[Closed] Commuter E-bike musings - doing it cheaper?

Bafeng kits are cadence sensor not torque sensing so are much less intuitive to ride ie you get whatever level of power yo have set it to as soon as you turn the pedals and that level of power assist remains the same no matter how hard you push the pedals. torque sensing motors work out how hard you push the pedals and give power proportionate to that.

there is a torque sensing kit available now https://wheelsgo.net/tongsheng-tsdz2-mid-drive-motor-e-bike-conversion-kit/ I know of one person using this and they really rate it. there are other torques sensing kits around as well but pricy.

I have ridden a whole variety of different e bike types and mid mount torque sensing is IMO the best by far. A good add on kit is close to the full builds. a cadence sensing kit is very much second best.

You can get full builds with Bosch or steps motors for well under £2000 - or could last time I looked.
However Trailrat on here has a bafeng and loves it

Here's a Scott one that looks like a good commuter (mudguards, lights, disk brakes, kickstand, lock, chainguard, rack), and is £1400 new with a Bosch mid motor: https://www.rutlandcycling.com/bikes/electric-bikes/scott-sub-active-eride-2019-electric-crossbar-hybrid-bike-bronze_462484

Find someone with a bafang and test it.

I have one. You might as I found find all that stuff tj wrote unimportant.

I will say I use it solely for utility . If I was riding off road the I see benifit in how the Bosch motors respond.

That Scott bike is everything I don’t like about some “utility” ebikes. Monster wheels, heavy forks, don’t need a rack, don’t need a heavy integrated lock or lights. The kit on it is very low end too.

I’m thinking of a nice Soecialized Sirrus or similar with a conversion on it. No unnecessary kit and should be able to pick a nice one up for £150 second hand (just missed one which was a year old which went for £100 - doh!) and convert it.

36 miles round trip in hilly Yorkshire. I’m really unfit and fat and trying to increase fitness and lose weightip in hilly Yorkshire. I’m really unfit and fat and trying to increase fitness and lose weight

Chapeau. That's all. You aren't supposed to be exhausted after a commute - not if you have work to do. For me that's the point of E-bikes.

I'm looking at a torque-sensing add-on for Mrs TiRed's older hybrid. If she doesn't rate it, I plan on swapping it onto the trike.

Can you stretch to a Ribble CGR? You can spec a flat bar version.

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-cgr-al-e/

Swytch might be worth a look, I've seen a few on converted Bromptons.

https://www.swytchbike.com/p/universal-swytch-ebike-conversion-kit/

swedish metal - the weight of the bike matters less when its an ebike. You have to decide on your priorities but you cannot get everything you want.

tired - torque sensing kits? the tongshen one looks good but still relativly new to market. the Pendix one looks good as well but expensive.

Have a look at the Suntour equipped bikes in Halfords. Hub motors, but torque sensing at the crank.

Until you try and lift it up it rides very much like the Bosch mid drive systems.

Play the game and wait for a 20% sale, British cycling discount, quidco cashback, any perks at work type offers where you buy halfords vouchers at a discount etc and the OH's ended up costing about £750.

But; if you'll use it to save the planet or avoid traffic then its a great idea. But I don't think it would get you fit. I don't know anyone who's bought and e-bike and suddenly got fit because they rode it more than they would have a normal bike. Compared to I do know people who went from average middle aged office worker to 200miles in 10 hours roadies off the back of a 5 mile each way flat ish commute on a normal bike (and clubruns, training etc, but it was the commute that kick started it). If you want to get fit I'd just do the commute normally a couple of times a week.

I don’t know anyone who’s bought and e-bike and suddenly got fit because they rode it more than they would have a normal bike.

Conversely, I do know people who've bought an e-bike and got fitter off the back of it 🙂

Swytch might be worth a look, I’ve seen a few on converted Bromptons.

You sure it wasn't just an electric brompton? I didn't think the Swytch kits were out yet (unless you're somewhere where they are being tested?)

But I don’t think it would get you fit.

Why not? I can probably ride to work twice a week which will be 4 hours of riding instead of sitting in the car. I’ve been back out on the MTB a few times but don’t get much time to ride so this is ideal.
Even with the ebike I have borrowed I still needed a shower when I got to work as it’s really hilly round here and an 18 mile journey. I didn’t use the highest assistance until the way home to conserve battery and it was really good. Felt like I’d got a proper workout.

Certainly better than doing nothing

swedish metal – the weight of the bike matters less when its an ebike.

But it still matters. Why waste effort hauling round weight you don’t need to? Lighter more efficient bike will need less battery power to assist and will be easier for me to lift up and down steps at home.
It’s like modern cars - they have sometimes huge power compared to similar cars in the past but aren’t much faster as they have chubbed up so much with extra luxuries and safety features.
Why they have to fit useless lardy suspension forks on them I’ll never know.

I’m looking at a torque-sensing add-on for Mrs TiRed’s older hybrid. If she doesn’t rate it, I plan on swapping it onto the trike.

Thanks for the positivity.

Which system are you looking at getting?

Why not? I can probably ride to work twice a week which will be 4 hours of riding instead of sitting in the car. I’ve been back out on the MTB a few times but don’t get much time to ride so this is ideal.
Even with the ebike I have borrowed I still needed a shower when I got to work as it’s really hilly round here and an 18 mile journey. I didn’t use the highest assistance until the way home to conserve battery and it was really good. Felt like I’d got a proper workout.

Certainly better than doing nothing

Better than nothing, but I'm just not convinced by much. Put simply getting fit requires you to do 110% efforts to overload your body and stimulate a response. Doing as many 80% efforts as you like and letting the bike do the rest won't elicit the same effect.

My argument would be that 36 miles, even hilly ones isn't an insurmountable commute to do 2-3 times a week. I used to do 26 each way (albeit relatively flat) a few times a week. It was absolutely knackering for the first couple of months, on riding days I would get home and collapse (or worse, bonk miles from home). 3 months in I was doing it, chucking my baggy shorts through the door, swapping bikes, eating a bananna and heading out for a 45 mile clubrun.

If you think you have the motivation to go out on a cold November day and do it on the e-bike for little fitness benefit, then surely you have the motivation to go out and do it on a cold November day on a normal bike. The time difference between the two is probably not all that much once you add in needing to shower etc with either option.

I'm not anti e-bikes, I've been tempted to get one for my commute. But I'd not kid myself it would do anything for my fitness unless I considered myself at risk of over training (highly unlikely)!

My argument would be that 36 miles, even hilly ones isn’t an insurmountable commute to do 2-3 times a week.

Well it is to me. We can’t all have your godlike levels of fitness, some of us are recovering from extended periods of illness and/or injury and just glad to be able to ride a bike again.

I’ll now feel free to ignore any further “advice” from you.

Which system are you looking at getting?

I was looking at the tongsheng, but having watched the installation video, I'm probably more inclined to the more straighforward Bafang now. For fitting, you need a BB without cables underneath. Mrs TiRed's Dawes meets this criteria. But... the tongsheng attaches via an additional bolt across the chainstay bridge. That's a bit of a problem on a recumbent boom 😀 and I want to be sure I use it should she not ride it.

Personally, I think you'd be happy on either. More than that, as you say four hours outside on the bike! What is not to like about that - of course you'll get fitter. And you can always turn it off (or forget to recharge it).

Well it is to me. We can’t all have your godlike levels of fitness, some of us are recovering from extended periods of illness and/or injury and just glad to be able to ride a bike again.

Nice assumption, but I was 18 stone with a knackered back at the time. That's why I did it.

You can't do "110%" effort

I like the look of that Ribble cgr-e. From the pictures it doesn’t look like an e-bike but I guess I’m the metal it probably has a large rear hub with the motor in it.

I have no need for one right now - but if I had a hilly 18 mile commute each way I think I’d probably look to get one on bike to work. It would mean I commute it more on the bike than car / public transport.

You can’t do “110%” effort

Depends where you define 100%, from the context FTP would be an obvious one.

I was looking at the tongsheng, but having watched the installation video, I’m probably more inclined to the more straighforward Bafang now. For fitting, you need a BB without cables underneath. Mrs TiRed’s Dawes meets this criteria. But… the tongsheng attaches via an additional bolt across the chainstay bridge.

So for the Bafang I’d need a bike with top tube routing but I don’t need a chain stay bridge?

For a bafang all you need is a clear area round the BB area. You can have cables going under the bafang but BB centric pivots would be out or eccentric BB shells

All other cables etc can go any where

My BB mount kit which is very similar in shape to a bafeng has enough room to allow cables under the BB

The tongsheng certainly can be mounted without a chainstay bridge - the chap I know with one has mounted it on the front of a tandem. Presumably needs some bodging / fettling to do so

This one looks like a good system.........CYC X1

This is 99%: "But with the throttle screwed on, there is only the barest margin, and no room at all for mistakes. It has to be done right... and that's when the strange music starts, when you stretch your luck so far that fear becomes exhilaration and vibrates along your arms. You can barely see at a hundred; the tears blow back so fast that they vaporize before they get to your ears. The only sounds are the wind and a dull roar floating back from the mufflers. You watch the white line and try to lean with it... howling through a turn to the right, then to the left, and down the long hill to Pacifica... letting off now, watching for cops, but only until the next dark stretch and another few seconds on the edge... The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. The others- the living- are those who pushed their luck as far as they felt they could handle it, and then pulled back, or slowed down, or did whatever they had to when it came time to choose between Now and Later. But the edge is still Out there"
-- Hunter S Thompson

100% effort is dying from a heart attack. 99.5% is passing out and puking on yourself. 99.9% is a heart attack or aneurysm that doesn't kill you.

It is LITERALLY not possible to give >100% effort.

I agree 110%

I’m very close to fitting a Bafang BBS01 to my big dummy. The tongsheng torque sensing unit problem isn’t robust enough for my use (according to a respected and established seller)

“Better than nothing, but I’m just not convinced by much. Put simply getting fit requires you to do 110% efforts to overload your body and stimulate a response. Doing as many 80% efforts as you like and letting the bike do the rest won’t elicit the same effect.“

There’s so much utter bollocks in this.

I was cycling home yesterday and for some reason I had my Levo on the middling assistance mode, not sure why. When I noticed I put it into turbo mode and the odd thing is that I then noticed I was pedalling harder, despite the higher assistance. I don’t think I can be the only person who pedals harder when going faster to go faster still? It’s such a rewarding virtuous circle.

benp1

got a link to that? I am interested 'cos i was thinking of getting one

Any view on the newer Bafang mid-drives?

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Edit: road.cc vague review from 2018

@yourguitarhero......

Thank you, i love that HST quotation.

Put simply getting fit requires you to do 110% efforts to overload your body and stimulate a response. Doing as many 80% efforts as you like and letting the bike do the rest won’t elicit the same effect.

Ignoring the percentages over 100% that's just utter bollocks.

You can train your aerobic system at modest levels of exertion, no need to go anywhere near top end. It's what most professional / serious cyclists spend the majority of time on e.g. base miles etc. If you want to train the anaerobic system, then yes you need to do hard efforts, but unless you're racing, you don't really need a peaked up anaerobic system for cycling.

That Scott bike is everything I don’t like about some “utility” ebikes. Monster wheels, heavy forks, don’t need a rack, don’t need a heavy integrated lock or lights. The kit on it is very low end too.

I’m thinking of a nice Soecialized Sirrus or similar with a conversion on it. No unnecessary kit and should be able to pick a nice one up for £150 second hand (just missed one which was a year old which went for £100 – doh!) and convert it.

Bang on.

I had a loaner Ridgeback HT e-bike, if you took the lec-tech away, I wouldn't have paid 300 quid for the bike, wasn't anywhere near the standard of my Calibre commuter. It was 2100 quid.

You could buy the likes of my calibre and covert for about a grand all in, and if it doesn't work out for you, then you still have the bike and could sell on the kit.

It’s a big premium for an integrated battery/motor, if I’m not mistaken. The economy restofbuild would be the offset to keep the bike at a pricepoint.

sounds like tinas has swallowed the sufferfest cool aid and their marketing.

Like trail_rat I have converted a bike to use a Bafang BS02. Cost about 800 quid (plus some swearing) to set up. It gives me an option when I don't feel like riding the commute.
Particularly as my recovery ain't what it used to be even 10 years ago.

Yes it's the motor isn't a smooth but it does the job for my 10 mile commute and takes 10 mins off the journey each way.

Swytch might be worth a look, I’ve seen a few on converted Bromptons.

You sure it wasn’t just an electric brompton? I didn’t think the Swytch kits were out yet (unless you’re somewhere where they are being tested?)

I've definitely seen them on Bromptons and other bikes, I thought they've been available for a while. I'm not sure why it's on indiegogo, maybe marketing to make the low price look like a special deal?

I've also seen quite a few of the Brompton e-bikes as well!

I like the look of the pendix kit expensive tho - well over £1000 iirc. Mid mount and torque sensing

the problem with ebike add on kits ( which is why the one I have is no longer made) is that high quality ones are as expensive as the premium for buying a ebike with a mid mount motor. The cheaper ebike add on kits are compromised. Now trail rat and others find the compromise of the bafeng fine for them. Me i find a bike without torque sensing too awkward to ride.

You will have to take a compromise in some way. You just have to make your choice as to which ones matter lest to you

I like the look of the pendix kit expensive tho – well over £1000 iirc. Mid mount and torque sensing

£1699rrp (£50 more for the Brompton one which I've ridden briefly and seemed to work nicely)

CYC-X1... Wow. 3000w. I thought that the legal limit on power was waaaaay less than that.

Talking about build quality though, my mechanic and I were discussing that the other week and he is horrified at the poor choice of materials on the cheaper end of the pre-built systems. His opinion is that they are just taking normal bikes and components and then bolting heavy torquey things to them and selling them for a grand. The state they get to because of the unusual wear and tear is phenomenal apparently.

That Bafang mid-drive thing looks really well put together though, nicely integrated.

For the UK it is if you want to be raod legal - its 250w. Its 1000w in the us IIRC so that motor I doubt is legal for road use anywhere unless you register as a motorbike