Yeah, Honda tried fitting a cassette and mech at the front and didn't really get anywhere with it.
I think the main argument against them is how much lighter they make your wallet.
Upfront costs are high, but cheaper than a lot of derailleur systems over their lifetime. And given that even a GX mech is £400 even the upfront cost differences are rapidly shrinking.
given that even a GX mech is £400 even the upfront cost differences are rapidly shrinking.
You're comparing an elite level derailleur system with a gearbox. Even a Deore level derailleur is relatively high-end, many more bikes ship with Tourney or Altus level gear than Deore, let alone XT and XTR.
Shimano Tourney FT35 7 Speed Rear Derailleur RRP £12.99 £3.49
Shimano Altus M2000 9 Speed Rear Derailleur RRP £33.99 £14.99
Shimano Deore M4120 Shadow MTB Rear Derailleur RRP £41.99 £30.99
SRAM GX Type 2.1 10sp Rear Derailleur RRP £71.00 £49.99 - £55.00
The only practical place to put the derailleur is where it is now.
Tell that to Lal, Williams Racing Products, and Honda.
None of which are commercially successful but as I said, mountain bikers ain't going to buy anything that doesn't look like a mountain bike.
None of which are commercially successful
Those are niche products. They aren't commercially successful because they are extremely expensive and not intended to be mass-market products. Yes, you can make a frame mounted gearbox with a derailleur inside, but it will be much more expensive than a regular derailleur system.
They aren’t commercially successful because they are extremely expensive and not intended to be mass-market products. Yes, you can make a frame mounted gearbox with a derailleur inside, but it will be much more expensive than a regular derailleur system.
Yes, but it wouldn't expensive be if Trek, Spesh, or Giant did it. Because it would benefit from the same economies of scale as the current derailleur set up does.
But they won't. Because they wouldn't sell. Because mountain bikers don't buy mountain bikes that don't look basically the same as what they already have even if it shares no standards with what they already have.
My shifter, cassette, cassette, chain and chainring were under £100 in total, and I haven’t touched them since fitting them three years ago (apart from the occasional clean). Getting a gearbox down to that price while keeping that kind of durability is a big ask. It’s not about “looking like a mountain bike”, people would lap up bikes fitted with a realistically priced, efficient, proven and easily maintained gearbox… the barrier isn’t “fashion”.
Where fashion does come into is “number of speeds” where “one more” is always the aim. We just need range for messing about off road. Hopefully this will change and other considerations come back to the fore in future. Will people see “13” as jumping the shark? Arguably many of the current “standards” only came about to allow for another cog or two, would another round of non backwards compatible standards changes for 13 speed be rejected by riders?
My shifter, cassette, cassette, chain and chainring were under £100 in total
Boost spacing, XD freehub, 12 speed?
Just because things look the same doesn't mean they are the same.
@thols2, it was you that said:
I think the main argument against them is how much lighter they make your wallet. Racers won’t use them because they are less efficient.
and now you are quoting the price of a Tourney mech?!
If you want to make that argument, then we can throw £80 Sturmey Archer hubs into the mix
Edit: this is derailing the thread -- I'm out of this one
Boost spacing, XD freehub, 12 speed?
Boost (to fit the frame), HG freehub (to fit the wheels), 10 speed.
I’ve ridden 12 speed a lot on work bikes. It’s sorted. But I don’t have it on my own bike as the trade offs aren’t worth my while. Gearboxes are likely to have fewer gears if they are to become mainstream and hit the right price point and be (virtually) maintenance free. The “need” for more and more gears is one of the things keeping gearboxes in their current niche.
Rohloff have as much range as any MTB setup - with better spaced gears. there is no need for more gears or more range
alfines are cheaper than most derailleurs
I don’t have it on my own bike as the trade offs aren’t worth my while.
No, you don't run 12 speed XD freehubs for <£100 because it's not possible to run 12 speed XD freehubs for <£100.
The point is that just because 135mm 10 speed looks the same as 148mm 12 speed doesn't mean they are the same thing. There is no part that can be transferred between bikes that run these entirely different set ups.
So despite the fact that wheels, frames, and freehubs have all completely changed, we are still left with basically the same as what we had before instead of a solution that would remove the single biggest weak point and suspension design limiter on the entire bike.
And what we are talking about is not a 'gearbox' a la Pinion et al, we are talking about the same components being shifted to a different part of the bike.
It would probably take a redesign of the frame, derailleur, and cassette, but guess what. We have already redesigned all those things for entirely marginal (and in some cases no) benefits.
I have no idea what your point is. Feels like I’ve walked in on argument that’s feeding on itself. My point was simply that it is not “the look” of gearbox bikes that is holding them back, it is other considerations. I agree with you that small incremental changes have reduced backwards compatibility for little gain. Real gain, but not a huge shift that’s necessarily worth the trade off for everyone.
alfines are cheaper than most derailleurs
Most derailleurs, by number of units sold, will be low-end stuff like Tourney and Altus. You're not going to build any sort of gearbox as cheaply as a Tourney derailleur.
This seems relevant here (doesn't really change the unsprung mass thing though)
https://www.nicolai-bicycles.com/Nucleon-16-Landing-EN
You’re not going to build any sort of gearbox as cheaply as a Tourney derailleur.
The same could have been said about 27.5.
27.5 was kicking around for years before one year it was decided it was the next big thing. It was a niche product so you paid niche prices. Once the big boys decided that was the way to go it was mainstream and you paid mainstream prices.
If Trek, Spesh, or Giant adopt Lal or Williams Racing Products (or there own homegrown solution) then that will be mainstream and we'll pay mainstream prices.
Fundamentally the components are the same, it's just the location that is changed.
Fundamentally the components are the same, it’s just the location that is changed.
Not with a gearbox. You need much more precision machining to build a gearbox compared with a derailleur system so it will always be more expensive. You won't get economies of scale because you need expensive factory equipment to do the machining work. A 26, 27.5, and 29er wheel are just the same basic design enlarged slightly.
Not with a gearbox.
I specifically said which solutions I was talking about (Lal, WRP, and Honda) and which ones I wasn't talking about (Pinion, etc).
A derailleur in a box is still going to be more expensive than a basic derailleur. You need to build the box, plus there will need to be two shafts in the box, an input and output shaft. Those both need to be sealed and the box has to be built precisely enough to be sealed, but also light weight so you're looking at a couple of large aluminium castings which need to be machined. Plus bearings and seals. A derailleur in a box will be bulkier than a planetary gear system so it's going to take a lot of space within the frame, which is going to require compromises with other aspects of your frame design and suspension. These things have been around for many years and all the bike companies know about them. If they thought they could build a better bike profitably, they would be doing it.
There's a lot of what you said that was wrong as can be seen by looking at the existing solutions. However, this is the main problem.
If they thought they could build a better bike profitably, they would be doing it.
No they wouldn't because people wouldn't buy them.
Because they don't look like what exists already.
If they thought they could build a better bike profitably, they would be doing it.
And profitability is higher for a system with a greater need for frequent replacement of wear-and-tear parts
No they wouldn’t because people wouldn’t buy them.
Because they don’t look like what exists already.
Do you have any evidence for this, or are you just pulling guesses out of thin air?
Because they don’t look like what exists already.
Really do not agree. Nothing else to add.
RamseyNeilFree Member
A US pint is 16 fl oz and not the 20 fl oz however and I don’t know how Stans get away with selling their sealant in US pints in the UK
It's worse than that, US fluid ounces are also a slightly different size to Imperial fluid ounces, so a US pint is not actually four fifths of an Imperial pint. It's actually a bit larger, 473ml rather than the 454ml you might expect.
Really? I never ever heard anyone call it a pint
I've had a metric pint this weekend. Even listed as such on the chalkboard (some places do 400 or 600ml too).
After all, they got the metric system there, they wouldn’t know what the heck a quarter pounder is.
We can order a quarter pounder with fries as well (i don't though, haven't been in one for a decade and a half). Even non-macdonalds places have 4oz/6oz/8oz burgers.
We're very metric.
Do you have any evidence for this, or are you just pulling guesses out of thin air?
As you said, if the big boys thought people would buy it they would have done it already.
They've had time to create multiple axle standards, multiple freehub standards, multiple BB standards, etc but they haven't had time to fix one of the few areas on the bike that genuinely needs to be fixed?
And it's not even like it's impossible to do as Lal (and Honda) have shown. Not to mention that Italian guy's solution that was made in the late 90s (there are probably others out there).
The point is that just because 135mm 10 speed looks the same as 148mm 12 speed doesn’t mean they are the same thing. There is no part that can be transferred between bikes that run these entirely different set ups.
What? You can get 12s HG cassettes, at worst that's a freehub swap.
it’s not even like it’s impossible to do as Lal (and Honda) have shown.
The Honda DH bikes were hand-built prototypes intended for their factory team. They did lease a few to other riders apparently, but the lease cost a fortune and Honda supplied a mechanic. The customer was not allowed to work on the bike or keep it, they were only allowed to ride it at races. The gearboxes were removed from the bikes every day and kept in the mechanics' hotel rooms. It was a DH bike so it did not have the gear range you'd need for an enduro bike that must be ridden uphill. Fitting a 10-50 tooth 12 speed cassette into a frame mounted gearbox is a much bigger challenge than the 7-speed road cassette that the Honda gearbox used. The Honda shows why derailleurs in a cage aren't common - they're expensive and difficult to package into a frame. They have benefits for niche uses like DH racing but they aren't going to replace regular derailleurs.
What? You can get 12s HG cassettes, at worst that’s a freehub swap.
Hmm, I guess you're right. If you wanted to you could fit a 12 speed XD cassette to your 135mm bike (after buying a new freehub).
I'm not sure if you were trying to make a point or just score a point there?
My point still stands that if you have a 135mm HG cassetted bike it will have no compatible parts with a 2023 mountain bike (except the cassette, if you bought a new freehub).
And yet it looks exactly the same and performs pretty much exactly the same. Despite every part now being completely different and incompatible. And no guarantees it's not going to change again in a couple of years time.
And through all this the biggest problem remains completely unsolved.
The Honda DH bikes were hand-built prototypes intended for their factory team.
Yes, going straight to production without making and testing any prototypes is an unusual strategy so it's not really surprising Honda would do so, is it?
But yeah, we have no idea what Honda's plans were. It's 0ne of those things that's shrouded in mystery and rumour and probably always will be.
Your argument is basically, it would only be suitable for DH bikes. Kind of like suspension, I guess.
And you're still ignoring Lal (and WRP) even though you can buy a Lal drive bike right now (at a niche and decidedly non-mainstream price).
Hmm, I guess you’re right. If you wanted to you could fit a 12 speed XD cassette to your 135mm bike (after buying a new freehub).
I’m not sure if you were trying to make a point or just score a point there?
My point still stands that if you have a 135mm HG cassetted bike it will have no compatible parts with a 2023 mountain bike (except the cassette, if you bought a new freehub).
No it doesnt. You can buy a 12 speed HG cassette from SRAM, Sunrace or any other far east manufacturers you could name bar Shimano. I could quite happily fit 12 speed to my 135mm 20 year old Trailstar for the cost of the drivetrain and nothing else. There is nothing about 12 speed that is particularly special barring the cassette if you want one in XD or Microspline flavour. Same with 11 speed which is why the "you needed boost to fit 11 speed" argument was rubbish as well.
Ah, so you were trying to score a point rather than make a point.
Just for reference, I've got a 2008 SC Nomad and a 2017 Giant Trance. Now, I could take the cassette directly from the Giant and put it on the SC. It wouldn't so anything once it was there (Direct mount derailleur) but it would sit there on the wheel.
So you are absolutely right.
What? No, you're claiming you can't fit 12 speed to a 135mm bike because "if you have a 135mm HG cassetted bike it will have no compatible parts with a 2023 mountain bike ", I'm simply refuting that.
Go and look at Deore 12s, is that direct mount? Are the shifters ONLY iSpecwhatever? Can you get a 12 speed cassette in HG?
It's not about point scoring, it's about you saying something provably false. I was wrong about 148/150, you're wrong about this. It happens, don't be so precious.
What? No, you’re claiming you can’t fit 12 speed to a 135mm bike because “if you have a 135mm HG cassetted bike it will have no compatible parts with a 2023 mountain bike “, I’m simply refuting that.
I added some stuff to my post.
I'm not sure what is so controversial. I can't remember exactly when the various changes happened, and I've admitted that I could put the cassette on my old Nomad wheel (even that wouldn't be possible if the Giant had XD) but there is nothing else that could be transferred to the old bike. Or maybe the cranks, it's difficult to remember what the chainlines are. And the shifters, I guess.
The main part of my argument is that almost every 'standard' has been changed and yet we are still left with a system that is indistinguishable from what was there before and all for limited, if any, improvement.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make other than I got something wrong? But that something doesn't affect the overall point I'm trying to make.
Yes, going straight to production without making and testing any prototypes is an unusual strategy so it’s not really surprising Honda would do so, is it?
But yeah, we have no idea what Honda’s plans were. It’s 0ne of those things that’s shrouded in mystery and rumour and probably always will be.
Your argument is basically, it would only be suitable for DH bikes. Kind of like suspension, I guess.
It was a company sponsored project to show off their engineering skills, they never had any intention of making production bikes. It's much easier to use a derailleur in a box on a DH bike because they don't need such a wide range of gears, the Honda used a road cassette with 7 sprockets, so probably only a 25 or 28 tooth large sprocket. To fit a 10-50 12 speed cassette into a frame would be much more difficult. The cassette would need to be several inches further from the input shaft and the derailleur would need to be much longer to have the range to cover that much larger cassette. That would probably limit you to a single pivot suspension design and also make it tricky to fit a shock in there. The Honda bike had the shock running through the seattube, so you can't fit a dropper post using that suspension design. Not a problem for a DH bike but a big problem for anything else. Look at the Honda bike and imaging that the gearbox is several inches longer, plus wider (to fit a 12 speed cassette), then tell me where you're going to fit the suspension and a dropper post.
Because your point was that you can't put 12s on an old bike and you absolutely can. That's it.
No, some variants can't be swapped over if you cherry pick your data points but that doesn't really prove anything.
FWIW I disagree with most of the drive train nonsense like the difference between road and mountain ratios and the introduction of different cassette sizes for road. I also find it amusing that people think flinging a load of extra weight to the rear rather than keeping it in the middle is in some way efficient. TBH my biggest bugbear with drive trains is ratios. Why constantly change them other than to force people to upgrade?
TBH my biggest bugbear with drive trains is ratios. Why constantly change them other than to force people to upgrade?
I'm still running 2x9 on most of my bikes, with 2x10 on a couple and 2x11 on one. To get a decent range with a single ring, you need a huge cassette with as many sprockets as possible to keep the gaps reasonably small. A single ring gives more space for wider tyres and suspension with 29" wheels. You could not get a wide enough range of gears with 1x9 for most people. You're limited to an 11-36 cassette so you need a 26 tooth chainring to be able to climb steep stuff if you're an averagely fit rider. That will mean spinning out on any descent. Fitting as many sprockets in the back and running a giant cassette is needed if you want to run a single ring up front.
I find the churn infuriating (I too had a non-boost 29er happily running 12s) but I could take every component on my rock lobster from the noughties bar the headset and fit it to the Solaris I bought in 2020. I mean, it would likely be terrible because the stem would be too long and the bars too narrow, and the wheels would be the wrong size, but I could pedal it round the block.
(Edit- I suspect the front mech might not fit either, but again, a front mech that would have fit was a standard size at the time).
It doesn’t work quite so neatly the other way but (wheels aside) the main things are a bigger steerer and a bigger seatpost, both of which I’m pretty sure were available at the time, just not on my bike. That’s admittedly because the hubs on the Solaris have been boosted at relatively little cost so could always be unboosted but that rather proves the ‘old things can work with new things’ point. It’s definitely annoying but it’s not the end of the world.
I suspect this'll be an unpopular opinion, but 29ers.
Better in some respects, but worse in others. On the whole, as a new standard, there aren't enough advantages to have been worth the change.
Yeah, compared to 26
I'm running 12 speed axs, with power meter cranks, on a 135mm qr-based road frame from 12 years ago, on a pro2 evo hub. Standards do move on, but if you're careful you can keep up with them.
whilst that's technically road, there's nothing on there to stop me using 12 speed x0 axs or whatever. I couldn't (I think) use anything from transmission though
@thols2 I don't disagree with any of that, I meant pull ratios. Should have been clearer.
I also try to stick with hubs that can be switched to whatever new standard I may stumble upon. Particularly happy with my 15mm Hope XC (okay it cost a bit more than a pair of end caps but still worked out in the end).
BruceWee
Full MemberMy point still stands that if you have a 135mm HG cassetted bike it will have no compatible parts with a 2023 mountain bike (except the cassette, if you bought a new freehub).
Not really sure what the underlying point is here so I might be misunderstanding, but... My current bike is all 2023 standards, and yet it's got the exact same ancient DT240 hubs in it that I had in my 2010 bike. As long as a hub was 12mm, it's convertible to boost etc, the conversion kits cost about £6 an end. The hub was HG back then but now it's got an XD 12-speed on it. It has XTR cranks from about 2007, a Fox 36 from I think 2015, brakes from 2010. I think the dropper post and stem are the only parts that are really contemporaneous with the frame, and ironically they're standards that could have worked with that 2010 bike.
