[Closed] Death of the mid sized event?

I think one explanation is this, who organises road events? Clubs, who organises off-road events? Either mates or companies. There is no middle ground,

Maybe there are just too many events?

One issue is that, I think, road riders have a 'history' of competition and entering organised events. Riders want to 'train' and test themselves against others.

Whilst mtbing has always had an element of competition the majority of riders just want to go out and play in the woods or do a longer ride with mates.

I think the kind of 'off road sportive' that Wiggle etc are organising are quite good - they are run as time trials but with an emphasis on giving a choice of distances and encouraging people to participate rather than race.

I think mtb endurance racing has just reached saturation point - there's too many events chasing the number of riders who want to ride them.

I help to organise a 'mid-size' downhill event and it's a whole lot of work. Chuck in the flaming hoops you need to leap through to make an event 'safe' and it's a lot of time and money. We normally make a little bit of money on top (which goes back into the MTB club), but have made a loss in the past. It's also very noticeable how every year costs have gone up - certainly more than inflation.

I say the above, but the events have got progressively more popular and I do get a massive buzz seeing them work. We are getting professional help for the next one though as the last one started to threaten day jobs and marriages! I guess that means it's turning into a 'big' event...

Never having done it and out of curiosity what are the main costs?

I can imagine time is a massive one but what are the major financial bits? Bogs? Timing?

I don't think there are too many events when HONC fills up within hours and and MM within days.
It would be good if mountain biking was more like motocross or time trialling, where there's a national network of clubs all putting on events throughout the year.
I don't see how that could ever work though.

I can imagine time is a massive one but what are the major financial bits? Bogs? Timing?

Costs are big and sponsors will only finance and provide so much.

In no particular order

Venue costs
Facilities (Toliets, showers, water and the such)
Number plates
Insurance
Feeding costs to volunteers and marshalls
Radio
PA systems
Banners
Promotion

The list goes on and on.

I help to organise a 'mid-size' downhill event and it's a whole lot of work. Chuck in the flaming hoops you need to leap through to make an event 'safe' and it's a lot of time and money.

Not mountain bike related, but I used to organise medium sized club nights - and one thing that used to really get to me was the amount of whinging that goes on, I was wondering if it's the same with mountain bike events?

You'd put in loads of time and effort to these events for very little or no financial reward, and still there would be loads of people whining about every last detail.

Not sure what counts as a mid sized event but there is the new Gravity Enduro series that seems to be doing ok so far.

I don't think there are too many events when HONC fills up within hours and and MM within days

MM has been going for years, it pretty much promotes it's self many riders see it as a flagship the one race to enter. New events need to offer something different an extra appeal and not just another race.

You'd put in loads of time and effort to these events for very little or no financial reward, and still there would be loads of people whining about every last detail.

People are people they whine about such incidental things that 99% of people wouldn't even give a thought about. It's true for events and life in general it's one of the small things about dealing with people you just have to accept. You can give them a reasonable answer, explain to them again and maybe a third or fourth time. In the end you have to try and bite your lip to stop from saying "Well **** off then!"

Well localy theres the Gorrick series, and there are certainly a few other series within traveling distance.

Like someone up there said, it's not a lack of events, its a lack of organisers. Roadies join clubs, clubs organise races.

Swinley - £20/year pays for insurance and some trail building through gorrick, and thus gets used as a race venue.

Aston Hill - as above, run as a club, tracks built, races held.

How many MTB'ers actualy pay fees and join a club? Seems part of the culture that we'll winge and moan if we so much as pay for a car park let alone a club!

Major costs…

Timing (expensive if you are doing it with chips or dibbers)
On-line entry
Bogs (£100 a go, showers are much more)
Site rental (HtN paid £3 per person per night for the camp site). The Forestry Commission will charge their cut too.
Footpath closures
Insurance and registrations fees
First aid (very expensive)
Equipment hire. Barriers, skips, generators, PA, tentage etc
Odds and sods. Staple guns, buckets, machetes(!), cable ties, barrier tape, laminating pouches for signs, number boards etc
Marshals (can be expensive if you need lots of them)
Marketing (if you can afford it)

On top of this you have to arrange catering, DJs, beer tent etc to make the event impressive enough that the customers are prepared to pay to enter. Also a big event has a big course which has to be cleared, marked and tidied up.

Not mountain bike related, but I used to organise medium sized club nights - and one thing that used to really get to me was the amount of whinging that goes on, I was wondering if it's the same with mountain bike events?

Fortunately it hasn't been too bad for the five events I've been involved with. There are always a few, but most riders seem to genuinely enjoy themselves. Similarly, we actively try and learn from our mistakes at each race to make the next one better.

It's true for events and life in general it's one of the small things about dealing with people you just have to accept.

Yeah, tbf I think it's also human nature that you tend to remember the whingers much more than you remember the nice appreciative people.

I can imagine time is a massive one but what are the major financial bits? Bogs? Timing?
Costs are big and sponsors will only finance and provide so much.

In no particular order

Venue costs
Facilities (Toliets, showers, water and the such)
Number plates
Insurance
Feeding costs to volunteers and marshalls
Radio
PA systems
Banners
Promotion

The list goes on and on.

Essentially everything you see at the event from the land to the marshalls, and then quite a lot you don't (web hosting, insurance, fees to governing bodies...)

I feel bad about not getting around to entering the Nutcracker 24 before they pulled the plug, though I'm sure one more entry wouldn't have made a difference. I'm quite relieved about not having to do a 24 hour solo race though.

Exactly pimp from that "Can I have another cable tie please" to the big spangly banners, and everything between and beyond.

It is possible to run an event on the cheap if you are lucky and can live with some risks.

[url= http://www.BigBikeBash.co.uk ]A particular event I have been involved with[/url] was lucky with the venue they found as it had an existing trail, toilets, showers and camping.

We paid for :

Extra toilets
Marquees for food, beer and shelter from the sun
Beer for the beer festival
Curtain sided trailer for the Live music festival stage
PA system for the music

We didn't pay for:

Timing equipment as we just recorded positions for those who cared
Insurance - This was a high risk strategy on my part but I got away with it
Promotion - Just spammed this placed to death and mentioned it to anyone I spoke with

It worked and made money

First the Nutcracker and now Kielder Calling. A couple of years ago the Wild Boar 24 got pulled also. Has the mid sized event had its day?

I don't know - it seems to me that it's mainly multi lap endurance events (6, 12, 24 hour) that will be the most vulnerable. I see this as a pretty mature market, and most of the established events have taken on their own personality and reputation, whether it's for atmosphere, course or even timing in the season.

Obviously an event succeeds or fails on the number of entries it receives..

From a participants point of view they require a pretty big commitment in terms of time (training, and a weekend or so away) and money so there's probably only one or two a season that Joe Average will go to, especially since the courses aren't normally that memorable, unless the weather intervenes.

On the other hand sportive type events (I'm no longer sure of the correct term) such as Dyfi, Honc etc etc can be fun even if you're not fit, or you're hungover, and you just want to ride out with a group of mates, the courses and views are much better and you're not riding round in circles. I think that as the average age of the mountainbiker increases, and there's greater pressure on our time (ie families) then we'll look for better value for our time.
Ten years ago I wouldn't have looked at riding cross- now I know that I can do a season and pretty much be back for a late Sunday lunch after each race- if I want to test my endurance, that's where I'd focus.

A bit of a random ramble, I know, but non technical endurance events don't really do it for me any longer- I'm not sure whether others feel the same way?

A bit of a random ramble, I know, but non technical endurance events don't really do it for me any longer- I'm not sure whether others feel the same way?

I've never done one, but I'm baffled by the huge appeal of Mountain Mayhem (and similar races) - I mean, it sounds like it's well organised and a good atmosphere etc but in terms of riding I just don't get it.

I suppose it's just not the kind of challenge that appeals to me - if there is little or no technical interest I'd probably rather try and do a road bike event where you get to travel around a bit.

I think the same is happening in Sportives - there's a few events (like the Fred Whitton Challenge, the Etape Calendonia etc) which fill up straight away and almost "self-promote", there's a few big events which people will actively target (like the Dragon Ride, Cheshire Cat, Brecon Beast, Wiggle MagnifiCat etc) and then there's a whole host of smaller ones followed a bit further down the scale by club-organised ones. A lot of the middle ground ones can barely make ends meet; they're competing against huge events with 3000+ riders each paying £30 and they're trying to do the same but with 400 riders each paying £20 and the number of events means that riders are becoming a bit more discerning. Ten years ago there were about a dozen Sportives a year, now there's nearly 200. In some ways that's good, it drives up standards, offers more choice; in other ways it's very bad - wildly varying standards, more traffic congestion in the "honey pot areas" (like the Forest of Dean) which annoys the locals, everyone remembers the small minority of riders who litter or disobey the rules of the road so more complaints etc. Very difficult balancing act.

As mentioned above there are some people who are professional moaners. You can have a three different types of flapjack at your feed station but someone will complain that there wasn't a cherry and walnut option...

Costs:
insurance, time of volunteers, fuel (driving round the course putting up/taking down arrows etc), number boards, venue hire, food, toilets, promotion materials, timing, website/online-entry, first aid, expenses for the volunteer marshals. List is endless.

Insurance - This was a high risk strategy on my part but I got away with it

😯

Is there not some sort of legal requirement to have insurance for events like that?

It would be good if mountain biking was more like motocross or time trialling, where there's a national network of clubs all putting on events throughout the year.

What, like some sort of Cycling Federation, covering Britain? With affiliated clubs and race series? No, you're right, that wouldn't work...

That's not quite the same thing though, is it.
I'm not too sure how motocross works, but aren't there dozens of local clubs renting a field off a farmer for a weekend to put on an event, then racing at another cub's event the following weekend.
Same with time trialling. I haven't checked, but I would guess that if I wanted to ride a time trial within the next week, there's probably at least 10 events within 50 miles.
There's nothing within mountain biking to compare to that.

What, an event with no Insurance ? I guess you could do it on private land, but given the amount of paperwork required for FCS or any other state owned land would be impossible without some serious acts of fraud.

There is another model - we are kind of a club, but with a lot of support from local community. Towns should run events like they do in Europe, where these things are seen as beneficial to the community.

we don't run events we run races, the costs can be minimised but it requires a big team, lots of brilliant volunteers and [b]mtbers being prepared to pre-enter events[/b].

we run under the BC rules, [b]insurance[/b] and with the (non cash)support of local authorities

if there is little or no technical interest

Yeah, tbf I think it's also human nature that you tend to remember the whingers much more than you remember the nice appreciative people.

get your entries in!
www.brownbacksracing.co.uk

...and after that brief commercial it is back to the topic.

Guerrilla advertising in action! 😀

I'm not too sure how motocross works, but aren't there dozens of local clubs renting a field off a farmer for a weekend to put on an event, then racing at another cub's event the following weekend.
Same with time trialling. I haven't checked, but I would guess that if I wanted to ride a time trial within the next week, there's probably at least 10 events within 50 miles.
There's nothing within mountain biking to compare to that.

That's different though, time trialling requires two blokes and a watch, it costs nothing and it can break even with 5 riders. Not really the same as any MTB event. If you want I'll organise an MTB event, £5, I'll give you an explanation of the route, then tell you how long it took you.

MX isn't a hugely relevant comparison either, as the vast majority of participants are competitive - if nothing else, it's about the only way to fully utilise the bike.

As a proportion of people who own bikes, even those who are serious riders, the competitive ones are a small proportion.

Brownbacks - looks good.

Small point on your website though - where are the races held? It's not immediately obvious...

Yeah, there's always going to be differences with any comparison.
MX is mainly centred around racing. Even though there's only a small proportion of mountain bikers in to racing, I wonder if it would be enough to do something similar.

Strangely enough, I was thinking about suggesting off road time trialling as an alternative low cost form of racing.
Apart from it being illegal to hold speed events on bridleways, what's to stop some sort of timed loop with minimal signposting and marshalling ?

Apart from it being illegal to hold speed events on bridleways, what's to stop some sort of timed loop with minimal signposting and marshalling ?

If you are charging money then lots!

Insurance, first aid, access, marshals yadda yadda yadda...

Also if you expect somebody to pay then you have to put on a bit of a "show".

You can use bridleways if you are careful. At no point in any of the literature issued by the organisers of HtN was the word "race" used. 😉

I recon you've got a valid point on grass routes feel and lower entry levels at events. However, the man/woman hours that go into event planning and direction certainly makes the minimum wage feel like a dim and distant memory:o)

Having said that, there are events like the 24/12 hour of Exposure, Brighton Big Dog, Singletrack Weekender, Bearded Men ones (don't know much), Strathpuffer etc. Progression (either upwards or downards) is an inevitable inertia. Quality attracts people. Sara and Paul tripled their entries this year, chapeau, I say.

No Fuss, Pro Velo and Mike Wilkens (and the others) have all established a 'brand' following because they consistantly hit out high quality events and ... well, everyone needs to make money!

we remember the people who try our races and challenge themselves to finish, we remember the smiles and the laughter, we like making things happen

****ing hippies. 😛

[i]Apart from it being illegal to hold speed events on bridleways, what's to stop some sort of timed loop with minimal signposting and marshalling ? [/i]

MTG - these guys seem happy to roganise somethign along those lines;

[url= http://www.ukcyclingevents.co.uk/events/ups-downs-mtb-ride/ ]http://www.ukcyclingevents.co.uk/events/ups-downs-mtb-ride/[/url]

they have full signposting and feed stops - I think they get upto 1000 riders although staggered starts and the distance mean the actual route isn't packed with riders.

First the Nutcracker and now Kielder Calling. A couple of years ago the Wild Boar 24 got pulled also. Has the mid sized event had its day?

I think you need deep pockets, a USP, and plenty of organisation willing to buffer some of the financial aspects. You also need some patience as year 1 will always be hard

I know from my HtN experiences that a cheap event costing a couple of grand is relatively easy to stage and a bigger one, with a bigger budget and higher customer expectations, is a pain in the ass. Last summer’s HtN only just happened because of constant spamming on here to get numbers and our sponsor (JMC IT) covering the cost of the timing and on-line entry.

Are we getting to the stage where the only events will be those with a big corporate sponsor and many years of heritage or something that can be put on for next to nothing with no real financial risk for the organisers?

venues are always the key to these things as the more the venue has the less you need to hire in

The biggest hurdle is to get your event to sell out early, that drives the rush for tickets the following year. Pre-entry reduces the risks dramatically. The problem is encouraging pre-entry when it's counter cultural for most.

[b]warning advert below[/b]

enter this series, [b]massive discounts for pre-entry![/b]

www.brownbacksracing.co.uk

"Events" or "Races"?

To my mind an Event is a non-competitive way of getting people out riding in a group, these seem to be on the increase...

Races are also still pretty popular, there is perhaps a general shift among the large majority of MTBers away from straight XC races towards Endurance, DH and "Combined discipline" type competitions...

The biggest challenge I think faced by Event/Race organisers is costs, high costs = High entry fees = insuficient entries...

I do think there's room for something like the good old club TT model, it's not a race merely a bunch of riders setting off at intervals from one point taking a pre-determined route to another point and their start/finish times being logged, but it's NOT a race, no prizes, no points to win, no podiums, merely a training excercise for those looking to guage their performance...

Works on the road can't see why it wouldn't for MTBs, should be cheaper and easier to operate, and could help encourage people start racing too...

Thats how we started at Innerleithen a few years ago, running evening XCTT events for 20-30 folk. Easy to run, manual timing, we charged £10 per entry if I recall (and £4 of that is the BC levy). The biggest work was getting the course marked out well enough !

As well as no insurance, we ran the night race with no marshals as everyone was in the beer tent.

Fraud - don't think so but I will agree with bloody stupid

Brownbacks - looks good.

Small point on your website though - where are the races held? It's not immediately obvious

Lee Quarry

and no you don't do the full hill in every race! 😉

The biggest challenge I think faced by Event/Race organisers is costs, high costs = High entry fees = insuficient entries...

four races for £40 for series pre-entry, £20 for the Lads and Lasses, can you do it cheaper?

loads of prizes competitive and spot

(we even have a singlespeed sub category (thanks Charlie the Bikemonger for generous sponsorship))

I reckon it's more likely that the explosion of mtb's a few years back has gone, and most have moved on to road bikes for whatever reason. Any given Sunday round my way I'll see 20+ roadies 0 mtb'ers. I suppose it's more likely that I'll see roadies but the numbers on mtbs have definitely tailed off. Less audience = less income for all events, but national ones are more likely to be able to shrug it off.

can you do it cheaper?

You are in the very fortunate position of having a ready made venue and reduced overheads.

You can use bridleways if you are careful. At no point in any of the literature issued by the organisers of HtN was the word "race" used.

Like the Dyfi, which is an excellent 'event'. 😉

four races for £40 for series pre-entry, £20 for the Lads and Lasses, can you do it cheaper?

That is very good value.

four races for £40 for series pre-entry, £20 for the Lads and Lasses, can you do it cheaper?

That is very good value.

+1 - I shall have a gander... ta

Harry_the_Spider - Member

can you do it cheaper?
You are in the very fortunate position of have massivley reduced overheads thanks to free access

I agree, TBH I think Bury MBC should be picking up the site tab for you

having a ready made venue

not very good for putting in stakes though and the weather is a massive risk

Bury MBC didn't charge for the use of the park to be fair to them. We had to pay for closing paths outside it and for use of the FC land.

Anyway, we are digressing from the original point that without a big influx of sponsorship cash the 400+ rider grass roots event scene isn't looking too healthy.

but SSUK seems to be going strong

It has some heritage and a loyal following.

Brownbacks - The Big Bike Bash is £40 for adults, £20 for under 18 and £0.01 for under 12s. That is for around 40 different competitions including zip wire across a lake, climbing tower, kayaks, pedalo's, swimming pool, archery, dipping pond, nature trails, includes camping.

In summary: Yes, I can do it cheaper 😉

I also have the advantage of a ready made venue and I don't pay anyone except in beer tokens redeemable at the beer tent.

Kielder is massively out of the way from anywhere and doesn't have the reputation of other places.

The K100 was a massive success because it filled a niche. If I want to do a lap event there are loads and I'll enter a big popular one before a first timer.

Smaller events might work. I've starded doing TLI road race this year. Really good fun, minimal entry fees. Works though because "everyone" goes. To start up it would be difficult but now it's established itself ou can get 50+ riders twice a week throughout summer.

Maybe there's a market for that? I'd be interested in short 1-2hour races mid week local to Newcastle. Plenty of scope, but no money to be made.

[i]including zip wire across a lake, climbing tower, kayaks, pedalo's, swimming pool, archery[/i]

I can see why you didn't get insurance - the risk assessment would have taken forever 🙂

Maybe there's a market for that? I'd be interested in short 1-2hour races mid week local to Newcastle. Plenty of scope, but no money to be made.

There's one down here in the twee home counties which is always full. We have looked into doing something similar at Aston Hill both for both XC and DH - the primary issue is finding the people and time to organise it - it's something we'd need to have started sorting the roots for late last year. I think it's a great idea though and there's been a lot of positive feedback to it.

How much do people charge for online entry systems out of interest? It's not a massively hard thing to write from a software point of view so I wonder if it's a small industry, pay what they ask sort of thing

It has some heritage and a loyal following.

so does HTN 😉

no insurance at the BBB? you're insane, right?

no insurance at the BBB? you're insane, right?

S'funny innit - you are meant to get PL insurance for all sorts of silly things these days, but a mountain bike event with zip wires, climbing, archery etc seems like something it's probably quite sensible for!

WCA - was the event not economically viable with insurance?

How much do people charge for online entry systems out of interest? It's not a massively hard thing to write from a software point of view so I wonder if it's a small industry, pay what they ask sort of thing

It depends on what level you want. Somebody like UK Results will process your payments for a very reasonable cut. Sports Ident will look after your timing and results also. Both work well, but you get what you pay for.

The best bit for the event organiser as far as I was concerned is that we had no exposure to our customer’s bank or card details so there was no come back to us in the event of a security problem. Pay somebody else to deal with the hassle.

There's one down here in the twee home counties which is always full. We have looked into doing something similar at Aston Hill both for both XC and DH - quote]
our original idea was for an evening series but it does not work unless the course is short/ easy to mark

the primary issue [b]is finding the people and time[/b] to organise it - it's something we'd need to have started sorting the roots for late last year.

always the problem

I think it's a great idea though and there's been a lot of positive feedback to it.

the challenge is always making ideas happen

the reality is that you need a lot of commitment to make these things happen

How much do people charge for online entry systems out of interest? It's not a massively hard thing to write from a software point of view so I wonder if it's a small industry, pay what they ask sort of thing

our online entry costs have halved this year, it also gets free advertising by default at a key group of riders, entry by cheque will be gone in 2-3 years due to the actions of the banks

timing systems, there is a small company that's working in the cyclocross world who we are probably switching to for 2011 who are excellent value. He also has other ideas which would be a game changer for the costs of electronic timing.

If anyone is looking at setting something up they can always by any of our team beer and we will bore them to death with what we have done 😉

 

In no particular order:

*MTB's anti-club culture

*MTB's historic anti-racing culture

*Time - we all only have so much. We will cherry pick our events.

*Time - maybe camping driven events aren't needed. How about a hybrid between XC and enduro - 6 hours sounds OK.

*Summer - people go on holiday.

*winter - it's filthy and cold.

*A need to attend showpiece Events - MM is a self-proprelled Big Deal in people's lives

*We want flashy - low key seems to be a problem with so many MTBers. Testers have no problem with a low entry fee and an honesty box for tea and cake in the church hall. You don't see that at MM.

*Racing - the bigger the event, the less competitive we all need to be. How many attend MM or Sleepless really to race....?

(Oh, and I'll lend a hand with some of the organising for next year's HTN, though I'll also be "racing" it... 😉 )

[url= http://www.southwestscotlandcyclingproject.com/page/page/7885620.htm ]new series of events in SW Scotland[/url]
Local Sc/BC dev coach Alan Denman has come up with this series to promote cycling and competition in SW Scotland. Alan got all the local clubs together and organised them to put on this series of events. So far there has been a positive response 😆 The 1st year is being looked at as a feeler year to find out which events riders like and next years programme will be tweaked accordingly.
There was no race series of any discipline in the area with any "serious" competitor having to travel up to the central belt, Edinburgh etc or south. The hope is that there will be enough interest to maintain some sort of series for the young riders taking up the sport from the list of clubs on the site 😆

Maybe there's a market for that? I'd be interested in short 1-2hour races mid week local to Newcastle.[b] Plenty of scope, but no money to be made[/b].

why do you want to make money? are there no other reasons for doing this sort of thing?

why do you want to make money? are there no other reasons for doing this sort of thing?

Falls away, again, from the historic culture of clubs organising road races, time trials, reliability rides and audaxes. Few of these are money generating, and if they are rarely more than a few quid. And none of them would make any money if all the volunteers started charging for their time to stand on a roundabout in the middle of a busy A road....

grum - might have been viable but when I asked them to send the insurance details to WorldClassAccident at gmail the phone went very quiet and I never heard back

I think part of it is people just dont know about the smaller events unless they're in the local area and people dont travel. Dark and White always seem to get a good turn out for the Peak District trailquests and the Marathon they did recently had looked to have around the hundred mark in riders. Possibly because they've built up a strong following and there's a lot of people live close enough to the Peak to give it a go. Although they did cut the winter series back to 6 events from 8 this year, atleast the summer is still 6 events. First one is Macc Forest area on 11th May.

The Grizedale Giant was recently cancelled and the reason given was lack of numbers. It was cheap for a two day trailquest event. I guess part of this was the lakes is out of the normal area Dark and White draw from.

Went up to the NEMBOS event in Blanchland only 50 odd people did it. Thought it was a real shame as the guys organising had gained access to some estate tracks that arent rights of way. I guess the same thing, relatively small pool to draw from in terms of local riders.

I asked them to send the insurance details to WorldClassAccident at gmail the phone went very quiet and I never heard back

😆

What was the turnout to the original NEMBAs etc. back in the day?

I can remember the malvern classic having to hold qualifiers, 400 in sport, what changed? Less interest in racing. A move towards non racing events, how many people actually race at 24hr events?

Double post