I started on a new commuting route since moving house a few weeks ago and I've been genuinely amazed by the number of cyclists on the road who can't tell the difference between red and green lights. On Tuesday morning as I waited at the junction of Byres Road and University Avenue in Glasgow for the lights to change, I counted five riders jump the lights either when the pedestrain crossing light had changed to green or simply went through the lights at red into oncoming traffic. Riding home down Bath Street in the evening, I'm regularly passed by riders who again feel that it is ok to jump the lights irrespective of whether there are cars coming in from side roads or pedestrians crossing the road.
Am I missing something here? Is it really such a big surprise when we as a group get hassle from car drivers who get irritated by this behaviour? Or pedestrians who have a cyclist pass in front of them at speed when they mistakenly think it is safe to cross the road. Does anyone else get annoyed by this or do you blindly accept that it is ok to adhere to the bits of the Highway Code that you like but ignore the inconvenient bits that mean your journey to work or college might take a little bit longer?
I can almost feel myself becoming a Daily Mail reader at this rate! 😆
As for ejits riding at night without lights and the fashion for riding a fixie sans brakes, they are definitely up there on the chopper scale too.
😯
Cheers
Sanny
I wait at the lights, then catch them up & pass them, which does annoy them when I'm on my Brompton!
it's the same in oxford. it's no wonder joe public thinks we're all idiots.
sadly all it means is that they then treat us as such, with a complete lack of respect or consideration, while driving around in over a tonne of metal. now who's worse off?
Ah Cheesyfeet, there is indeed something joyous about that feeling as you pass them!
I'd be interested to hear how we as a group of cyclists should be entitled to demand respect on the roads when the behaviour of some (not all) actively discourages it. If respect is earned then what are we doing to earn it? Has anyone ever pointed out to another cyclist that jumping lights etc is an invitation for hassle for the rest of us. I have to admit to having done it a couple of times and it's fair to say that my use of language was both creative and a bit fruity! I think I may have even invented a new sweary word! 😀
There are plenty of pedestrians crossing the road away from crossings and motorists breaking the speed limit. We get hassle from motorists because they believe that their licence gives them a right to the road to which we are not entitled. *&^% them!
i agree with you sanny.
no brakes is a ridiculous idea. they dont slow you down, they are a safety device.
NO fixe rider, you cannot stop as quickly as i can, no matter how hard you skid, grow up
riders with no brakes are the same as riders who dont wear a helmet cause its "not cool" in my mind.
how can anyone expect vehicles on the road to respect us, as a group, when we dont respect the rules that are thier for the safety of other people.
hang em, the lot of em,
can we put the severed heads of red light runners on skewers on top of traffic lights as a warning to others?
I don't see that many cyclists jump red lights, could be because my commute is mostly on a cycle path though I suppose.
Certainly see way more cars jump red lights.
I'm retarded. Red lights? What are they for then? They don't apply when I'm cycling. Why? Bacause I can and it annoys people who KNOW I'm getting away with it. Don't like it? Blow it out your ass. 😈
I don't jump lights, but I think it's several orders of magnitude less serious than poor driver behaviour. As the road accident statistics prove.
mtbfix
Good point, well made but surely if we don't get our house in order, we continue to perpetrate the notion that all cyclists are d*ckheads who have no regard for themselves or others?
Respect is not something we are entitled to. We only get it when we earn it. There will of course always be tossers who live in their own world but that doesn't mean our behaviour should be equally as poor, does it?
As for no brakes, the prize for a complete lack of common sense has got to go to the no brakes / no back pedal brake BMXer I saw recently in the West End. Well done there, fella! That must surely get an honorable Darwin Award?
Peter
If the special helmet fits..... 😉
Ha! Ha!
Cheers
Sanny
I commute in Glasgow city centre and often anticipate green lights (purely because I'm familiar enough with the sequences on my route) by a second or two, and will occasionally turn right at a busy crossroads just as the green man goes to red, a few seconds ahead of the green light, all provided there are no pedestrians.
I certainly won't go through a red light into a junction if there's traffic at green from another direction, that's just common sense.
However, I wouldn't point out someone else's shitty cycling because I'm not the boss of cycling and don't want to come off as sanctimonious, which I think you would no matter how you phrased it. People on bikes are not a single homogenous group and I don't think we should be considered as such.
You can expect or demand 'respect' from drivers however much you like, all I think we're entitled to is safety and care all round and a cyclist running a red light (however stupidly) is no less entitled to this. Consideration on the road from drivers is not subject to bartering.
what kind of childish attitude is
"im not following the rules, because hes not following them either"
"miss, miss, he pulled my haiiirrr"
Sanny, I feel that by choosing to deliver your message on this forum, you are preaching to a very small, very select group of cyclists, many of whom are responsible, and the rest of whom won't give a sh!t regardless (I veer between the two categories depending on how pointless said traffic control measures are when applied to a bloke on a bicycle).
What you're ignoring is that measures to control cars are there for very specific reasons - i.e. that when people are inside a two-tonne metal box, they tend not to be that aware of what's going on around them, and they also have the potential to cause death and destruction with little to no harm to themselves.
Instead of bending the knee to people who apply a simplistic, absolutist argument to all vehicles, regardless of whether they have 250 hp or 0.5, how about looking at ways in which responsible cycling can be promoted, and maybe even lure people out of their cars with the promise of journeys that are as free as possible from pointless interference, and as a consequence, nearly as quick and effortless?
Traffic lights were designed to control 1 tonne lumps of metal, which by their nature demand rigidly defined safety procedures. That's why we have driving tests.
If were walking along a road, do you stop for red lights before passing on? No. So what if you were riding a scateboard or a scooter - what then?
I don't do it with complete impunity, and stop more often than not, but if it's safer to do so, or it compromises no one else, then I'll jump lights.
I see it no differently to walking across a road on a standing red man.
- I suppose Sanny, you always wait for the little green man before you cross the road?
:oops:I'll go through red lights (slowly) after checking nothing's coming and I'm not going to alarm any pedestrians. It gets me where I'm going faster. If someone wants to wait at the red light then catch and pass me, fine, I'm probably pottering along trying not to get sweaty. Doesn't mean I want to waste time at red lights only to have a swathe of inconsiderate drivers up my arse as soon as they go green.
And anyway, everyone runs red lights and goes on the kerb sometimes (even you, Sanny), it's how you do it that's the real issue here. Not that that makes any difference to the Daily Mail Bikes Are Evil campaign.
I agree that running lights at speed on a brakeless fixie annoys people and puts yourself and others at unnecessary risk, but that's obvious, and there's other far greater risks out there.
Also, I've never once driven or cycled along great western road without the new speed sign not going above 30, a tonne and a half of metal is far more dangerous than any bike.
you are preaching to a very small, very select group of cyclists, many of whom are responsible, and the rest of whom won't give a sh!t regardless (I veer between the two categories depending on how pointless said traffic control measures are when applied to a bloke on a bicycle).
LOL!
😀
Theres bound to be conflict when the number of cyclists increases so quickly, especially in london. I think its just too many people who've bought bikes and haven't ridden one since being a child. They just take the quickest most obvious route without any thought, be it on the pavement, through parks, through red lights etc..
Liverpool St station is particularly bad, the police patrol there regularly.
i don't think the problem will get solved until the roads are modified with more obvious cycle friendly measures that aren't purely aimed at people who cycle at 5-10mph and like stopping every time theres a side-road or junction
2tyred
While we may not like to be considered as a single group, I think it is fair to say that broadly we are. If we take those who cycle out of the equation, what do you think the general impression of cycling and cyclists is by other road users? Lack of common sense, don't have bells, ignore the Highway Code? The problem with negative perceptions and prejudices about any road user is that it only takes a few of us to perpetuate them. The majority of cyclists on the road may indeed show good judgement and common sense but in my experience of commuting of late, I would reckon that between a third and a half of the cyclists I see don't. That's pretty poor by anyones book.
Whether we like it or not, the actions of individuals can have either a positive or negative effect on other road users perceptions. We may think that consideration from other users is something we are entitled to yet if we don't show it ourselves, why should anyone else? The law is there to protect all road users, not just cyclists but if we chose to pick and chose, should we be surprised if other user groups do the same and regard us with disinterest or worse, don't look out for us as a vulnerable user group?
If I see a cyclist riding at night without lights on the road, I immediately think "Tw*t!" From there, it is a very small step for the public to lose any sympathy for them should they be involved in a Road Traffic Accident with another vehicle. "Sorry mate, I didn't see you" would be the likely response. That may not seem fair but if we chose to ignore common sense, where does it lead us?
Cheers
Sanny
The ones I see who run red lights are invariably on posh, expensive bikes [i]I'm an experienced cyclist and I know better[/i] ****ers
All pedestrians are jaywalking retards who dash across in front of bikes, never look, never wait for the green man and kill dogs.
They should obviously all be banned, be fined by more police, made to take their walking proficiency test and take out walking licenses.
I must admit to being pretty peed off whilst in Glasgow recently. I was having my morning tab and coffee outside my hotel and watched several cyclists run a pedestrian crossing, weaving in and out of people crossing the road.
The peds were crossing on a green man and had to stop to allow riders to pass - just not on - simple as.
The ones I see running red lights in the worst possible way (bimbling slowly through junctions while paying no attention to the roads either side of them) are usually riding creaky Apollo full sussers with drivetrains that sound like a herd of mice, and a tin of Special Brew tucked in the bottle cage.
I'm sure they're all reading this thread avidly. 😉
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8296971.stm ]Jumping red lights[/url] according to the BBC might help save your life?
From the article.
[i]This means that if the lorry turns left, the driver cannot see the cyclist as the vehicle cuts across the bike's path.
The report said that male cyclists are generally quicker getting away from a red light - or, indeed, jump red lights - and so get out of the danger area. [/i]
Traffic lights are great (Gets breath back...)
I just jump off the bike and jog with the bike till I'm on the safe and legal side etc if I'm late but 99% I'll wait.
Had a van driver open his window at lights and ask me how come I was going through the red lights. I said I wasn't colour blind-ironic really to the title of the OP 😈
Yeah, or if it's indicating left just stay behind it.
I commute to Glasgow too, through newton mearns and shawlands. I don't see that many other bike commuters but of the ones I do see at least 75% jump red lights. I don't get it, but I do get great joy at passing them. It really doesn't do us any favours.
For all those who say that 'but car drivers break the rules all the time', it doesn't make it right that cyclist do the same.
In my experience its not folk on 'posh, expensive bikes', whatever a posh bike is but slow folk who need to make up all the time they can.
I just find it a bit childish really.
The ones I see who run red lights are invariably on posh, expensive bikes I'm an experienced cyclist and I know better ****ers
CONGRATULATIONS!
You have won the STW award for typing the biggest load of drivel this year!
Respect is not something we are entitled to. We only get it when we earn it.
I don't need respect, just tolerance. A driver's need to get somewhere a few seconds earlier doesn't trump my right to live. Cyclists are not a homogeneous group, each one is different.
I was down in London earlier in the week and it seems to be pretty much mandatory to jump the lights there. I didn't see one cyclist actually stop for a red light and most of them didn't even seem to look before they wandered through.
“Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.” Douglas Bader
i routinely distribute my opinion of others' RLJing (from the bike or the car) in a polite but sometimes rather loud fashion.
i wish more people did this - it might change things a little
Cheers Sanny, I completely agree with the point you're making - the consequences of stupidity aren't always limited to the rider displaying it - but I don't think we should accept this being the case.
I certainly don't think of all motorists as a single group but they've more in common with each other than all cyclists, as in addition to having acquired a car, they've also all (hopefully) passed a driving test and paid the required taxes to use their vehicles on the road. Other than having acquired a bike and the ability to ride it, what do you have in common with any other cyclist? This notion that we're a single group is a dangerous one, IMO as it allows the perception of one to cloud the perception of another.
Irrespective of this, a person on a bike deserves no less care and attention on the road from a motorist, regardless of his or her attitude to traffic lights. Two wrongs don't make a right.
(fixed gear rider here, but with you on the brakeless fixies, by the way!)
CONGRATULATIONS!You have won the STW award for typing the biggest load of drivel this year!
Hit a nerve did he PP? ;0)
Jumping redlights is good for bike safety?! Just ripped this out of a BBC article about Bike fatalities and women riders.
In 2007, an internal report for Transport for London concluded women cyclists are far more likely to be killed by lorries because, unlike men, they tend to obey red lights and wait at junctions in the driver's blind spot.
This means that if the lorry turns left, the driver cannot see the cyclist as the vehicle cuts across the bike's path.
The report said that male cyclists are generally quicker getting away from a red light - or, indeed, jump red lights - and so get out of the danger area.
As for no brakes, the prize for a complete lack of common sense has got to go to the no brakes / no back pedal brake BMXer I saw recently in the West End. Well done there, fella! That must surely get an honorable Darwin Award?
Riding brakeless is quite common in BMX circles these days and you can buy brakeless frames from a number of major manufacturers, or even a [url= http://www.groovebmx.co.uk/shop.php/dirt-/-street-/-park-bikes/fbm/fbm-maruader-brakeless-09-black/p_594.html ]complete brakeless bike[/url].
Of course, everyone who slings a leg over one is dead seconds later, but the powerful BMX industry just hushes that part up. 😉
zaskar - MemberTraffic lights are great (Gets breath back...)
I just jump off the bike and jog with the bike till I'm on the safe and legal side etc if I'm late but 99% I'll wait.
Had a van driver open his window at lights and ask me how come I was going through the red lights. I said I wasn't colour blind-ironic really to the title of the OP
I meant how I was wasn't going through the lights! I was wasn't going through the lights!
Not going through them! I try to be an ambassador when cycling anyway.
I get other cyclists telling me off for my bell use for walkers.
Doh!
Always wait the red light as it's legal and not worth getting runover!
I'm always being overtaken by cyclists at lights who jump them. Catch them usually.
Sorry for the typo in case people got miffed!
I agree, they have already killed four dogs this morning, allegedly.
On the other hand are they showing how the law is unnecessary in this instance and needs to be changed?
For example, Boris Johnson has already announced how London cyclists are allowed to turn left on a red light provided it's safe to do so and there is another change in the offing whereby cyclists will be allowed to cycle 'the wrong way' down (or up) one way streets.
Now why have they agreed to those changes and who drove (pun unintended) that law forward? Was it those cyclists who were sitting waiting at red lights or was it the jumpers?
GEE THANKS PP!
What a cock
I used to jump the reds without fail, not in an eyes closed-go kinda way but more stop look and go, until i got busted by the cops. Got a ticking off and it made me feel like a 12 year old, but it did make me change my ways. Can't say i'm a perfect saint but i do stop a reds 95% of the time but there are some quiet junctions that i will go through on the green man.
Sanny - I'm also a Glasgow commuter your point about fixies / SS is spot on there does seem to more and more of them about, quite a few are bike couriers but most seem to be skinny jean, beani wearing studensts out posing on thier latest life style accessory. IMO of course.
[i] PeterPoddy - Member
...
CONGRATULATIONS!
You have won the STW award for typing the biggest load of drivel this year! [/i]
I love it when the previous holder of an award or record is the first to congratulate the new holder. Like when Sir Gary Sobers walked onto the pitch to congratulate Brian Lara. Makes me feel all warm inside.
I don't often comment on threads with such stong opinions, however i feel compelled to say some thing about PETERPODY's comments.
I agree with you.
Also i have to add that my morning commute usually involves some car driving prick doing something stupid/dangerous. EVERY DAY SOME **** DOES SOME THING. When i have a morning commute that does not i will start treating car drivers like humans.
If the way i ride my bike or my opinions/spelling/grammer etc etc etc offend, I'll live with it, but feel free to amuse me anyway.
I don't jump red lights, ever. I've been chased, attempted to be run down, screamed at, beeped at waaaay too much round here. I don't want to antagonise anybody driving a lethal weapon at all. However, if anyone gets too close to me, cuts me up, or in any other way threatens my safety I will fight back. Kick car, slap it (works very well as it makes a huge sound in the car itself). Don't care if it gets scratched as long as I get back home at night safely.
If you obey the rules in your car then there is no excuse IMHO why you shouldn't do the same on your bike.
Hmmm. robdob, you point out that you don't want to antagonise car drivers then highlight how you do exactly that when you 'fight back'.
Not disagreeing with you just pointing out the inconsistency
It's a bit harsh to say I'm inconsistent. Antagonising drivers by blatantly disregarding the rules is a long way from defending yourself and making your presence known quickly and effectively when you're about to be squished by a car. (EDIT changed truck to car as there'd be no point in kicking a truck, I doubt they'd notice!!!!)
As for ejits riding at night without lights and the fashion for riding a fixie sans brakes, they are definitely up there on the chopper scale too.
Leaving Mugdock and heading down through Milngavie last night at about 10pm, as you approach the section just after the mini roundabout where it changes to from a 30 to a 40 then onto a 50 I encountered a teenage boy on the road, dressed in black, no lights, no reflectors and an ipod on.
At least he had a helmet on 🙄
I encountered a teenage boy on the road, dressed in black, no lights, no reflectors and an ipod on.
so was he just sitting there or did he have a bike ?...... 😆
At least he had a helmet on
Well he'd be perfectly fine, yes? 😉
ninja?
😆
Aye, on a bike.
And for those that condone RLJ'ing, 6:30am this morning I'm out walking the dog and I'm here:
All lights are at red and the green man is illuminated. A cyclist is coming up Kilmarnock Road at a fair speed and blasts through the green man. Meanwhile Mr Mercedes sitting at the junction on the right decides he's not waiting for the lights and he goes through the green man too.
They're both on a collision course but see each other in the nick of time and take evasive action.
FWIW if they'd collided they'd both have got what they deserved!
I'm also a glasgow commuter, it does seem pretty hairy here. Strangely enough, it's also remarkable how little respect and tolerance cyclists get from drivers here.
they've more in common with each other than all cyclists
How so? The vehicle they drive does not in any way make them similar.
What about cyclists on pavements?
I appreciate that in city areas with lots of pedestrians its a ridiculous notion, but how about on a fairly rural road, 50mph speed limit, cars doing that upwards, and theres a pavement, would you use it?
I did so tonight, and a woman reversed out of her drive at speed across the pavement without looking, and then looked indignant as I shouted oi. She then tried to blag that it was my fault for being on the pavement (if i were a pedestrian she still would have knocked me over, she moved out that quickly).
She swore at me and then wound her window back up quickly, trying to hide so I went back up to her to discuss the point, and she would not acknowledge that her driving was inappropriate, yet I acknowlegded that my cycling is not ideal, its a damn sight safer than me cycling on the road.
Drivers tend not to acknoledge their mistakes, there are very few accidents caused by something other than a driver or cyclist error. People don't learn from this, which is why i think its important to confront them and reason (not get angry, except if they do first!! :-)), otherwise standards will not improve, as they continue oblivious to their mistakes.
Having said that, I will still cycle on that pavement, I don't fancy becoming a feature in the hedgerow!
Motivforz, I hate to break this to you, but that's a textbook illustration of why you shouldn't cycle on the pavement. Use the road, don't cling to the edges, force people to notice you're there and to slow down if necessary, and you will be fine.
I agree, in most circumstances, but this road in particular is full of dips, blind hills, blind corners etc and a lot of drivers go along at a speed such that they could not brake in time if something was staionary or slow moving (as I am up hills!) even with 3 flashing red lights on my arse.
In urban areas riding defensively is king, saved me from plenty of close calls, but rural areas requires a different tact, often due to inexperience or naive drivers.
What about cyclists on pavements?
Two shots to the back of the head would be my proposed solution
Drivers tend not to acknoledge their mistakes
Name a group of people that does!
I'm also a glasgow commuter, it does seem pretty hairy here. Strangely enough, it's also remarkable how little respect and tolerance cyclists get from drivers here.
Glasgow's city centre is noticeably less pleasant to cycle in than Edinburgh's - I put it down to weight of numbers, seems to be more cyclists on the road in Embra.
How so? The vehicle they drive does not in any way make them similar.
They've all had lessons, passed a test, require insurance, pay road tax and fuel etc. This means a motorist has more in common with all other motorists, than a cyclist does with all other cyclists, so lend themselves better to being considered as a single homogenous group, despite that being a futile notion in either case, that's the point I was trying to make (albeit in a roundabout way!)
A simple solution.
Anyone caught RLJ'ing has their bike taken off them and crushed 8)
I see far more car drivers going through on amber (which means stop) and red than I do cyclists.
running red lights is just as bad as any car driver who desperately feels like they have to be in front of you. It'll save you a whole minute if you do it. I really can't be arsed with the hassle so I'll just wait. I think cyclists who run red lights are stupid in the same way I think idiots in cars who endanger people's lives are stupid. Plus as originally pointed out, it only reinforces people's opnion that all cyclists are idiots and if we're going to get treated like equals, or with tolerence as simon says, this sort of behaviour needs to stop. It's no good saying 'well car drivers do a lot worse', at the moment the driver is king and we're trying to change that, bad behaviour will only slow the process down.
Hit a nerve did he PP? ;0)
No, but it seems I have.....
😈
People on all sorts of bikes jump lights. Type of bike has nothing to do with it at all.
I love winding people up on the RLJ threads. Like shooting fish in a barrel.....
🙂
Like shooting fish in a barrel.....
You know that by doing so there is less to eat... 😉
I see far more car drivers going through on amber (which means stop) and red than I do cyclists.
You MUST stop behind the white ‘Stop’ line across your side of the road unless the light is green. If the amber light appears you may go on only if you have already crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to stop might cause a collision.
BoardinBob, I think Miketually is referring to the [url=
Gamblers[/url] out there.
Now that my commute has changed, I'm using far busier roads and encountering more problems than I did when it was a nice quiet 8 miles.
I often think you just can't win. You jump the lights then you (and every other cyclist) is a menace, you sit and wiat in the ASL and get beeped at for "holding up the traffic".
Use a cycle path and (becasue of the design of them) you end up being thrown into the road at a junction. Don't use a cycle path and cars beep at you for not using it.
I'll jump lights if it's safe to do so but it's rare, I'll usually only do it when the roads are very quiet (don't want to give a whole queue of car drivers any further excuse!). Other than that I ride reasonably assertively, thank courteous drivers with a wave or nod and generally ignore any abuse or hoots, it's simply not worth the hassle of pointing out to the driver that he/she is an incompetent moron.
While commuting, I reckon I see 10 bad cycling incident for every one bad driving incident. A large percentage are women on shonky old bikes. Most guys on decent bikes seem to be able to stay within the law. As was said previously, I seem to end up passing some of the RLJs when they've passed me at standstill. If they're in such a hurry, why don't they just [b]PEDAL FASTER![/b]
The best I've seen so far: me waiting at red traffic light, while two other blokes on a bike pass me through, one on the pavement and the other one on the same road as me.But the best bit is when the cyclist on the pavement decide to rejoin the road because no traffic (traffic light is red, remember) and hit full front the cyclist on the road who just went through the red light. He make me laugh rather than worrying about the 2 blokes on the floor.
Gilles
Did you not piss yourself laughing when you saw that? 😆
Re the comments about fixies without brakes. When did shitty old beater bike fixies become the bike of choice for commuting round town? It's great to see more folk out on bikes but why brakeless fixies? Are they just the ride du jour? It makes me laugh when you I see someone try to slow down on one of the hills in the city centre on a fixie with 12 inch wide flat bars in the rain. It reminds me of the scene in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey when Death passes a guy lighting up a fag and says "See you real soon". 😀
As for trucks and buses, if they can't see you in their mirror or in front of them, don't expect them to look out for you as they turn left. It's probably best to assume that they don't know you're there and ride accordingly.
Peregrine
Are you wanting amused or abused? Hard to tell from your post! Could be quite a difference between the two! 😉
I don't do it with complete impunity, and stop more often than not, but if it's safer to do so, or it compromises no one else, then I'll jump lights.
don't reckon i could sum up my own position better than that, really. i don't stop at red lights if there's a safe enough gap. that's it.
samuri - Memberrunning red lights is just as bad as any car driver who desperately feels like they have to be in front of you. It'll save you a whole minute if you do it.
it's not just the time - slowing down, stopping and then getting back up to speed again's knackering 😆
i read somewhere that every time you do it is the equivalent energy of riding an extra 50m, or something like that. i hate slowing down!
Does anyone here seriously believe that if all cyclists strictly obeyed the Highway Code, that we would somehow get all motorists' respect? I don't condone RLJ or pavement riding, but lets get some perspective - we're to a very large extent the victims and not the perpetrators.
You go down that route flatboy and car drivers will go through red lights claiming 'but it's eco' !
Ransos
What I would dearly like to see is an element of the driving test that encompasses theory and practical on riding a bike in traffic. It would certainly be a start to make drivers aware of how vulnerable cyclists are and that passing without leaving space isn't the wisest thing to do.
ooOOoo - MemberYou go down that route flatboy and car drivers will go through red lights claiming 'but it's eco' !
haha, that's true - "must keep going, we can never stoooooooooppppppp..."