[Closed] Cotic Soul, now with tapered HT and 31.9 Seat tube - hooray !!!

Oooh. Thank **** it's not out in green though, I would have been completely incapable of resisting if it had been.

Just spoke to Paul at Cotic and they don't foresee doing a run in green yet.

It also has routing for a dropper post under the top tube, just like the new Bfe AND it's slightly lighter!

I can see me changing from my MK2 to one of these, just to be able to a non fugly dropper post.

Now the only question is stick with black as per my existing one or go Orange? 😕

of course as soon as I buy one the buggers will do a run of them in green, just watch 🙄

Nice, but with a price increase. Orange is the Soul colour, non of this green nonsense! Think i'll stick with my mark 2.

Wonder why they went with a tapered headtube rather than a 44mm one like on the Solaris... any ideas?

Packer, your answer is in here : http://cotic.co.uk/geek/tapered

Thanks for the link! All sounds good to me.

Isn't the 27.2 seat tube a 'feature', for more flex?

will the larger diameter seat tube stiffen it up around the bottom bracket?

Matt, the Classic Soul, that takes a 27.2mm seat post, is still available : http://cotic.co.uk/product/classic_soul : you choose

will the larger diameter seat tube stiffen it up around the bottom bracket?

The tube itself is 15% stiffer so it would make the frame slightly stiffer. Looks like a good selection of updates.

I wonder how much cost (to Cotic) the tapered head tube adds?

If the only reason is aesthetics it seems a bit a weak argument to me when a 44mm head tube might well be cheaper and offer greater flexibility to the end user.

If the only reason is aesthetics it seems a bit a weak argument to me when a 44mm head tube might well be cheaper and offer greater flexibility to the end user.

I think it's weight and strength as well as looks that they based their decision on

whoo hoo

Having spoke to Paul it was the lack of contact area at the TT/HT junction that made the decision for them.

well that sounds eminently sensible. Glad it wasn't just because it looked awkward although I would still understand it if that were the reason (weak as it is).

Yep, different diam top tube in the Soul. The Solaris/Simple/BFe/Rocket all have a far fatter top tube, which wraps enough around a full 44mm head tube. The Soul has a smaller top tube that need to mate to a slimmer head tube area. The tapered headtube is also lighter.

will there be an XL? 20.5/21" version?

Kelvin I chose last year and have a Soul 2, errr 'Classic'.

At least it took a few years for my Blur to become 'Classic', with the Soul it's just months!

also just noticed they are doing a 'ickle' 14.5" as well

mattjg - Member
Kelvin I chose last year and have a Soul 2, errr 'Classic'.

At least it took a few years for my Blur to become 'Classic', with the Soul it's just months!

I guess it depends when you buy. I bought a Blur "Classic" in 2005 and just 2 weeks later they announced the LT!!!

I, for sure will be getting the new Soul. It looks ACE!!!

It think in all fairness we've run the same design since October 2009 until now. Not a bad innings!

The taper tube is lighter and works more efficiently than a 44mm one would on the Soul, but I'm not going to lie to you, it looks way better too and was definitely a factor in my thinking.

No plans for an XL. Considering the Solaris XL isn't exactly flying off the shelf I can't it happening either.

Missed one! Yes, the bigger seat tube makes it a little stiffer around the BB. As it's still got the same size top tube as the previous frame the overall frame stiffness isn't too different, but it is a bit more crisp under power.

Regarding the seatpost size, we were concerned too, which is why we've tested it for a long time. To be honest, I don't find any problem riding massive days out on the new frame with a bigger seatpost. High quality posts have thinner walls in the bigger sizes anyway so it's still a nice ride.

cy - Member
No plans for an XL. Considering the Solaris XL isn't exactly flying off the shelf I can't it happening either.

Fair enough, simple economics i guess, a shame though as ill just be buying from a competitor now, riding a second choice bike.

on another note, improve your marketing & you will sell more bikes including those left over XL's 🙂

Im ready for the STW backlash 😀

I thought Cotic had improved their marketing.

Short of draping that cute girl form the Rocketman video across a Soul in a bikini (Note to Cy - I will buy a new Soul if you do this), they can't really do much more. Small company like them isn't going to buy full page magazine spreads.

know a lot about marketing in 2012 i see honourablegeorge 8)

It think in all fairness we've run the same design since October 2009 until now. Not a bad innings!

For sure. Perfectly content with my Oct '11 frame, not bothered it's now been 'replaced', products have to move on. Good luck with it.

I know what appeals to my own demographic.....

Marketing or not, he has sold it to me, or will be doing tomorrow when I get into work and make a phone call.

Just need to be awake all night deciding on Black or Orange 🙄

Anybody interested in a 16" Black MK 2 Soul, Hope headset and Hope Stainless BB?

You know it's got to be Orange. I know mine will be :o)

I could get the black one and Mrs V wouldn't suspect a thing.

apart from the big box being delivered on Friday that is. 🙄

It's nice to have a change. Even if it does upset the apple cart, it won't last long 😉

I'll buy her a bunch of flowers, that should sort it. 😉

Vortexracing - Member

Anybody interested in a 16" Black MK 2 Soul, Hope headset and Hope Stainless BB?

Why not keep the top half of your headset, and the BB? Why would you ditch good quality stuff like that?

Why not keep the top half of your headset, and the BB? Why would you ditch good quality stuff like that?

I thought it would be easier to sell a whole 1&1/8" headset and buy a new Hope tapered one, money wise it works out nearly the same TBH.

Plus I have a new Race Face BB that I got with my shiney new Race Face cranks.

Serious question: what makes this a big enough upgrade to sell a M2 and buy a MK3?

(Orange. Ferrarris are red. Souls are orange).

TBH, have just sold a jump bike for about £200 and I have had my Mk 2 for 2 years, so the time is right. The money has been freed up and if I just put the dosh in the bank, it will just dissapear on other stuff.

Plus, I did run a Gravity dropper on my MK 2 and thought it was horrible, worked, but looked fugly, this new Soul means I can get a reverb to fit it.

Honest enough response?

Cy, is the 26" Simple dead and gone forever? Nearly bought a Custard one years ago and I've always regretted not going for it. 🙁

Of course. Get one, go wear it out.

And it does look nice.

Reassuring to see so much seatpost on that pic, mine's like that, more than once I've been told it's too small for me, it's way fun to ride tho.

Love my mk2 but this has me considering an upgrade mainly for the dropper post capability

honourablegeorge - Member
I know what appeals to my own demographic.....

is there a demographic for people living in the 90's?

your telling me a company like cotic can't sell x10 XL frames (x2 people on here willing to buy already) in a world of 6 Billion & there marketing is fine... 🙄

Vortexracing - Member
Marketing or not, he has sold it to me

missed the point & he has sold to you because the size that fits you is available

cy - Member
No plans for an XL. Considering the Solaris XL isn't exactly flying off the shelf I can't it happening either.

Coming back to this, surely it not that surprising, after all the 29" XL market is bound be be smaller than that of the 26" XL?

Cotic's marketing is brilliant, this forum is full of Cotic threads. How do you think I came to buy one when I decided I wanted a HT?

why can't they sell x10 XL's world wide then?

Maybe its because big people shouldn't ride and its actually a conspiracy

The Soul is available in sizes all the way down to XS, and the Solaris is available in sizes all the way up to XL. Isn't that everyone covered?

Custard yellow is the proper colour for a soul, orange is just a "johny come lately" and a usurper.

The Soul is available in sizes all the way down to XS, and the Solaris is available in sizes all the way up to XL. Isn't that everyone covered?

obviously not, 🙄

why can't they sell x10 XL's world wide then?

perhaps they can but have concluded the people who would buy them might be inveterate whiners

Know nothing about these dropper posts, but giving it some thought, seems like a good edition. I'm continually have to stop raise/lower my seat. Perhaps is because i'm right on the limit of a small frame size wise or perhaps its my lack of skill, but unlike other bikes i've ridden the soul does nto respond half as well on anything remotely downhill with my seat in its `xc postion'.

I'm still in the "dropper is another piece of kit to go wrong camp", but several people whose opinions I respect love them.

It's probably only a matter of time ...

I tried a dropper recently and fell in love with it so much that I ordered one straight away

hmmm I do feel a dropper coming on if you'll pardon the expression.

... does that mean I need a Soul with a bigger seat tube?!

... and does that mean I then need new headset cups for my inch and eighth forks? and won't they look pants sticking out of a wide tapered headtube?

back where we started I think

mattjg - Member
perhaps they can but have concluded the people who would buy them might be inveterate whiners

I'm not whining, I'm asking / making a valid point.

The Solaris tubeset is far more suitable for an XL frame with its longer tubes.
I don't see why anyone big enough to ride one would want to opt for a Soul instead.

Plus XL Solarii look fantastic, the XL Soul, in my opinion, didn't look as good as you'd expect for a Cotic hardtail.

Making an XL Soul now, or an XS Solaris for that matter, would be daft, wouldn't it?

Tim for reasons we can only guess and Cotic probably won't disclose, it seems they don't want to make what you want. Perhaps they feel their time and energy is more usefully invested elsewhere, but that's just conjecture. Right or wrong, that's their privilege.

Also, speaking as a lower-medium height person, who's too small to make the best of a 29er IMO, I think Kelvin's point is valid. If a 26er fits me nice, surely someone your height would be better on a 29er.

But if you know what you want, go get a frame builder to make it for you. In essence, it's a bunch of metal tubes welded together, it's not magic. You can do what you want really, (other then use someone else's trademarks, so you can't call it a Cotic).

Genuine question

What does Cy ride normally, being 6'3" an all (from what I remember)

Would be interested in an XL soul as I'm just over the recommended height (6'4") for a L soul and not certain that I want to buy new wheels / forks and ride round on a clown bike having been quite happy with 26" wheels for the last 20 years or so.

I do accept that most of my bikes look faintly ridiculous with v long seatposts sticking out of a large inbred and a large trance

Just thought it would be interesting to know whether the owner / designer of cotic rides a soul or a solaris (and accept that the answer is likely to be "it depends...")

My mate wanted an XL Soul aswell - ended up getting a Sanderson.

bugger look wot u done. yesterday I was happy & content with my bike, now I want a droppy post and a frame to match it.

bugger look wot u done. yesterday I was happy & content with my

Vortex,

How much for your 16" frame?

kelvin - Member
I don't see why anyone big enough to ride one would want to opt for a Soul instead.

Here is one of many answers...

tinytim - Member
Would be interested in an XL soul as I'm just over the recommended height (6'4") for a L soul and not certain that I want to buy new wheels / forks and ride round on a clown bike having been quite happy with 26" wheels for the last 20 years or so.

Kevin you have this strange approach of telling the customer what they want & dismissing their requests.

The 'old' Soul looked perfect IMO. I understand the changes but I just don't like the look of the new one as much.

mattjg - Member

Tim for reasons we can only guess and Cotic probably won't disclose, it seems they don't want to make what you want. Perhaps they feel their time and energy is more usefully invested elsewhere, but that's just conjecture. Right or wrong, that's their privilege.

Also, speaking as a lower-medium height person, who's too small to make the best of a 29er IMO, I think Kelvin's point is valid. If a 26er fits me nice, surely someone your height would be better on a 29er.

But if you know what you want, go get a frame builder to make it for you. In essence, it's a bunch of metal tubes welded together, it's not magic. You can do what you want really, (other then use someone else's trademarks, so you can't call it a Cotic).

I want a new frame, not a new bike.

I'll just buy another great steel hardtail like a Genesis Latitude.

Hey other Tim, calm down!

I asked Cy, not Kelvin (def not Kevin!) and he probably has better things to do

I just wanted to know what the rather tall owner of the company choses to ride as if he's happy on a L soul that may explain the reluctance to go (x) large

Turns out he's riding a rocket for the weekender...

I'll just buy another great steel hardtail like a Genesis Latitude.

The biggest one of those has a top tube 5mm longer than an L Soul. Is that enough biggerer for you?

Tinytim, Cy does indeed ride a Large. Both Soul and Solaris.

Vortex,

How much for your 16" frame?

£300 posted with Hope QR collar
£330 with Hope headset
£360 with Hope headset and Hope Stainless BB

Mike_D - Member
The biggest one of those has a top tube 5mm longer than an L Soul. Is that enough biggerer for you?

yes i'm aware of that & the added height of seat tube for my longs legs does have an effect.

Ive had a large soul & it just didnt feel quite big enough

tinytim - Member

Hey other Tim, calm down!

I am calm 8)

I am calm

god help us if he gets angry then!

Ive had a large soul & it just didnt feel quite big enough

how is it set up?

I'm bang on the cusp between small and med, Cotic advised me to get a small and I did, not totally convinced.

I started with 660mm bars on a 90mm stem and it felt just wrongly sized, I was convinced I should have got a medium.

Then I messed about a bit and tried 725mm bars on a 70mm stem, it's bang on and there is no way I would want a longer tt (and hence stem shorter or bars narrower).

Cotic actually recommend a short/wide setup somewhere, turns out they were right!

Perhaps you could try that.

I was also advised to go for the small, and to start with was not convinced. Shorter stem and wider bars and all's good.

Surely the XL Soul/Solaris argument shouldn't be based on height? I thought the 26er vs 29er argument was always based around the wheel size and how it rode rather than big wheels are naturally better suited to tall people?

Not that I really give a damn as I'm a small/medium rider. Loved my old Soul but was pushing the boundaries of what I thought it might have been capable of. Wouldn't mind a new BFe though - they look very, very nice...

I think if you consider the reverse of these ponderings you can see the benefit of 29ers if you're tall:

"...we got a couple of 16" [Solaris] frames with top tubes 10mm shorter than the medium (it's the shortest we could go whilst maintaining fork adjuster clearance). Paul was our test rider as he's 5ft 8in and runs a small Soul.

The most surprising thing was that with flat bars we were able to replicate Paul's Soul position pretty easily even with the much longer top tube. However, this was using an inline seatpost rather than layback, and a 60mm stem as opposed to 65mm on the Soul. Paul's done a good few rides on the bike now. Basically it's extremely fast rolling and secure - as you'd expect - but Paul can't really move the bike around. Due to the low BB, larger BB/head tube distance and longer back end, he hasn't got long enough arms and legs to throw his weight outside the wheels. This is compounded by the 29er having a much lower BB relative to the axles than a 26" bike. Seeing him ride, he's almost trapped between the wheels. We've went down to a 50mm stem to push him back a bit on the bike to try and counter this and it helped a bit, but it also made the steering too light and quick.

It's interesting, because Paul's a really talented and able rider, with a trials background, so he can and does move a bike around a lot when riding. He just can't with the 29er, so he doesn't like it. It's not as much fun as the 26" bike. The interesting thing is that once people are this kind of height, the 29" almost seem to define the use of the bike as something quite different to a 26" bike. If Paul wanted a light, comfortable, efficient thing for crossing a map, then the 29er would be good. For having fun and generally enjoying riding bikes, you won't be that surprised to hear he's back on his Soul. This is in total contrast to Cy, who at 6ft 3in didn't feel he needed to adapt much at all to the 29er, but he has long enough levers to get his weight moving outside the wheels."

A larger wheel will roll and grip better offroad but if it's too large compared to the rider then you'll struggle to make it handle direction changes well. The bigger the rider, the more leverage and mass you have available to control the bike so you can take advantage of bigger wheels. FWIW I'm 5'10.5" and am perfectly happy on a Soul, I'm no 29er fanatic.

Also, according to a cursory look on t'interweb, less than 1% of the male population are 6'4" or taller - even amongst MTBing age people it's not a large number! It may also be the case that XL sized riders change bike less frequently because they have fewer opportunities to try different bikes as demo/mates' bikes are usually too small.

yes i'm aware of that & the added height of seat tube for my longs legs does have an effect.

Those are effective top tube measurements. Seat tube is irrelevant. If an L Soul isn't big enough, I'd be surprised if a 20.5 Latitude is -- it's simply not that much bigger a bike.

[b]chiefgrooveguru[/b]:

At 5' 10.5" what size Soul do you ride??

I'm the same size as Cotic Paul and rode a buddy's 29er and felt the same: I'd say Cotic have it bang on in that quote.

26 is right for me, for what I do. My taller riding buddies ride 29ers very well. We both ride what's in proportion and it looks/feels right.

Mike_D - Member
Those are effective top tube measurements. Seat tube is irrelevant. If an L Soul isn't big enough, I'd be surprised if a 20.5 Latitude is -- it's simply not that much bigger a bike.

But i dont want that much bigger a bike & Cy's dimensions for a XL soul arnt much different again. Effective Top Tube is one thing, but that Measurement stays the same no matter what height your saddle is, hense you can read as much or little into it as you like.

When ive been on the (was only once) it felt a better fit, if i dont get on with it, i'll get rid of it, its that simple.