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I am trying to understand how you go about creating a winter cycle training plan bespoke to your ability / recovery rate, with the aim being that come next spring I am ready to handle back to back rides of 4 - 5 hours on the MTB and to be as strong (highest FTP possible) and feel like you have utilised your 7-10hrs / week during winter in the most efficient manner.
So I know step 1 is to go and do an FTP test. From this figure I can obviously calculate my Tempo, Sweet Spot, Threshold and VO2 Max power bands. The thing is how do you translate those number into an actual plan that ensures your endurance / stamina increases, but without increasing the weekly training stress too much too quickly which results in fatigue and eventually missed sessions?
For example, when creating the plan I decide Tuesday will be a 1 hour Sweet Spot workout, Thursday a Threshold Session, Saturday a 1.5 - 2 hour Tempo ride and Sunday a long endurance ride. What duration do you prescribe for each of the sweet spot / threshold intervals in each of the 1 hour blocks, how does interval duration increase from week 1 compare to week 2?
I appreciate there are lots of questions above, but when I look at off the shelf training plans I don't see how they can possibly work as each individual surely handles different training stress increases from week to week and also have very different recovery rates.
Thanks
The Zwift plan that sprang to mind was https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/gran-fondo/#gran-fondo , but there might be more suitable ones.
I use TrainerRoad (can't get on with Zwift), they have lots of plans in low, mid and high volume formats. They have a wizard style plan builder that you can try out (without being able to save the plan or actually do the workouts) so you can see how a progression is laid out, mostly it's a case of clicking the relevant option and dragging things around.
Obviously if you've never done any structured training then pretty well anything will give you improvements. If you want something absolutely bespoke to you then a coach and a lot of time (and cash) is the way to go. Plans like TR's will probably get you most of the way there at a fraction of the cost. It takes a while in any training plan before you get to know what really works for you and figure out how to adjust the plan.
I do the low volume TR plans, that's just three workouts per week and a total of 4-5hrs per week depending on where in the process I am. Remember that proper recovery is as important as the workouts themselves so going for higher volumes may not be the best option. I'm thirteen months into the workouts, my FTP has risen from 241W to 272W, roughly 13%. That's with me in my 60s so by rights I should be on the decline, it's also with a lifetime's base of strong aerobic fitness ten years of which have been on the bike.
See if you can find a coach who'll do you a 'consultation' rather than lock you into a plan for ever more 😉
Drop me a mail/pm if you want more details.
Thanks for the replies, but off the shelf plans do not take into account how an individual reacts to training stress. For example I am 48 and I know for certain that I will not recover at the same rate as someone 20-30 years younger than myself. None of the off shelf plans seem to adjust the plan according to age.
Also I am not looking for a coach as I worked with one for 4 months, but found that stressful in itself and would prefer not to go down that route.
Your training plan should be specific to your goal. You mentioned that you want to be able to do 4 - 5 hour, back to back MTB rides by spring which seems a bit vague. There's a big difference between doing that length of time at full gas than simply pootling around the countryside at 8mph. Do you intend to race (XC or Marathon, Enduro etc) or are you just wanting to improve your fitness? If it's the latter, I'm not entirely sure you'll need a massively high FTP (other than bragging rights) so doing loads of high intensity stuff might be a bit pointless. I'm hoping the XC scene is going to make a come back for 2021 so have my training focussed on that and at the moment my sessions consist of nothing more than endurance riding with the odd tempo interval thrown in. Building a decent 'base' fitness is key for me at the moment then I'll move on to the high intensity stuff at the beginning of next year.
Look at what it is you want to achieve and then look for a plan which is best suited to it, there's plenty of material out there.
There's "talk" about Trainerroad introducing Master's plans for older riders, it sounds like it's in the last phase of testing. Presumably it will allow for things like 8 or 9 day weeks as well as extra recovery weeks. So instead of a 3:1 work-recovery week ratio you'd be be able to do 2:1 or even 1:1.
At the moment all that we can do is insert extra recovery weeks ourselves - easy using TR's calendar as you can push and pull weeks to your heart's content and then copy recovery weeks into the space. It's also easy to shift workouts around - I did this today, I should have done a workout but pushed it to tomorrow as my legs are toast from a hard day's physical work yesterday. I do it regularly since my work is outdoors so weather dependent and I don't fancy an hour on the trainer after shifting several tonnes of stone when walling.
Adjusting plans automatically, and optimally, for age, ability to recover, etc. is not easy to do which is why you don't see it often if at all. It actually requires precise input from the athlete themselves, partly why I suggested a coach or adapting things as you go along.
One question not so far answered from your original post is how to structure workouts. Quick answer is to use TR's plan builder and look at the structure from there. You'll also see the progression both for each week and how individual workouts that target different systems progress. So VO2max sessions will begin with 30 seconds on/ 30 seconds off then 60 on/off, 90 on/120 off, 180 on/240 off with intensities rising from 110% FTP to 120%. Unless you are very gifted it's unlikely you'd manage more than 3mins at 120%! Generally you'll see something like: 3 sets of 5 x2 with 2 min recovery and 8 mins between sets. There'll also be a warm up and cool down bookmarking the workout.
or are you just wanting to improve your fitness? If it’s the latter, I’m not entirely sure you’ll need a massively high FTP (other than bragging rights) so doing loads of high intensity stuff might be a bit pointless.
The reason for the higher FTP was more to do with the fact that when I go bike packing a higher FTP would enable me to cycle steeper climbs loaded up with equipment and not be too close / over my FTP. When you add weight to a bike and calculate how many watts are required to take you and a loaded bike up different gradients.
For instance if bike + gear = 25Kg and rider weight = 74Kg it requires 215 Watts to take rider up a 10% climb at 7.5 km/h
If your FTP is 250 watts then you are riding in your tempo zone at 215 watts so that is going to fatigue a great deal on multiple days.
Is there really evidence that you need a different training plan at age 48?
If so then it sounds like you need a coach, if there aren't any around.
Even when I took trainig a little seriously 20+ years ago there were loads of schedules around and some you would customise.
If you've not followed a schedule before I would expect huge gains from following any reasonably structured one aimed at your outcomes, however it does sound like you might have another poor experience like with your coach, if you are super focused on details before even starting one.
Agree with whitestone about using TrainerRoad to get a sense of how the progression might work. I don't think there's a magic formula that will let you derive one to suit you personally - you either need to find a starting point and do a bit of trial and error or work with a coach who knows you well.
If you want some guiding principles for how your training might change as you get older I believe 'Fast After 50' by Joe Friel is well thought of (and I can think of a couple of folk about your age who have used it).
Coach is good, but I tend to find I'll do a 4 week block ok and then I'll just end up fatigued at some point with my sleep disturbed. End result is I'll spend a week not cycling whilst I try and sort my sleep out. That would indicate I am training maybe at too high an intensity.
So getting the balance correct is the key for me.
If you are getting fatigued after just a four week block then it sounds like you are doing way, way too much. How many workouts and hours per week was that? Also how much was supra-threshold, i.e. VO2max or anaerobic intervals?
I'm doing three workouts per week (1hr, 1hr & 1.5hrs) with roughly 250 - 300 TSS per week.
Flanagaj I have a similar issue, being 50 with some health issues and a partial knee replacement. My recovery is shocking so end end up in boom and bust all the time. I find it very hard not to over do it and dig myself a big hole which then affects everyday life, work and mood.
My end goal I similar to you with bikepacking trips (not races) and audax style rides. I've thought about 1-1 coaching but it's too pricey for me and not sure many have dealt with people who are so 'broken'. There's a coach where I am but he's totally road race focused and only new to it. I doubt he understands the reality of an old knackered Clydesdale, well I know he doesn't.
I'm currently just trying the zwift Gravel Grinder plan, but have deliberately dropped my ftp on it in an attempt to be more consistent with out doing too much for me.
How many workouts and hours per week was that? Also how much was supra-threshold, i.e VO2max or anaerobic intervals?
4 workouts / week. 2 * 1 hour mid week, 1.5hr Sat and 3 hr Sunday. Last 4 weeks have been 400-450 TSS
I think the indoor sessions are partly the problem as I think my outdoor FTP is higher as I'll do sweet spot for an hour to find my HR was at threshold for 40 mins. So that isn't going to help.
My recovery is shocking so end end up in boom and bust all the time. I find it very hard not to over do it and dig myself a big hole which then affects everyday life, work and mood.
That's exactly my story too. Given I am not going to be planning any trips until late April / May I have got plenty of time. Getting the balance right is so difficult as I can do some really hard sessions on the turbo and feel really strong, only to find that when I press stop on my Garmin it states "Recovery 3 days" people have said the Garmin recovery algo is rubbish, but it does make me think "But I'm due to ride again in < 48 hours ..."
Last 4 weeks have been 400-450 TSS
That is a lot of stress for 4 weeks! I suspect you'll go faster if you try a bit less volume and focus on doing your rides well and recovering well.
I think @whitestone and I are going to end up echoing each other here as I think we've both had some success following TrainerRoad plans.
You could always try XERT. You upload your strata history to stand then you don't need to do a FTP test again. It also calculates your aerobic threshold (LT1) and also maximum power output. It does need a power meter or a smart trainer to help set the zones but then has an algorithm using Heart rate to calculate power values on outdoor rides if you don't have a power meter.
That is a lot of stress for 4 weeks!
It isnt if you have built up to it. I have been averaging 500 TSS through most of this year. This has been a mix of TrainerRoad and Zwift. Although I love Zwift for the social element (through this forum) TrainerRoad is far superior in terms of training. Listen to the podcast as well as you can learn a lot.
If you can afford both then I would use a mix of the two to be honest (or at least give it a go for a month or so). A LV TrainerRoad plan should leave enough for you to do outdoor rides or Zwift rides. You can also plug these in to the plan builder and it will build the plan around it. All the plans suggest alternatives if you want to go outside e.g. instead of a 90 min Z2 turbo ride go outside and do a couple of hours. Once you know your limits on the turbo you can start to do outside work based on RPE and how it feels rather than HR as that is quite fickle to train against.
My CTL (Chronic Training Load), which is a long term daily average, is 62 equating to a weekly TSS of 430. It's been up to 72 or 500 earlier in the year. So 400-450 isn't that high a figure. But as robbo states, I've built up to it. What that doesn't include is "life" TSS: physical job; kids being ill; employment worries; etc.
Indoor and outdoor FTP values rarely align, your outdoor value can be 10% or more higher so if you are using that when on the trainer you'll be wiped out. Do an FTP test on the trainer and use that value indoors. The Garmin recovery figure is bizarre - I've gone for a steady three hour ride (HR not even close to moving out of zone 1) and it reckons a day's recovery.
Trainerroad have their own forums and a fairly common theme is: "I've started on Sweet Spot Base Low Volume (this is 3 workouts per week) and everything is so easy. Should I add more workouts/load?" The usual response is to stick to the plan as the fatigue builds up over the course of the plan and that overdoing things now will lead to problems down the line.
The TR team have mentioned that they have the details of over 90 million individual workouts on their system that they constantly analyse to see how users deal with both individual workouts and how the plans are structured. So if there's a low completion rate of a workout when it follows a particularly hard workout then they'll modify the plans so the completion rates rise. Their aim isn't to break you but to make you fitter/better.
If you use Strava and log all your rides on it then you can sign up to intervals.icu (it's free) and get analysis of your rides - power and HR info, etc. Not as complete as Training Peaks but more than adequate for us amateurs.
Just to embarrass him - robbo1234biking featured in one of their podcasts a couple of months ago:
Anyone would wonder how Merckx and Hinault trained without all the data we have now.
(I know that sounds unhelpful.. what I'm getting at is how training on feel, knowing the basic methods, paying attention to your responses and having patience with the methods goes a long way, or perhaps should be the start point)
I've seen my numbers really start to move when doing some focused strength training - especially helpful for maxing FTP for MTB racing. I used the free trial on the below and stuck with it.
https://thecyclingcoach.co.uk/
I'm usually feeling a fair bit of fatigue by the fourth week, not excessively tired but enough that I'll start finding familiar intervals more demanding. A few days of Z2 stuff is enough to set me up for the next 3 week stint.
TrainerRoad is a great introduction to structured workouts, plans are progressive and will help get you towards where you want to be in spring.
My 2p, work out what you can actually do (and want to do), and plan something arround that.
After years of trying I've finally admitted that the idea of going out and doing intervals really holds zero interest for me. Even scheduled turbo trainer sessions are barely tolerable. Even simpllifying it down to the level of picking a couple of 20 minute segenents (or 10, 5 whatever) and my motivation to ride the same things week after week wanes.
OTOH I'm pretty good at just going out riding every day once I get into a routine. Back in the office I was going out with different coleagues every lunchtime for 60-90min at different intensities, fast day, beginners day, CX day, brisk day. Clubrun on a Sunday, evening group rides. By the time I'd filled a week with social riding I was getting a decent ammount and variety of riding anyway.
So in a normal year I just do that, and if I miss one as I'm tired it's no biggie, and I just slot in a trainerroad session if I feel like I need an extra ride.
Obviously COVID has ruined that though!
Mind if I drop you a PM? we have very similar bike objectives and I think you might be able to offer a bit of guidance seeing as some of my objectives you’ve already ridden.