his bike.
I had a Nukeproof Pulse. Great bike like a DH bulldozer. Used it at Farmer John's, Antur and in Alps. I'm faster on my Enduro bike and you can peddle uphill! DH bikes are nice occasional toys if you have the cash and space.
BUT even if there is a slight advantage in a big bike on race day, most UK-based people will probably spend more time ‘training’ on trail bikes. So unless you’re riding the DH bike all the time, there comes a point where familiarity with the bike is more important.
Is he strong enough to manoeuvre a DH bike? THey’re a lot harder work.
I hear you 100%. At the weekend we were at Surrey Hills and bumped into a DHer who many/some would know, he was as you say, on a trail/Enduro bike rather than a DH bike, even though doing big gaps and jumps. I 100% agree on the familiarity side of things.
Strength, he's a skinny whippet of a 13 year old... whilst he's not weak for a 13 year old, he's still not massively strong overall. But plenty of other 13s seem to ride DH bikes in DH races.
Eldest_oab was keeping up with a certain rainbow stripe jersey wearer who loves mud down a couple of The Golfie trails last year..
DH'er on full fat WC DH bike, eldest on his Enduro bike.
The ex-WC was commenting on both Eldests speed and that Enduro bikes are 99% as good on most trails these days - and that the main difference was in bomb-proofness on the day long term durability.
I love Downhill and DH bikes. It was all I rode for a long time. Even I can't justify having one anymore. There's nowhere in the UK that you NEED one unless you're seriously trying to win a proper DH race at Fort William or something.
They're heavy, sluggish and hard to handle. They're properly rapid in the right conditions but how often are you paying to do uplifts at the roughest tracks in the country? I don't even take one to the Alps anymore because my regular bike can do it all and I don't have to push it up the hill to the lift queue.
Wait until he grows up a bit and buy a Nukerproof Giga or something.
*skulks off to look at the new Canyon Sender again.....*
And eldest was top 10 in a couple of Borders MiniDH events - on an Orange 5.
why not something like a transition patrol or spire? Or a Norco range. Long travel enduro bikes that have the option to run a triple clamp fork. Then its a quick fork change.
Is your son using all his travel currently? Does he require more? Has he mentioned he feels that speed could be gained via more travel, a longer wheelbase and a slacker headtube?
I see you mention his strength and compare it to others his age.... have you arm wrestled many 13 year olds... 😛 just kidding. reading your posts it sounds like this racing is becoming more and more serious for him/you, does he have any sort of workout plan to gain strength and fitness? This could be the two seconds he is missing to top the podium, rather than buying more and more new bikes?
does he have any sort of workout plan to gain strength and fitness? This could be the two seconds he is missing to top the podium, rather than buying more and more new bikes?
The answer to that one is yes... he's working on it regularly... Not massively scientifically, but yeah he's doing a bit. I'm slightly wary with encouraging him to do more as i don't want this to take over his life and be something he sees as a chore.... I've been very much pushing him to "if you wanna race, we'll race every weekend, but if you don't wanna race and just want to play with mates, then let me know and that's what we'll do instead"
I'm not going to be pushy parent who makes him do things until he starts hating it... I'll ride whether he rides or not for the next 10 years or more... but i'll try and guide him with ideas in terms of bikes, training, life etc of course.
I don’t reckon it’s worth getting that DH bike. As he’s growing I’d run what you have this year and if he’s still loving it next year pick up a bigger enduro bike then.
Is your son using all his travel currently? Does he require more? Has he mentioned he feels that speed could be gained via more travel, a longer wheelbase and a slacker headtube?
He's exceptionally laid back in terms of riding and doesn't give a toss what he rides, he just pins the trails and jumps like a crazy.. The old fellas who were all out this weekend were laughing about how little the small ones care about anything, be it trail conditions, kit, bikes, etc... i'm sure matt_outandabout can relate to it with his lad, they just want to ride and enjoy...
I think we worry/think WAY more than they do.... which funnily has become my new mantra for riding, stop worrying about pressures/tyres, bars, pads, whatever, just ride it as hard as you can and enjoy it.
The old fellas who were all out this weekend were laughing about how little the small ones care about anything, be it trail conditions, kit, bikes, etc…
Some people would do very well to carry this attitude into later life.
The time is right when he turns round and says "jesus h christ dad, could do with a DH bike here". Prior to that just sit back and enjoy him giving zero shits and hammering the enduro bike
We had a bit of that as Caersws last year in the Gravity DH series... but i think we'll only be doing 1 race there this year.
He came down after the 1st practice run and me and another parent said "could we get down it?"
"yeah, in an ambulance" was his reply 😀
good stuff.
well with your sons easy attitude (which i very much support), i would say stick with what he has, until he comes to you and asks for a DH bike. If he is chilled about the whole race scene, isnt pushing for every last millisecond and just enjoying his riding, dont over complicate it with DH bikes.
Think less, ride more.... a good mantra! 😀
Just go race what he's got and find out. Sounds like he'll just crack on regardless.
I'd take one "nice" bike over splitting your finite budget between two "moderate" bikes.
Seems thats the spesh enduro for one more year until he grows out of it.
I think you/he have to ask yourselves some questions
Is a 160mm travel S Works Enduro capable of wining the Enduro/DH events you are entering
If the answer is no then he needs another or different bike.
If the answer is yes then what do we need to do for achieve that and work on it. What's his strengths and weaknesses and work on them. If the bike is set up right then its working on the weaknesses where you will find the extra seconds you are looking for. However its a tough field out there and most of any age, gender or ability are looking for the same thing. Quite a few give up.
Link is to Abigales first Enduro race back in 2015, its the U18 men
Have a look and see how many are still competing on a regular basis, I think it tells a story
The ones still at it are probably more to the enjoyment factor.
Unless you're swimming in a pool of cash every evening before opening up your triple door garage/bike cave to admire the space that needs taking up by another bike, I wouldn't bother. I'm just going to echo the opinion that a burly enduro bike to eventually replace that fine machine he's currently using will be the most sensible option (we're going to be doing exactly that with our 13yr old daughter later this year)
This is the upside of living in a country where U15's aren't allowed to use triple clamp forks in competition. N+1-dh is an equation I'm quite happy to comply with. Vive la France !
Rune with Zebs that'll do him/you/me 😉
I agree with many of the responses that it doesn't sound like your son 'needs' a dh bike yet. I've been lucky enough to have a DH bike in my fleet for most of the last 15 years. I've had the DH-V-Enduro bike discussion with many riders, including a well respected instructor and a UK Masters BDS winner. On the less extreme tracks, (eg: Aston Hill, FOD) the general consensus was a DH bike was negligibly faster, infact to get my best DH race result, I chose my enduro bike over my DH bike. However the general consensus was riding a DH bike at 'slightly above' enduro pace was much further inside the safety net than hammering an enduro bike (where you're close to a chaos crash). The common reason I've found and experienced, was a DH bike allows you to ride that bit faster but with a better safety margin to manage a slide/mistake. That starts to matter if, you're a serious racer who doesn't want time off injured, or any other normal human who doesn't want to crash hard! A big mistake on a DH bike often only looses you time, on an enduro bike, you're on the floor.
One big factor is there are alot of (used) dh bikes out there with bottom end components, (especially shocks/forks). I would say a tricked out enduro bike with top end suspension will perform better than a 'mid/low' end DH bike. So maybe the time to get a DH bike is when you can justify/afford higher end. PS: a good approach is buy a used low end bike, and upgrade the fork cartridge and fit a new shock...
stop over thinking things. you've never done one but you're talking about changing bikes already? I started on a hardtail, then patriot. Even my sunday etc was probably shorter than that spesh.
He'll be learning so much that the bike won't be the thing that's holding him up. Once he's competitive then maybe think about a dh rig if you do nationals etc.
If you want to make a helpful change then the key thing will be swapping the tyres for dh ones. for the race. Have a set of mud tyres on stand by too.
My mate is having the same battle with his similar aged lad who has been bitten by the DH race bug. He's only recently got a YT Capra Shred which to be honest is pretty much a mini DH/Bike Park bike - 180mm with coil & 38s and a few months later is lusting after a proper DH bike. Issue is that almost all the riding he does in the local area / parks doesn't warrant a DH bike and his current bike is hardly going to be holding him back meaning that if he gets a DH bike he'll then just be wanting to borrow Dads bike all the time as its actually usable outside of an uplift centre (which dad has only just reclaimed with the arrival of the YT). He's just raced Gawton though (a step up from Southern Enduro trails), and seeing the rippers on megabucks DH bikes doesn't help the feeling of jealousy / they're faster because of their bikes.
Back in the day my only bike used to be a DH bike, I look at what I have today (Bronson) wishing I'd had it 15-20 years ago having spent most of my time pedalling a huge lump of a bike round 'hills' of the SE and only really getting to use it properly at Aston Hill and the occasional trip to Wales. I think the lack of versatility probably sucked the enjoyment out of riding for me and I left the sport for a few years.
Couple of other things;
That Nukerpoof - bottom end shock and forks and Guide brakes, seems a bit of a false economy when suspension set up and brakes are critical factors on a DH bike (read some Paul Aston articles for mega geek stuff on this)
That pro (Mr Wilkins I presume given your vid on the other thread) - isn't a DH rider (and never has been, is a dirt jumper turned brand ambassador) has stated several times via podcast that he's got no use for a DH bike, doesn't own one, and his 150/150 bike is his ideal do it all for pretty much all the riding he does. I don't see any of the SH based pros on DH bike outside of proper DH runs / races.
https://www.rootsandrain.com/event3117/2015-apr-26-borderline-pmba-enduro-2-grizedale-forest/results/#hu18m
/blockquote>
I was more shocked that she ended up only 2 places back from Sam Hill!!
We didn't race Gawton as it was full and we were on the waiting list. He has raced there and did well.
The particular DH bike we can buy as well as the Enduro if needed, it's not an either or... But i accept it's not the greatest DHer.
So we'll put the idea to bed and about Xmas this year we'll have a "what enduro for the lad" type thread.
Thanks all for then input.
This is the upside of living in a country where U15’s aren’t allowed to use triple clamp forks in competition.
I'm intrigued. Any idea why that is?
My mate is having the same battle with his similar aged lad
My understanding is that is the opposite battle weeksy is having. Weeksyjnr is quite happy with riding what he has. I think it's the OP that wants to spend some money!
you’ve never done one but you’re talking about changing bikes already?
Who's never done one? He's raced 5 different DH races at 4 different places.
The time is right when he turns round and says “jesus h christ dad, could do with a DH bike here”. Prior to that just sit back and enjoy him giving zero shits and hammering the enduro bike
This. I used to do DH races (but not competitively) on a hardtail which whilst compromised will still get you down the hill, skills count for a lot more.
I’m intrigued. Any idea why that is?
@thegeneralist I'm not entirely sure, but I believe it's both to encourage skills development and prevent smaller kids from having heavy front end related accidents. Whatever reason, it doesn't seem to do any harm to the French kids' progression.
I'd take the approach of using the DH days as focussed time based training for the Enduro races if thats where his focus is. Ignore the actual results, but developing a higher comfort zone to descending at speed against the clock.
I agree that a used low budget DH bike will not make any meaningful difference, plus I'd think your math will be off in that it'll be 1200 plus a new wheelset, plus some significant suspension work etc etc.
What ever the theoretical loss on buying a DH bike for DH only events would be, I would apply to some structured strength/core conditioning (bodyweight based rather than lifting) and/or some more focussed skills sessions.
core strength, confidence and bike skills at that age will almost always trump a top end equipment and you are always going to be competing against kids whos parents have bigger equipment budgets.
We are lucky here in Squamish/Whistler that we have several youth development coaching programs with international success stories (although to be fair it is more often the parents with the bigger wallets putting their kids through these programs)
Lol indeed it doesn't. The French are who everyone looks up to at the moment for sure.
and/or some more focussed skills sessions.
He's got skills session this weekend, then a 1:1 day with Katy curd in 3-4 weeks too. We're not shy at putting in the time.
I know someone with a 2016 ns fuzz 1 medium gathering dust if it would be of any interest?
Things I spend money on before even considering a DH bike:
-Tyres*
-Brakes
-Supension service/tuning
-Training day with a coach
-More practice
*For DH only days, DH tyres will make a big difference, Maxxgrip/Ultrasoft up front and something harder on the back, both with proper casings.
Tyres*
-Brakes
-Supension service/tuning
-Training day with a coach
-More practice
1. Tyres I guess we could do a bit better on. Currently got a Shorty on the front and a DHF on the back.
2. Suspension serviced 3 weeks ago
3. I'll keep saying it, he had 4 sessions with coach last year and has 3 in the next 5 weeks.
4. We practice every weekend, different locations, terrain. He goes to school, it's dark after school, we can't ride more than we do.
I'm not sure things like casings make a massive difference as he's 50kg, but sure, link me up to some rubber and I'll see.
Its more the compound, Maxxgrip up front / Maxxterra out back in DD casing, lower pressures, more grip, however you have to play the game of not destroying wheels and tyres.
What tyres has he ridden and what has he liked? Assegai is a great tyre but these things are pretty personal.
Compounds are the obvious help for grip, but sturdier casings also help damp the tyre for an even more planted feel
He's ridden tonnes, he doesn't seem to care much. He's never actually complained about any, I've bought that Assegai above and it'll be kept as his race front and removed between races for whatever we have lying about for riding days.
Well, if I can be arsed.
Not unless you’re going to buy a good one and he’s going to use it a lot. It’s a bit like all the people who have a fully tricked out to of the range trail/enduro bike that they ride all year around, but have/buy a semi-crapped out, mid-range DH bike to take to the Alps once a year which although it has longer travel, is running a much more basic suspension setup and components.
Keep using what he has for now and when the time comes to upgrade (if it comes) get a decent one. DH bikes are great, but there’s no point in halfarsing it as ths5 would be a waste of money.
Strength and fitness is what he (and you and me and most of us on here) most likely needs to get faster. That and some coaching (both less cool than a shiny bike though 😁).
Just let him have fun like you’re doing now and if he wants to get better and do more in the future then go for it. For now it looks like he’s enjoying himself which is the main thing.
For now it looks like he’s enjoying himself which is the main thing
100%, we're both enjoying it massively at the moment. We've ridden loads lately and loads of places/trails we've not been before. The next few months are crazy with events, coaching and riding plans, so there's really no rush on any decisions, but as above, i think the DH bike can go very much on the back burner/binned.
Regarding "if we'll upgrade", don't get me wrong, both me and him love his Sworks, it's absolutely brilliant and he's very much at home on it... but i'd say by the end of this year with the rate he's growing, it'll simply be too small for him. It will be a sad day for both of us when it goes as we've had some really special moments on the Sworks, but i can't stop him growing and i can't make the bike bigger than it actually is 😀
The debate will rage in my mind now over the coming year as to what to replace it with though. But that's a whole other thread of insanity right there.