Nope, not a steel hardtail.
Now I know it's a 29er so not directly comparable, but that's only £450 less than an HB160, and the kit level is terrible.
She looks really ungainly on that bike as well - and it looks like that rear wheel will have buzzed her arse a few times.
Doesn't look like she can get over the front at all without the seatpost being in the way either....
4.5 stars? I'm out then
Was the rest of the sentance the ususal possible the best uk trail bike I've ridden since the last one?
And a steel hardtail ain't the best trail bike for the UK either, especially if you go near the mountains 😉
Is progressive geometry, the same thing as prog rock?
Discuss.
And a steel hardtail ain’t the best trail bike for the UK either, especially if you go near the mountains 😉
Tis for the weather 😀 I’m a crappy rider, but I’ve never felt under biked on a HT. cheap(ish), tough, capable and the good kind of scary.
32lbs isnt 'frighteningly heavy for a trail bike", especially a 29er
it does seem overpriced though, >5grand id be expecting carbon frame
Why are reviewers so good at getting details wrong? Longer, yes. Slacker, yes. Lower, no.
"32lbs isnt ‘frighteningly heavy for a trail bike”, especially a 29er"
Nope, but at this price and with that little travel it's portly- like, 2lbs heavier than a Slash 29 which has more travel, burlier kit and costs less. Or pretty comparable to a Specialized Camber and you could buy 2 of those for the same.
Weight isn't everything of course but it's one of the places money goes on expensive bikes.
Is progressive geometry, the same thing as prog rock?
Maybe, but Geometry was a prog rock band.
meh, Trek.
when the slash came out last year I thought oooh a trek I like, but they are bloody everywhere so i am back to meh.
yeah its silly money for the build spec but the geo and travel floats my boat
You could build a kick-ass Banshee Prime for way less than that and have a better, more versatile bike to boot.
My Jeffsy cost less than that and its carbon everything. Frame, rims, cranks, bars plus top kit.
£5k and no carbon at all?
Nah.
I couldn't care less about carbon and I'm not that bothered about weight, but £5k for Fox performance series suspension a GX eagle cassette and a 125mm dropper. Ouch !
Got to say my pivot mach6 is hard to beat
It's a meh from me
Meanwhile in Directland™, £4546.98 (inc delivery) gets you a sub-28lb full carbon 140mm travel trail bike with Fox Factory 34 and float shocks, full XO1 eagle, DT Swiss XMC1200 1450g carbon wheels, Renthal carbon fatbar and stem, etc. etc. Ok it has a reverb B1 but sell it for a Fox transfer (factory, of course..) and you're set.
My Jeffsy is my perfect trail bike.
The point being, we all ride what we have and most won't want or need a 5k to have great fun on it! 😃
That aside,i like the look of it but 5k? Bleeding eck!!
Makes Orange seem like good value....almost 🙂
I'd say Orange 5 and Stumpy.
I built up the older model frame (bought new) with full XT M8000, Pikes and Hope wheels for a lot less than that £5k. It's by far the best bike I've ever had or ridden.
£5k is a pisstake.
I agree that the full bike price is a little extortionate, but then frame only price is fairly competitive if you were to stick with a fork you already had, there are a couple of guys who have done this on MTBR and still love the bike.
I have a frame and fork on order and can't wait!
The tester is 5'4" has sized up to a medium and one of her complaints is that the 450mm reach is still a bit short ! Also, how does that score 3.5 stars for value !! I also built up the previous version with pikes, reverb, hope wheels etc for around £3k. Have bike prices really shot up that much over the last couple of years ?
Also, how does that score 3.5 stars for value !! I also built up the previous version with pikes, reverb, hope wheels etc for around £3k. Have bike prices really shot up that much over the last couple of years ?
Review stars are meaningless normally
For price comparison take a look at the value of the pound for some clues.
teethgrinder
You could build a kick-ass Banshee Prime for way less than that and have a better, more versatile bike to boot.
Frame only they are similar price.
Bigmantrials
<div class="bbp-reply-content">I have a frame and fork on order and can’t wait!
</div>
Me too hence my interest in reviews,mine arrives on Thursday hopefully (frame and fork) and I can let you know what I think, but of course its irrelevant as I now understand reviews are meaningless.. 🙂
@teethgrinder . Says who? link to review please
I'd be interested to know if anybody had tried these with normal (51mm) offset forks. When 29ers where first getting popular I tried 46mm and 51mm offset forks and honestly couldn't tell the difference. But head angles were much steeper in those days.
$4300 for XT build, or £4800 for XO1 Eagle (if you're into that sort of thing) on the Ison website. The Eagle build also comes with Lyriks, Reverb, Renthal carbon bars/Apex stem, and carbon cranks.
http://www.ison-distribution.com/english/product.php?part=5BE7PR13Z
http://www.ison-distribution.com/english/product.php?part=5BE7PR23Z
Fairly sure you could get that down by a significant amount from a dealer
no I meant that its better and more versatile..?
I'd like to try one of the new smugglers, but it does seem expensive for what it is, and it weighs a bloody load for bike with that much travel. The frame must be an absolute tank.
My F&R coil sprung 29" weighs a chunk less than that.
Well, for a start, the dropouts can change the geometry (only 2 positions on >2017 frames, though) and it'll take 29er and 27.5+ in the same frame. It also doesn't need silly offset forks. Instantly better and more versatile!
I do like the sound of them, but the only concern for me would be the weight. I'd have to try one up a few steep climbs to see how it felt first.
If I ever considered one, it would have to be frame only though.
5k! MTBing is turning into a joke of what company can produce the most expensive bike. Pushing up the average bike so that what was expensive becomes average.
£5k for an alloy frame, with that spec? You can get ones with batteries and a motor for less than that.
frame only price for the trannies have gone up about £350 in the last couple of years. Their complete bikes have always been a piss take in the UK
The tester is 5’4″ has sized up to a medium and one of her complaints is that the 450mm reach is still a bit short
she is smaller than me and I ride a small frame with a reach of 400mm. I find the old medium too long with a reach of 430mm
but £5k for Fox performance series suspension
performance elite - same as factory but with black stanchions.
Well hey, it could genuinely be the best UK trail bike.
For anyone fancying one but thinking they're a bit pricey (the full bike prices are ambitious), have a look at a 2017 Smuggler frame with a -1deg slackset and 140mm fork.
Comes out very similar (with a welcome extra 6mm on the chainstays) and rides brilliantly.
Any bike that has the added cost of a 'middleman's cut' is going to struggle to be "best" in anyone's measurement if you pay money for it.
If you just test it without having to buy it, well that's a different situation.
performance elite – same as factory but with black stanchions.
Ah, right, thanks, I did wonder what elite meant. Fair enough, factory spec with black stanchions is fair enough. Calling is performance might have been a mistake, but can't blame transition for that one.
The weight issue is a funny one. I wonder whether it's just because it's so easy to measure. If this bike were 29lb it would be praised for being light, at 32lb it's slated for being heavy, but I'm not sure I could feel a 3lb difference in frame weight without picking the bike up. I've still yet to see any solid evidence that 3lb difference in frame weight has any negative effects I've posted before about my experiences riding a heavy steel vs a light carbon fat-bike (with same wheels etc) and the heavier bike was faster on most climbs!
She looks really ungainly on that bike as well
not being anywhere near a riding god and have only done one Jedi session, but she seems to have several images in that photo shoot where her riding style looks a bit iffy - on her toes rather than heels dropped when taking that drop and also her hips seems to point out of the turn rather than into the turn as is the norm for most good riders - one picture has them pointing into the turn and at least two out.
but of course its irrelevant as I now understand reviews are meaningless..
My point was.. Stars generally are meaningless as they don't really relate to the review.
Same with the headlines.
Telling people what your thoughts are is a good way but again it takes a really talented reviewer to describe a bike well and honestly without bringing prejudice into it or the unfortunate fact of a significant investment.
My suppressor is close to 32lb but it has no carbon, heavy tyres, deore crank, DH bar and a coil. Tranny frames have always been heavy though.
sure no I appreciate that about the reviews, and I wouldn't really take one in isolation due to the reasons you describe.
Most do seem to be consistent about Transition bikes though from recent years . Expensive yes, a little heavier than most would think they desire, but fantastic geo and a massive amount of fun, which to me is what matters most (within reason of course) , not carbon this or factory that, spec spec spec. I've got the frame and a fox 36 from a friend who is a transition dealer for a shade over 2 grand.. I'm hoping it will be an absolute riot of a bike.
The tester is 5’4″ has sized up to a medium and one of her complaints is that the 450mm reach is still a bit short ! Also, how does that score 3.5 stars for value !! I also built up the previous version with pikes, reverb, hope wheels etc for around £3k. Have bike prices really shot up that much over the last couple of years ?
Tells you everything you need to know about the "review" then - to me, it doesn't look like that bike fits her properly at all.
I've been riding for what? Over 20 years now, I don't get how all these people come from nowhere and end up getting paid to write shit reviews for magazines. As TurnerGuy pointed out, we're being told a 450mm reach is too short by someone who can't ride - this happens a lot in the industry. Anyway I really need to find a way to monetise 20+ years of dossing around on bicycles, I must be doing something wrong.
Meanwhile, Sam Hill just stormed to 1st in the world on the EWS circuit on a bike with shorter reach, flat pedals and 27.5 wheels. People will come along and say, oh well, but he's Sam Hill - he could do that on anything. He chose to do it on a bike with shorter reach and smaller wheels for a reason. Where as whenever 29ers or bikes with ridiculous geometry win, we're told that they won because that wheel size or this new reach or head angle is faster.
As others have pointed out, most reviews are bullshit.
She can ride, she’s placed pretty well in races according to Roots And Rain. The reach thing is perplexing but I think a lot of it comes down to personal taste, which is down to both your build and riding style - I’m about 7” taller than her and find 450mm reach too long! But plenty of people are enjoying Geometrons and other super long bikes. At least with Transition’s short seat tubes there’s a lot of sizing flexibility either up or down.
The BB height hasnt changed in a few years - original Smuggler was 40mm BB drop. They raised it by 5mm the following year to 35mm BB drop and that number has stayed the same since 2016.
All the SBG Transitions are heavy - maybe they’ll be unbreakable? Maybe their warranty covers gnarlier riding than other brands? Or maybe not...
Northwind, my mates slash 9.9 was closer to 32lbs with pedals!
All these bikes are gonna be weighty, my (somewhat overbuilt) Kona 153 29 was nearly 35lbs when new, though it was over 2grand cheaper, with 2 grand to play with could get it down to 32, but with higher spec components
Fwiw I've found that with a steeper seat tube, longer reach didn't feel longer (infact a bit shorter?) Going from my old process to my new one
As others have pointed out, most reviews are bullshit.
But in a world without bike shops, where else do we get our information? Demo days? OK if the manufacturer in question runs such sessions in your area, but they are no good for many.
I still value reviews, but always take them with a pinch of salt because you don't know the person reviewing the bike, they don't know you and, tbh, everyone has a preference and what works for one person wouldn't work for another!
(point in question: I would claim that my own bike is superior in nearly every way to this one, and I'm sure most people here would have a similar opinion, but that's the great thing about bikes - we all like different things and there's loads out there to satisfy those needs. Yey!)
I'd also not appreciate hubs on a 5k bike needing attention after 3months, whatever conditions u ride in !
She can ride, she’s placed pretty well in races according to Roots And Rain.
not saying she can't ride but how applicable to most aspiring good riders are her thoughts on how a bike rides when her style is almost the complete opposite of what is the norm - lots of people don't drop their heels but turning her hips the other way is very different.
wow we have descended into comparing the bike to Sam Hill and then basically saying the reviewer can't ride based on a few photos. This place is amazing!
reviews are a guide no? Are we saying that despite the reviews Michael Bay's transformers films are actually good?
not saying she can’t ride but how applicable to most aspiring good riders are her thoughts on how a bike rides when
a few pics from a couple of hundred taken on the day show something different I'm going to draw some conclusions, the pics are probably selected as the light was good or something like that,
wow we have descended into comparing the bike to Sam Hill and then basically saying the reviewer can’t ride based on a few photos. This place is amazing!
+1
This thread has unprecedented levels of WTF. Is this what we've become?
Was tempted by a smuggler, just a shame they forgot to make the new sbg models hollow though.
wow we have descended into comparing the bike to Sam Hill and then basically saying the reviewer can’t ride based on a few photos. This place is amazing!
+2
I have no opinion on anything else, but slagging off the tester for liking a different fit to you on the bike?
(Yeah it is pricey though, but others have made all the points relevant to this above.)
pricing is a bit wild for the UK. That bike is $4999 in the states - so about £3.5k in GBP. The GX version is $3999.
I previously bought a brand new smuggler in 2016 and remember the pricing was quite close to the US.
BAsically if you buy a transition in the UK at the moment its a total rip off!
just checked her roots & rain & she beat me at the last race we did together (tweedlive international) so shes obviously fast as fk! 😉
“her style is almost the complete opposite of what is the norm – lots of people don’t drop their heels but turning her hips the other way is very different.”
You can’t trust photos for judging how someone rides - good riders move a lot on their bikes and a snapshot midway through a dynamic move could put their body in what would seem a very weird position if that was their static position. For example, it’s not uncommon for riders to initially flick their hips the opposite way to start a turn more aggressively.
To be honest I looked at the shots of her going off the drop in the video and thought "fair play".
To be clear, I wasn't criticizing her thoughts on the fit of the bike. That's personal preference. I was just surprised that (at 5'4") she still wanted a slightly longer reach than the 450mm on the test bike.
It does seem at odds to me that the best in the world is happy with a 435mm reach and the smaller tester is finding 450mm too short!
It does seem at odds to me that the best in the world is happy with a 435mm reach and the smaller tester is finding 450mm too short!
We are all different. There is no magic number to make a bike "right"
I have no opinion on anything else, but slagging off the tester for liking a different fit to you on the bike?
Me neither, but if a tester likes a fit far different from the norm their opinion isn't really helpfull to anyone else.
We are all different, I'm all legs with a short body, so really long reach isn't needed for me. Most women also have comparatively long legs and shorter torso.
It does seem at odds to me that the best in the world is happy with a 435mm reach and the smaller tester is finding 450mm too short!
People* like different things, who'd have thought it. And it depends where you ride, the reason enduro bikes have got quite a s long as they have is the courses are flatter which suits a more stretched out position. If you rode an enduro bike down a world cup DH track it would be hard work as the front end would end up so much lower than you all the time, so DH bikes have always tended to have shorter reaches.
*440mm and a 60mm stem in my case, I'm sure someone on this thread has an algorithm that can deduce my ability to ride from that preference and save me the effort of actually racing, thanks in advance
and fwiw 450mm reach really doesnt feel that long on a 29er with a steep SA (im 5'8 & it feels slightly shorter than on my old 435 reach process) I also expect that SBG makes it ride wrt how the reach feels
"It does seem at odds to me that the best in the world is happy with a 435mm reach and the smaller tester is finding 450mm too short!"
Sam Hill has a very upright riding style compared to most. Maybe a flat pedal thing, maybe a moto thing, maybe just him. I have quite an upright style too, and long limbs so also prefer shorter bikes for my height (not short - just typical reach in 2016 compared to now).
"Most women also have comparatively long legs and shorter torso."
They don't, that was a marketing myth. Height vs leg length ratios show the same mean and spread for men as for women.
A quick google says you are correct chief, an also quick and not neccessarily accurate search suggests women will likely be more comfortable with shorter reach due to weight distribution and lesser upper body strength.
wow we have descended into comparing the bike to Sam Hill and then basically saying the reviewer can’t ride based on a few photos. This place is amazing!
Agree, but we’re clearly in the presence of riding gods who can dicect someone’s ability on a couple of pics....or not.
I like Transition Bikes, love my Scout but they’re certainly on the chubby end of the scale. The complete bikes are mental money though.
A quick google says you are correct chief, an also quick and not neccessarily accurate search suggests women will likely be more comfortable with shorter reach due to weight distribution and lesser upper body strength.
Snigering about top heavy lovelies asside.
It's the other way around, aren't men the top heavy ones? I seem to recall that mens broader shoulders and extra muscle adds more weight up top, whereas even at low body fat % women still carried the extra on their hips.
So yeah, simple rules there 😉
most people here are middle heavy. big swinging dic*s and beer guts 🙂
It’s the other way around, aren’t men the top heavy ones?
what about rotating weight though ?
Agree, but we’re clearly in the presence of riding gods who can dicect someone’s ability on a couple of pics….or not.
someone pointed out that she looked a little ungainly in one photo - I pointed out that her hips were pointing in an unexpected direction in 3 out of the 4 still shots.
Some people are forced to buy bikes on spec and take risks because there are no shops with demos anywhere nearby, and the point was that possibly the review might not rate as too dependable if the scant evidence showed that the rider had a slightly non-standard riding style.
It's a bit like me buying golf clubs because Jim Furyk is successful with them, or even Colin Montgomerie...
someone pointed out that she looked a little ungainly in one photo – I pointed out that her hips were pointing in an unexpected direction in 3 out of the 4 still shots.
It could be that she's trying to 'style it up' for the camera.
It could be that she’s trying to ‘style it up’ for the camera.
and failing then, otherwise someone wouldn't have pointed out that she looked ungainly.
This thread has unprecedented levels of WTF
I thought it was just me, There's a pretty unpleasant undercurrent about some of the comments.
I'm 5'4" on a 2018 medium Patrol - seated geo is pretty much like my previous bike, yes the reach & stack is longer but these bikes run a steeper seat angle & reduced offset fork & it felt right from the get go. I know it's heavier than my last bike but I genuinely haven't bothered weighing it because I'm far too busy having fun riding it. It climbs, turns & descends better than anything I've owned to date.
Reviews are just opinion & everyone will have their own. Rachael may not have been riding bikes for the 20 years plus that some of us have, but she's a cracking rider with plenty of experience & knowledge. 😎
There’s a pretty unpleasant undercurrent about some of the comments.
and what is that ?
Well said ART
A load of internet experts slagging off a reviw of a bike they've never ridden is hardly a first for any online forum*
More to the point it just shows they don't understand modern geometry and how it feels to ride these bikes
*(although this time via the reviewer themselves- cmon it's not like she's doddy!)