Does anyone ever wonder how many bike brands there can be?
Yes.. I think it depends on the bikes. Carbon and e-bikes are big-brand products, needs a lot of investment and high volumes to make it work.
Simpler or lower-tech bikes can be brilliant and be done well (better?) by smaller companies, so that bike category could support a lot of smaller brands.
The problem is, this is a tech-fashion enthusiast market with a lot of marketing of minor stuff presented as making a major difference. In reality there's little real differentiation and it's a brand or spec value thing. E-bikes have given it all a shot in the arm but it wasn't one small brands could take much advantage of.
The spec on this for this price point is brilliant . if that was a California based brand it would be closer to 8k
It may be, but it's still a £6,000 bike with a quite niche use range - a non-e long travel MTB that isn't going to be a pedaller's choice. And selling on value while being a techy product is a risky place to be (I'm not saying that was Deviate's intention, just that's what's presented here).
Are there any sales numbers floating about for MTB's overall? I assume not but I'm curious as well how big the market is globally (or even nationally).
Just with very basic numbers a single employee on UK minimum wage costs a business ~£27,500/year based on 37.5hr week once you include NI contributions etc. or £2,300/month. So if you're selling a bike at £4k with a 20% profit margin then you need to sell 3/month per employee even completely ignoring all the other development & overhead costs (and I'd be surprised if they are all making 20% as a small-brand or paying everyone at the company minimum wage).
Obviously the vast majority of the market is probably BSO's sold in the low hundreds of £££ from mass retailers, but I'm curious how many monthly sales of say £2-5k MTB's the rest of the industry are competing for and existing on. Probably not a question that can be answered easily/at all just my internal ramblings.
Having said that apparently 75 million new cars were sold in 2024, with 2 million in the UK alone so perhaps I'm just struggling to grasp/visualise the actual scale of the markets!
Haven't seen any figures, but I would guess it's safe to say that sales of non-powered MTBs have got into the dozens this year.
some riders won't even consider a bike without a motor now
Messner once that's said society will fail because it's too lazy to go by foot.
I know nothing of the company but do wonder at their staffing.
Looking at someone like Cotic, that I also know very little about, I get the impression that Deviate employed a lot more to sell a lot less.
The staffing numbers seem odd considering they didn't produce anything but were effectively a designer/importer/distributer.
Doesn’t say they were full time, I don’t think.
Shocked and sorry to read about this happening to Deviate. They and the whole bike industry have been hit hard in recent years but I thought a company like Deviate would do well. I have had a Highlander since 2022 and it has served me and my type of riding brilliantly and the service from both Deviate and their dealer at 20Twenty have been first class. I really hope that they can arise from this and then continue in a revised form. Meanwhile a bitter blow to their staff in the run in to Christmas and thoughts are with them.
Deviate’s bikes always have a good account of themselves, courtesy of McTrail Rider.
If you’re doing small scale production, I’d bank on figuring out a way to 3-D print custom frames from hemp resin (other plants are available). Reinforced with Graphene.
That said, all the better if you can have your own (legal) hemp plantation at hand.
At the end of the day, it’s the intellectual property that generates the £££££££.
We look forward to their next ventures.
At the end of the day, it’s the intellectual property that generates the £££££££.
Indeed it there’s not much of that. I imagine the ip is around the kinematics and I doubt you have to move a pivot point much to be clear of the ip
The Claymore is such a good bike - shame to see them go under.
At least the assets got bought so there's a chance for some kind of continuation, even if it's not the same company.
Phil beat me to the post . Goods news on a Friday
Ah good, think I'll be getting a spare idler order in early doors just in case.
Ah good, think I'll be getting a spare idler order in early doors just in case.
@nixie, give Iain at The Bike Works in Stirling a shout now. He’s taken on lots of spares for Deviate, including a heap of idlers this week. I’ll pick one up for Mrs a11y’s Highlander unless I can find the spare I think I already have…
some good news now where did I put that lottery ticket...
Thanks @a11y will try and get in touch. His website is er 'interesting' (not really his just another site on the URL on his Facebook page).
@nixie yeah Iain's skills are definitely focussed on riding than online presence, he's a good few years older than me and still drops me on the way up AND downhill 😀. He's works closely with Deviate themselves and is taking on lots of their spares.
Does anybody on here remember when one of the owners (Ben possibly, i'm not certain) was on a Mc Trailrider video in Scotland and went barrelling down a shared trail and very nearly hit some walkers? He then gave it the big "I stopped easily i'm a riding god (paraphrasing a bit)" on here when folks called him out on it? Some of us have long memories and I know a few people for whom the brand basically stopped existing for after that. They were all in the market for exactly the types of bike that Deviate offered but would never support a brand owned by such a person. Best of luck to the actual employees though.
That episode certainly put me off buying one and still does, as does the fact he's still on board but the guy who designed the bikes isnt.
For those interested .
That episode certainly put me off buying one and still does, as does the fact he's still on board but the guy who designed the bikes isnt.
No excuse for dickish riding but I can't believe people are blackballing a whole brand on that basis, so he got over-excited whilst on camera and riding with a semi-Youtube celebrity, that sounds like a perfectly human mistake. And getting defensive when you're being hounded by the STW mob? I would forgive most people that one 😆
More to the point I'm pretty sure I read that they WERE bringing the designer (Chris Deverson I think I read?) back on board.
Is it too warm in that room, or freezing cold? Confusing.
No excuse for dickish riding but I can't believe people are blackballing a whole brand on that basis, so he got over-excited whilst on camera and riding with a semi-Youtube celebrity, that sounds like a perfectly human mistake. And getting defensive when you're being hounded by the STW mob? I would forgive most people that one 😆
Anyone got a link to the video and/or the thread?
I'm generally quite wary of phoenix brands but given that this seems to be becoming the norm I guess I need to start re-evaluating my criteria.
If it's a phoenix brand and the sole owner has a history of acting like an unapologetic twonk (if that's what actually happened) then that is kind of important to know.
Is it too warm in that room, or freezing cold? Confusing.
Dual Zone climate control, its the future
got over-excited whilst on camera and riding with a semi
Which of us hasn't done this?
"owner has a history of acting like an unapologetic twonk"
This, rather than the riding itself.
Anyone got a link to the video and/or the thread?
The video was edited by the Deviate "Ambassador" McTrail rider shortly after to remove the dodgy segment, as I remember.
Ben Jones did used to run TrailAddiction, a guiding company in the Alps that had a big reputation for being real dicks, to the point that it hindered guiding companies with UK staff in the region they were based in having proper access to trails. It's what's always made me wary of Deviate.
Some of you lot have some weird hang ups about what'll put you off buying a bike. I bought a Claymore MX last year because it's an absolutely banging bike and rides like nothing else I've tried.
In my experience everyone with the drive to own and run a company in the modern era has to have a least some dickish tendencies in order to make a real go of things in the first place.
Ben Jones did used to run TrailAddiction, a guiding company in the Alps that had a big reputation for being real dicks, to the point that it hindered guiding companies with UK staff in the region they were based in having proper access to trails. It's what's always made me wary of Deviate.
not sure that’s right. Ben used to guide for TA but Ash and Ali (names might be slightly off) were the owners.
I bought a Highlander in December, and had many queries before I eventually purchased. Ben was excellent throughout, and has been since.
To blacklist a bike brand based on reports of an incident of poor behaviour is a bit odd. Implies you'd need to vet all of Trek, Specialized etc's board members before you could find a bike that met your moral requirements. But that's the beauty of capitalism I suppose, exercise your right to not use that company.
Unless it's nestle. F*CK nestle.
Didn't he leave TA to set up his own guiding company? I seem to remember BKXC did some of his tours in Spain (Pyrenees). The local guides he employed seemed good.
The problem was that is wasn't just a report of an incident. Anyone could see it because it was viewable on McTrailrider's channel for quite a while until it was edited out. To be honest if he he had held his hands up and said " Fair play I did wrong" and apologised then he would have come out of it a lot better but unfortunately he doubled down on the whole " i'm a great rider, I stopped easily and missed them by miles" when several people on here called him out on his behaviour and proved that he is in fact a dick. I would never buy anything from him and I personally know at least 2 people who have cancelled orders from Deviate after contact with him.I bought a Highlander in December, and had many queries before I eventually purchased. Ben was excellent throughout, and has been since.
To blacklist a bike brand based on reports of an incident of poor behaviour is a bit odd. Implies you'd need to vet all of Trek, Specialized etc's board members before you could find a bike that met your moral requirements. But that's the beauty of capitalism I suppose, exercise your right to not use that company.
Unless it's nestle. F*CK nestle.
I can only agree everytime ive spoke to Ben and the lads at Deviate they were nothing but top draw,. Even about routes in the Alps and other none Deviate things . The Highlander rides extremely well . As for the hangups on roudy riders im sure many many people on here have had run ins with walkers while riding fast or riding a little lairy . But flaming a business on those reasons seem a little purile .. hey ho each to their own .,
I've never seen the clip or aftermath so I can't comment really. It's fair enough, if that's how people perceive things and decide not to buy from them, totally their call.
It's certainly a bold move for a company owner to give it large and double down when among the community of their most likely customers, but that's their commercial risk to take i guess!
Ben Jones did used to run TrailAddiction, a guiding company in the Alps that had a big reputation for being real dicks, to the point that it hindered guiding companies with UK staff in the region they were based in having proper access to trails. It's what's always made me wary of Deviate.
No, Ben used to guide for TrailAddiction, then went off and setup his own thing, Ben Jones MTB.
No sure how I feel about phoenix companies that come back to life run by the same founder as the first time around. On one hand I'm thinking fair play that you want to go through that again. On the other theres just a nagging feeling someone else was left to pick up the debt that must have been jettisoned to making going around again viable.
Can't see this being an easy win. A brand that customers will have a certain amount of trepidation about buying with the possible warranty risks of them going pop again and a market where heavy discounting is available all over the place and emtbs dominating the higher spend end of consumer choices.
Didn't he leave TA to set up his own guiding company? I seem to remember BKXC did some of his tours in Spain (Pyrenees). The local guides he employed seemed good.
he certainly did. Seemed to focus mostly on big multi-day trips (which looked pretty awesome)
Some of you lot have some weird hang ups about what'll put you off buying a bike.
Isn’t that the whole point of marketing departments? Do it well and it generates sales. Do it badly and it looses you sales. There are companies I wont buy from because the idea of giving the owner my money, based on their image, because I’ve never met them, is enough to buy from someone else
160mm fork, 155mm travel , mullet and 64 HA?
There was talk of a shorter travel bike being considered...might be that? Or could be something far more meaty.
Given the position of the company I would put money on them merging the 2 current models into 1. See also: new Cotic
