Whilst drinking my morning brew out of my retro Peugeot mug, I wondered to myself what bikes they're doing these days, given their esteemed heritage as the most successful cycling trade team of all time, with the likes of the great Tom Simpson having graced their saddles, never mind the fact that my first proper racer was a Peugeot Premier back in the 80s.
So I had a look. Dear god, what have they done...
Muddy Fox used to be kinda OK... now it's all shite at the back of sports direct...
DrP
Peugeot is a sad one, they were part of CycleEurope I think but Stellantis had claimed the brand back a while ago, with great plans for relaunch. Which don't seem really to have come off.
It might just be me imagining it but I had the sense a couple of years ago that Raleigh were trying to get back into the "serious cyclist" kind of market but then I have not really heard or seen much of them since.
Tbf I don't know if they were ever considered a serious/professional brand but they seemed like it to me as a kid in the 80's!
A few years ago I'd have said Saracen. Much time spent lusting after a Kiliflyer and trying to save for the more realistic Tufftrax as an 80's teen. Then they went bad - really bad. But now their stuff seems relevant again. Not earth shatteringly innovative but in a crowded market of mostly good bikes it seems ok looking on first impressions.
Plus one for Muddy Fox. I remember going into the shop they had in London and looking at the top of the range one, somewhere between £800 and £1000 I seem to recall. I ended up buying a Rockhopper as they were half the price.
The courier was arguably one of the most important mountain bikes made in its time and now they are are just another bit of sports direct
Funnily enough I still have an original Muddy Fox handlebar pouch which it turns out was made for them by Karrimor when they were a quality brand so I must get bonus points for owning one product made by 2 companies that started at the top and worked their way to the bottom
Tbf I don’t know if they were ever considered a serious/professional brand but they seemed like it to me as a kid in the 80’s!
Yes, they had their Special Bicycle Development Unit (SBDU) that knocked out the good stuff - your bike came with a label signed by the builder.
Last I heard, Iron Horse was a supermarket BSO brand, but they might have given up now?
Raleigh were already a mixed bag when I was a kid. Reynolds 753 Team Banana on one hand, Burners were utter rubblish compared to the stuff coming out of the US at the time.
Jamis were a pretty big deal back in the 90s. They disappeared for a while... now are back with some ok looking bikes.
But who buys a £2K MTB from Millets?! 🙂
https://www.millets.co.uk/16185403/jamis-faultline-a1-full-suspension-trail-bike-16185403
Kona
True.
I can remember looking at MBUK mags as a kid in the early 90s, thinking Muddy Fox were the coolest thing ever. Never owned one because that kind of spec just wasn't attainable for kids of working class families back then.
Marin is a bit harsh, they seem to make decent semi-budget bikes that are reasonably well-designed and specced, don't they?
In some ways that's better than being another over-priced "premium" brand.
Another that might not be totally fair, but Lapierre were one of the top brands about 10 or 12 years ago - the Zesty was such a great bike (and the Spicy and Froggy) - but they quickly dropped out of relevance in the mid-tensies. Hardly see any now, despite their successful race programme.
Edit: Kona is a very good shout. Their FS bikes look woeful these days.
GT. They've gone from cutting edge suspension and materials so the budget range of PON.
Muddy Fox have been terrible by contemporary standards since about '94 and the elastomer full susser. The original owners had been robbed of the brand long before that. Its been passed between a few BSO makers before Sports Direct took over. Having said that I've just bought a MF Tempo 200 hybrid for commuting. For £200 it's a genuinely good bike.
Have Peugeot ever been any good for their actual range as opposed to rebadged custom built stuff for their race teams? Weren't Gould's Peugeot just Roberts?
Raleigh seem to be putting out some decent commuter/real world bikes now. Aside from a few MTBs that weren't American I've always seen the brand as mostly novelty toy nonsense like Vektars and Choppers, etc.
...( Raleigh)... Tbf I don’t know if they were ever considered a serious/professional brand but they seemed like it to me as a kid in the 80’s!
They definitely were a top make, but back in the day produced a full range from gas-pipe BSO's to the professional team beauty below. A resto-mode one of these would be lush, the replica ones are even quite nice.
I've still got my 1994 Muddy Fox Adventurer and my 2008ish Iron Horse 6.4 and struggle to part with both. The Muddy Fox took a lot of saving paper round money and a lot of lusting after, hate walking through the "biking" section of Sports Direct now.
Guess the brands I currently ride are doomed!
Bit of a joyless thread this!
GT have benn downhill (arf!) since they came up with the wonderful i-Drive...
GT,
bikes like the RTS, LTS were absolutely cutting edge in their time and days was when the Zaskar was the ultimate in affordable hardtail bling, There's a Zaskar in the range but it's an off-the-shelf run of the mill hard tail with SRAM NX and RS Gold suspension and it looks like every other bargain bike you could buy at Halfords.
Cannondale.
Bikes like the Badboy and Killer and Super Vee and their lightweight hardtails were everywhere, and at the top of every "superbike" test in magazines again they're now dull mainstream bikes with just a weird (and expensive) fork.
Cove Bikes. They did some ace hardtails (Stiffee, handjob) but now just a shop selling GT bikes with nothing new for years.
https://covebike.com/password
Schwinn use to make some beautiful bikes if you go back far enough but I think got caught up in various sales and now focus on low end.
Pace seem to have been in the wilderness for a while and definitely not the brand they were, which is a big shame.
Have Peugeot ever been any good for their actual range as opposed to rebadged custom built stuff for their race teams? Weren’t Gould’s Peugeot just Roberts?
Yeah, they were just the exotic-for-being-Euro version of Raleigh, surely? I had a friend who got hold of one of their expensive road bikes years ago and found that it had been welded so that the frame wasn't straight. It was great cornering in one direction, not so in the other. 😀
Mavic.
Used to be (pretty) much the go to choice for rims. Can’t remember the last time I heard of them.
As a previous owner of one I would offer Intense as being a shadow of their former selves. Pre carbon frames they were up there as one of the best but seem to have lost their way since imho
I did see a video recently that was discussing shimano. The debate wasn't "are they behind the competition" but "just how many years behind the competition are they?"
Given that they just to always lead the way, could they qualify for this thread? Maybe not a shadow of former selves, but certainly slipping.
Marin is a funny one...
They were one of the most well thought of brands in early nineties.
Then they had the "trailquest" years with Whyte designed stuff. Every single one you saw had a map board attached to the bars (apart from mine).
But thy have definetely reinvented themselves again and have a decent range of not overly flash hardworking spec'd bikes with good progressive geo for not insane money.
Fair comment about Intense, they were quite desirable when they were aluminium but now they're just another boring bit of plastic.
Cannondale is unfair though, they make among the best road and gravel bikes and the MTBs I'm aware of (Jekkyl, Habit) look very good. Seemed like they did more "weird for the sake of it" stuff in the past TBH.
Then they had the “trailquest” years with Whyte designed stuff. Every single one you saw had a map board attached to the bars (apart from mine).
Were those Marins the original "dad bike"?
Cannondale, they make good stuff now, but in their heyday they were lust-worthy.
Charge bikes, they made some great steel hardtails and were a great small brand that made good bikes at a reasonable price, but now have been swallowed up and make lame commuter e-bikes in the US.
GT bikes are ok, but not the what they were.
Kona seem to be struggling nowadays (maybe not financially) when it comes to nice bikes.
Sombrio were never the same after they made the fateful error of listening to specialists in brand expansion. They borrowed big, diversified, lost their core customers and failed.
Marin make some pretty good bikes now. They seem to have focused on making a smaller range of better bikes rather than trying to hit every price point.
I was going to say GT. From the mid 90s of ball burnished, Judy SL/DH, XTR & Syncros equipped dream machines to just a bit normal.
I did see a video recently that was discussing shimano. The debate wasn’t “are they behind the competition” but “just how many years behind the competition are they?”
Who's ahead of them then, with what? (Genuine, non-argumentative, Q)
GT/Kona/Saracen all seemed to falter in the late 90s/Early noughties when they started appearing in Halfords.
trailquest years
Forgot about that.
Sidetrack - could trailquest return in the gravel bike era?
I still have a soft spot for GT...
I did see a video recently that was discussing shimano. The debate wasn’t “are they behind the competition” but “just how many years behind the competition are they?”
Given that they just to always lead the way, could they qualify for this thread? Maybe not a shadow of former selves, but certainly slipping.
I'll not get all tribal, but I don't think there's a shred of undisputable evidence for that.
Who’s ahead of them then, with what? (Genuine, non-argumentative, Q)
That's fine, I posted for discussion rather than argument, I'm not even sure I agree. All my drivetrains are based on shimano.
The video was about SRAM Transmission. Their claim was that even before Transmission, Shimano were behind SRAM AXS and anecdotally I've heard more people grumble about Shimano 12 speed than SRAM 12 speed.
Fair comment about Intense, they were quite desirable when they were aluminium but now they’re just another boring bit of plastic.
There was a rumour that there were even a couple of straight ones.
Cove Bikes
Came here to say that (I have one!)
Back in the day if you wanted a hardcore hardtail, you went for a Santa Cruz Chameleon or a Cove Stiffee.
And yeah, then they just stuck in that rut and never innovated and everything moved on.
Definitely Saracen as well, at least for a time. I had a late 90's titanium Kili Ultra which was amazing.
Sadly I was working in a bike shop that sold the later BSO full suspension Saracen bikes... Took them a while to claw their way back out of that hole.
Cove bikes were a shop, that started making bikes, but eventually went back to being a shop again.
I think there were quite a few smallish companies (like Sombrio) that hired in some ‘specialists’ to advise them on how to make them more successful between about 2010 and 2018 who were advised to borrow big and expand/diversify only to collapse under their own debt. Personally I think some companies should have embraced the fact they were a core brand or small-mid scale and they’d still be going. Did anyone by any Sombrio Road/gravel and XC stuff?
As a diehard Shimano fan, yes Sram are ahead in terms of MTB innovation - being more agile and rider-led.
But in mid-range mechanical shifting (because I don't need or want anything higher), Shimano have caught up with them and smashed them on quality and price.
Just need to get those brakes a bit more reliable.
Did anyone by any Sombrio Road/gravel and XC stuff?
Yeah, I have a beautiful Sombrio merino jersey with three pockets in the back.
Not worn it much, but it should come into its own now I've got into gravel.
But thy have definetely reinvented themselves again and have a decent range of not overly flash hardworking spec’d bikes with good progressive geo for not insane money.
agreed really good bikes, with decent specs, even things like their grips are great https://www.marinbikes-shop.com/products/grip-3?variant=39571011469415¤cy=GBP&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic
I can half get the Kona comments but I still like their bikes, the Sutra is a great bike and I’d love a Honzo ESD at some point.
Are Ellsworth bikes still a thing? Seemed like quite a desirable and progressive brand back in the day but seem have dropped off the radar big time.
Maybe they were just too far ahead of the gravel game?
I’m sure the stuff was good (my Pinner shorts lasted forever)
Mongoose
I’m a shimano guy and always will be. Not the lightest v some of SRAM stuff but works very well. Better longevity and reliability than SRAM will ever be !
Ridgeback back in the 80's made a couple of decent well specked bikes.
Diamondback
I think I read that the UK and Euro Diamondbacks and the US Diamondbacks are completely differnet. By all accounts the US stuff is supposed be alright. Think I saw something on Seth's YouTube channel a while back
Turner.
On a side note, I do think Santa Cruz DH bikes haven't been the same since they dropped the Coke can holster in the swingarm. Big step backwards in my view.
Are Ellsworth bikes still a thing?
Yep. Gone carbon to make them even hideouser
Ridgeback back in the 80’s made a couple of decent well specked bikes.
Back in the early 90s when everyone's top bike seemed to be Tange Prestige and an XT grouoset, Ridgeback had a beautiful brazed offering in the Freewheel catalogue
PACE bikes. Used to be something very special but I dont think they these days unfortunately.
maybe it was just seeing them out on Harden Moor back in the day developing the square tubed bikes...
The only good Raleighs were the RSP's, everything else was just mass market nonsense. Same for Peugeots, I had custody of a UO-8 for a while and it was nothing special (in fact it even had the infamous "death stem" that would crack radially and snap as you were riding along).
Diamondback.
I was finishing a ride on the weekend on my 1995 DBR Axis TT, when I passed someone riding up the road on an alloy DBR road bike.
I know it wasn’t new & have no idea what they make now.
They make GT level bikes but without the aspirational name.
I still have a 1995 gas pipe Traverse in my loft.
Ridgeback back in the 80’s made a couple of decent well specked bikes.
My first MTB was a Ridgeback 601 in 87/88. Was their entry level model and I was really lusting after a Raleigh Maverick, but out of my budget at the time...
My local shop has one of the Raleigh TI team bikes for sale - fully restored.
https://www.justonemorebike.co.uk/bike-shop
Admission time. My name is Simon, and I have never liked GT bikes, they’ve always been fugly.
Erm...Admission time. My name is Simon, too, and I have never liked GT bikes either. How odd. 😂
Raleigh have done quite a few special edition versions of classic 80s/90s bikes over the years eg
https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/road-bikes/ti-raleigh-40th-anniversary-edition-review/
Who’s ahead of them then, with what?
SRAM. I'd say - as former diehard Shimano user that apart from the weightless (ease of) shifting and the shifters themselves, every other part of SRAM is better in terms of how robust it is, how long it lasts, and the ease of installation. The AXS SRAM stuff is so much better than DI2 that they're almost not worth comparing, especially if you're looking at the dropper as well, and for proper bling, is anyone going to spec XTR when for a couple hundred more you could have AXS XX and for the same price; AXS XO1?
I have never liked GT bikes
Same here. And Ridgeback. A year or two back I realized I'd never warmed to a friend's dog purely because the breed name subconsciously made be think of beige banal bikes.
Titus since CC left, it is now just another house brand at Planet-X.
My name isn't Simon, but I was never bothered with the look of the triple triangle GT and the RTS had looks only a mother could love. The LTS and STS were things of beauty though.
Did anyone by any Sombrio Road/gravel and XC stuff?
2 pairs of their flat pedal shoes (one with a flap over the laces for wet weather) - great kit, they just wouldn't die.
I have a Sombrio waterproof commuting jacket with reflective blobs all over it. Fabulous thing.
Dawes and Claud Butler used to be class acts now part of the Tandem Group. Made with cheap components and over-priced too.
The LTS and STS were things of beauty though.
You sure about that?
I was never bothered with the look of the triple triangle GT and the RTS had looks only a mother could love. The LTS and STS were things of beauty though.
The RTS was incredible (for it's day).
At one point it was THE bike to be seen with on short course DH yet could also race XC.
The Zaskar was very much the hardtail version, a true do it all MTB. Could be built up as a lightweight XC race rocket, it'd do DH if you built it burly enough, it could be jumped ...
And, you're wrong, they looked cool!
and the RTS had looks only a mother could love.
A few years ago now, (maybe 2014/15, something like that) I saw a woman cycling along, and I had to do a double take as she was on an RTS1. Caught up with it chained up outside a local supermarket and it was pretty immaculate, the only thing was that it had had an basket zip-tied to the bars 😂, Everything else was as top of the range that 1995 could offer including spotless Judy DH.
Can't believe were 2 pages in & not a soul has mentioned Sick Bicycles...
I think there were quite a few smallish companies (like Sombrio) that hired in some ‘specialists’ to advise them on how to make them more successful between about 2010 and 2018 who were advised to borrow big and expand/diversify only to collapse under their own debt. Personally I think some companies should have embraced the fact they were a core brand or small-mid scale and they’d still be going.
Agreed. The market has grown overall since mid 80s but not enough to support what a VC would call good growth figures for all the brands involved, it's a saturated or post-mature market. Add to that the way that brands can pop up to fill a niche and either the niche fades away or mainstream brands get on the bandwagon and it's more a case of brands who aren't a shadow of former selves standing out?
People knock Orange sometimes but they've stuck around by not being about growth - as you say, embracing where they are and sticking to it. I like that in a brand, far more than the continual growth aims and ongoing rounds of ownership etc.
Most of the British brands that weren't Raleigh ended up under Holdsworth. Falcon, Calud Buttler, etc. Now mostly Argos bikes 9appart from Holdsworth themselves who are now Planet-X's slightly premium paint job.
Which is a bit of a shame as I'd have thought gravel bikes would have been a good way to re-launch some of those brands, selling road bikes to MTB'ers who aren't really interested in Pinarello/Colnago/etc.
Can’t believe were 2 pages in & not a soul has mentioned Sick Bicycles…
There’s not even a shadow left of them.
MBUK did a competition a while back and the prize was an updated Zaskar, made to look as retro as possible. It's a thing of joy.
Compared with
