[Closed] Chinese "Replica" Frames

With pleasure:

http://modmyi.com/content/9326-imac-wannabe-pops-up-china.html

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Link to a knock-off Chinese iMac please?

My Chinese mate has a Chinese Iphone4- it even even has the apps, everything.

You've shot yourself in the foot there. As the article Shib posted states, it [i]looks[/i] like an iMac but very definitely isn't one, and isn't made to the same specs either.

I might order a fake owl.

[img] [/img]

Rachael: Do you like our owl?
Deckard: It's artificial?
Rachael: Of course it is.
Deckard: Must be expensive.

Wasn't it the case that there were a whole chain of knock off apple stores in China with everything replicated, from staff t-shirts to the store fittings and obviously the products, everything was intricately copied and it was only a tourist who was trying to get a repair done that alerted Apple to the operation.

I just don't agree with the Chinese mentality of copying.

If I had designed something and had it made to then see people copying it and selling it as genuine i'd be frothing and would use Capital letters in my response.

[quote=Shibboleth ]
This is typical of the utter bullshine that is spouted by those chavs with wheely cases full of snide gear that go door-to-door in highstreets.
SNIP!

What grum said. I've also heard from people who have lived in Naples for some time who say this goes on, but what do they know eh? Nobody is saying that the bloke with the crap in a holdall is selling the "real fakes" but I've not seen a single debunking of what Roberto Saviano has said about the rag trade in Naples so unless someone can point me in that direction, I'll stick with Bertie and the people I know as a source of info.

I just don't agree with the Chinese mentality of copying.

Different culture, different period in the economic development of a nation. You'd probably have struggled to fit in in 19th century Britain.

You also have to consider that the words "Apple" or "Cervelo" mean nothing to most people in China, in much the same way that the picture below could be a company logo, someone's signature of sweet and sour king prawn balls with egg fried rice...

[img] [/img]

Different culture, different period in the economic development of a nation. You'd probably have struggled to fit in in 19th century Britain.

Say what you like about the modern practice of "branding" anything that moves, but the origin of branding in retail was an effort by traders in the 19th century to give buyers some reassurance that they were buying unadulterated goods.

Unscrupulous grocers would not have had access to the printing machinery etc. required to counterfeit packaging, so the system worked well and became one of the cornerstones of modern capitalism.

Shibboleth would no doubt prefer to save a few shillings and buy the flour with wood shavings in it though.

This is the country where you can get counterfeit baby milk powder...

[quote=hora ]This is the country where you can get counterfeit baby milk powder...

Counterfeit or tainted/bad? I'm pretty sure it's the latter. I'm also fairly sure when the Chinese discovered this they arrested a load of people and although I can't find out their fate, if, as suggested, their product lead to the deaths from malnutrition of kids, I'm fairly sure they were executed if found guilty.

lol at Shiboleth

if apple means nothing in China why would they set up a whole chain of counterfit stores

The Western brands mean as much to the Chinese as they do to anyone else.

and they want originals as much as we do.
Its not a nation thing to want counterfit goods its just a scally thing, there will alway be people wanting to ponce about with fake goods to enhance their perceived status for a fraction of the cost.
quality, ethics etc dont concern them. same way people buy stolen goods to get the perceived value for a fraction of the cost.

if apple means nothing in China why would they set up a whole chain of counterfit stores

Weren't they selling real Apple products though, just the store was fake?

Genuine Apple products apparently in some they were genuine bought from grey importers but it was unclear according to reports.

But it shows how the chinese love their brands as much as we do.

interesting how the BBC report;
The shops have been told to stop using the logos as Chinese laws prohibit copying the "look and feel" of another company without permission.

Grum, I can't see anything in your link referring to what we're talking about. My understanding of these "urban facts" are based on my experience of working in the print industry for nearly 25 years.

No you'd need to read the book - it's pretty interesting anyway. He goes into quite a bit of detail about it. Sounds bizarre but his account is fairly plausible.

Genuine Apple products apparently in some they were genuine bought from grey importers but it was unclear according to reports.

But it shows how the chinese love their brands as much as we do.

The biggest tourist attraction for Chinese visitors to the UK is Bicester Shopping Village, an upmarket retail park which has outlets for Burberry, Prada and all that sort of stuff.

Dagenham Market doesn't feature on so many itineries, for some reason.

@Chief - no worries. 🙂

Shibboleth.....the FM066....well, sadly I've probably spent more time using it indoors on the rollers than in the real world, but I'm pleased with it so far. Couldn't tell you if it was necessarily any better or worse than the alu Genesis frame I was riding before that or how it would stack up against a top brand carbon frame. But it is a sub 1kg frame and weighs a fraction over 16lb built up. I'm racing it this weekend for the first time....

Rather than the good or bad quality of the Chinese manufacture, I'm more worried by my hamfisted assembly getting the crown race on the fork steerer!? Touch wood..... 😉

Rather than the good or bad quality of the Chinese manufacture, I'm more worried by my hamfisted assembly getting the crown race on the fork steerer!? Touch wood.

If you'd seen how I cack-handed mine onto my PX fork, you'd be less worried. Mallet. Plank. Off we go.

Mr Shibolth

Your style of debating reminds me of listening to my 6-year-old nephew and his friends.

Now now, there is no need to get your knickers in a twist. I was merely pointing out to the novice here that there is no way [b]you[/b] can tell if a counterfeit bike is the same as an original. You seem to think that because its the same shape and has the same stickers it must be the same. Or, if it is the same shape minus the stickers, it still must be the same as an original, but only without the stickers.

I am trying to tell you, before you go and waste your money (which undoubtedly you will, the way you have been wan*ing on about the merits of fake bike frames) on a "fake" bike that you have no way of telling if the bicycle is fit for purpose. In other words I am trying to save you the money and, later down the line, the shame of owning such a bike.

I'm pretty sure that its people like you that are selling on counterfeit bikes as original to poor unsuspecting individuals. Probably you will buy it, all faked up, stickers and all and then be hugely disappointed that its misaligned, things don't fit etc. etc and all the other things that people have already mentioned... then you will feel the shame of wasting your money in such a foolish way. More so as you have been told, but refuse to listen. You will then proceed to try and recoup your costs by passing it off as an original to some unsuspecting member of the public.

I have to commend you on your persistence. I also think you could probably make a really successful bible sales man.

Top Gear on BBC3 right now... driving Chinese copies of Euro cars.

Thus could get interesting now. 😉

@quartz

big difference with fake I-Pad and fake bicycle frame?

..you don't ride an I-Pad, if the I-Pad bricks itself it won't put you in a wheelchair or require a trip to the dentist for expensive treatment 😉

personally, I would be concerned to take an unknown bicycle frame down a steep road hill at 40mph, results could be 'interesting' to say the least?

Might get away with it, might not....welcome to the live experiment?

If you work every day on high end road frames, its actually not hard to know what to look for when examining genuine frames versus fake frames.

Finding paper / newspaper (!), bladder debris, bits of ??? inside the tubeset is not confidence inspiring, especially where the head tube is glued to the downtube. Finding fibreglass or plastic mesh inside the tube set is not confidence inspiring.

Checking frames with fore / aft alignnment 40mm out, is not inspiring.

something I would say from my experience is that some of the "unbranded" frames, that are identical to "branded" frames are often units leaked by OEM suppliers with excess capacity (just like OE groupsets, wheel and finishing kits that regularly wash up on the shore of the on-line re-sellers)

rather than a crude attempt by a counter-fitting gang punting dodgy branded frames through Alibaba Express or Ebay, to screw you out of your money with no regard for your safety on the road

.

you don't ride an I-Pad, if the I-Pad bricks itself it won't put you in a wheelchair or require a trip to the dentist for expensive treatment

Fair point.

I bought a Specialized bike a while ago which had a misaligned rear triangle. Further inspection of the offered replacement revealed that was also on the piss. None of the bikes were any good. Maybe the R+D dept was on the piss as well when that frame was designed.

@quarz

it can happen, have seen it with all the big brands from time to time:- Specialized, Trek, Giant; all taken care of quickly with no fuss / cost

but seen more commonly with smaller brands like Norco, Mythic, Fuji, Kona, etc. lots of time and costs involved, sometimes months to get a resolution.

most importantly with any genuine warranty issue?

How quickly YOUR problem gets dealt with - how quickly YOU get a new frame / bike and back out riding, that is all that matters in these instances (and you don't get palmed off with another of the same problem...but a revised version, or one with proper QC, which you admit SBC failed you in that instance!)

regarding the bigger brands, part of the high "cost" you pay when you buy their frames / bikes is generated by them having a dedicated, domestic distributor with people manning telephones, a warehouse full of replacement parts ready to ship, and procedures in place to deal with these problems when they arise from time to time

Thanks for the genuinely interesting thread. Actual adult debate for the most part. Kept me interested while on hols. Also, not one joke about fake wheel sizes! Highly intrigued about how you patent a shape as the parameters must be so exact that it would almost be impossible to infringe anyway. Unless using exact same moulds materials and techniques in same factory using same engineers! Keep it up best thread for ages

Highly intrigued about how you patent a shape as the parameters must be so exact that it would almost be impossible to infringe anyway

It would be very difficult you’re right. You can register “design rights” (if you’re in the EU you ‘get’ design rights automatically, or you can register the design to get improved protection; I think Cervelo are in Canada where there are no automatic rights) but to be able to make any claims against those rights the design has to be identifiably different to other preceding designs. For example; You can’t take the design of a Venge, move the top tube a few mm and claim that it’s a your new design and register it.

Ultimately though you can have your designs and ideas locked down tighter than a gnats chuff but unless you’re prepared to sue a Chinese company that can disappear overnight in a cloud of falsified paperwork then you are on a hiding to nothing.

Disclaimer for Grum: I am not a patent lawyer, but I know a man who is 😉

Highly intrigued about how you patent a shape as the parameters must be so exact that it would almost be impossible to infringe anyway.

You'd think it would be very difficult Creedy, but Canyon successfully sued Cervelo for copying something so simple as a tapered seat tube - uniform in diametre at the top and flaring out towards the base.

Personally, I'd have said that was a pretty generic and practical solution to increasing stiffness in the BB area. But Canyon successfully argued that they invented it and Cervelo ripped it off.

Cervelo's R5 uses tube profiles that change from their "Squoval" profile at their widest point, down to round at the narrowest point. According to their website, there's a great deal of thought and engineering know-how gone into developing these tube profiles, and to my mind, they're far more unique than a tapered seat tube!

I think what's become abundantly clear from this thread is that the majority of people seem to have been brain-washed to respect corporate branding far more than engineering innovation and intellectual properties.

far more than engineering innovation and intellectual properties.

says the king of knock-offs

Really? I was happy to buy a genuine Cervelo R5 based on the fact that I felt it was the most technically advanced frameset available.

I'm happy to buy cheap Fakely jawbones for mountain biking in because a) They're a cheap disposable item; b) I don't really think there's a great deal of innovation in a pair of plastic-framed sunglasses; and c) I have a genuine pair of Jawbones and several other pairs of Oakleys.

So where does my Pedalforce frame come into this? It's not pretending to be something it's not and it comes from a company with a US presence who do provide some backup, but it's cheap and made in China.

Let's see a pic Aracer, just out of interest... Is it [i]"un homage"[/i] to a frame from a top end manufacturer?

So where does my Pedalforce frame come into this? It's not pretending to be something it's not and it comes from a company with a US presence who do provide some backup, but it's cheap and made in China.

I don't think your pedalforce really comes to this at all. It's not fake, you have the backing of a legitimate company.

I would say you got a great value frame from reputable manufacturer. Still wouldn't call £4-500 cheap but def value.
I can understand the infringements on a design. So the whole top tube as one piece of squovial design for use in bike manufacture. As I've used the squovial shape in steel frame buildings. An immensely strong design which allows load force from all angles needed. Any way eating my 2nd kebab and having 3rd beer 🙂

I'm happy to buy cheap Fakely jawbones for mountain biking in because a) They're a cheap disposable item; b) I don't really think there's a great deal of innovation in a pair of plastic-framed sunglasses; and c) I have a genuine pair of Jawbones and several other pairs of Oakleys.

Also, why not mention your fake Chinese chair? Not a lot of respect for intellectual property there. What's your excuse for that?

@zilog6128

I've been wearing Oakley for many years because I believe in my experience of using and selling many brands, they have the best lens quality and impact protection of any sports sunglasses on the market?

probably the biggest issue I would have with cheap / fake sunglasses is simple; whether its going to provide proper UV protection for your eyes?

and if you take a smash, whether its actually going to protect your eyes or cause damage?

I am typing this, with a 1" scar on my left eyebrow from a "branded" but cheaper pair of clear glasses (used for night riding) that failed in an impact, with the frame actually cutting me open, requiring hospital treatment

probably the biggest issue I would have with cheap / fake sunglasses is simple; whether its going to provide proper UV protection for your eyes?

The DX ones do - someone tested them.

I am typing this, with a 1" scar on my left eyebrow from a "branded" but cheaper pair of clear glasses (used for night riding) that failed in an impact, with the frame actually cutting me open, requiring hospital treatment

I'm amazed the magic power of branding didn't save you. 🙂

Of course you could have spent hundreds on some Oakleys and had the same thing happen.

The DX ones do - someone tested them.

Come on Grum, what the hell is this? surly you know better mate.

Someone tested them. who? Someones brothers friends uncle mates mate? I have read about some of these so called tests and even watched a few, however I have not seen one which has been carried out by a professional with proper equipment.

Also, the same applies here, if one fake pair were to pass a test, given the number of manufacturers out there, there is no way oe could assume that all fakes were safe.

Someones brothers friends uncle mates mate?

It was someone on here. I remember the thread.

as above, it was a proper uv test done in a lab.

didn't the DX ones actually do better in one of the tests, too?

When i'm going downhill on a rough bit of road at possibly 40mph plus i wouldn't want doubt in my mind about my frame and forks.It bothers me about my carbon fork as it seems so light and hollow sounding even though its a top end Easton.

Interesting thread. We see a few copies through the shop, most people are open about what they are, some are oblivious, either way it's no skin off my nose and I think people are allowed to make their own choices. However every dollar that goes into a knock-off is a dollar that isn't going to innovating the next product to be knocked off. If all we ever did was buy cheap copies, we'd all be riding around on basic lugged and plugged carbon frames (if that). it's the margin in the real product that pays for us to be riding such amazing kit, fake, genuine or otherwise.

When i'm going downhill on a rough bit of road at possibly 40mph plus i wouldn't want doubt in my mind about my frame and forks.It bothers me about my carbon fork as it seems so light and hollow sounding even though its a top end Easton.

My mates Ribble fork did come apart going downhill. Bonding came apart at the steerer interface. He took it to Ribble and they told him it wouldn't have happened if he'd have had it serviced! So it can happen to branded parts too.

Here you go testing for Fake Jawbone Lenses.

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/dx-sunglasses-uv400-testing-results ]Clickety Click[/url]

as above, it was a proper uv test done in a lab.

By someone done on here? Right then well that's fine then.

But what kind of science is this? somebody on here tested one set of glasses: Conclusion = all fake oakles must be ok and safe.

Just because one pair has passed a test by "someone on here" (so it must be ok) it does not mean that all fake glasses will pass the same test. Do you think there is only one manufacturer of fake glasses in China?

Does this really your mind at rest? are you happy to take this risk based on this information? If you are well that is great and if you can justify risking your eyes, or those of a child (like some one was doing on here previously) than that is you choice.

Personally I would not take this kind of risk.

Personally I would not take this kind of risk.

It depends why you wear them though.

Most of us as recreational cyclists could ride halfords bikes in Aldi kit and have just as much fun doing so. But mainly we don't. We buy what we like and can afford. I've just bought a mod target wiggo vest from Rapha. Nobody will see it, not even my wife because I look horrific in it. But I'll wear it under my jersey and feel quite happy to do so.

Oakley being any better than a lot of other eyewear manufacturers is just marketing. Good luck to them.

chief 9000: [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/dx-sunglasses-uv400-testing-results ]http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/dx-sunglasses-uv400-testing-results[/url]

no one is suggesting there is only one company manufacturing these. They were referring specifically to the DX versions.

The point being made is that just because somethign is a copy doesn't mean it is functionally inferior.

My car has numerous 'pattern' parts fitted to it. They aren't made or approved by Renault but I trust my life to them 2 or 3 times a week.

Does your car only have parts bought from an authorised main dealer on it?

I do like the 'it might be a childs eyes' line though 🙂