[Closed] Chinese "Replica" Frames

There are 2 massive manufacturers in China that make all Giant, Cervelo, Scott, Trek, Ridley, Colnago and Specialized carbon frames, plus literally hundreds of other brands

Lot of mis-information going on here. There's not just a handfull of manufacturers making everyones bikes:

[i]Ace Bikes, Acoca, Active Cycles, ADK, Boan, C6, Carbon Age, Carbotec, Deda, Giant, GM Carbon, Ideal, Inda, Kenstone, Kinesis, Martec, Merida, Ming Kao, Orbea, Taioku, UCC, Willing, YMA, You Shun.[/i]

There's 24 Chinese maufacturers for you for a start (from BicycleRetailer.com info) and these supply just US based brands, it is not exhaustive, not all make carbon, does not include any that supplly rest of the world, does not include smaller manufacturers - there are many more.

Giant make Giant
Giant make some Trek, rest at their own plants
Merida make Specialized
Giant Taiwan make a lot of Scott.

Carbon frames made in the same factory are all the same

Does anybody actually think that Mr Specialized rings up Mr Merida and say "I want 50,000 FS frames, sort it out for me please when you've got time when you are not making cheap knock-offs". No, the bikes for Mr Specialised will be designed probably in the US to exactly specified parameters - tolerance, layup, materials quality, build quality. They will be prototyped and tested for function and only then will the first run be comissioned under strict quality control. Will Mr Merida make any cheap knock-offs using Specialized specs and technology? Of course not, he is dependant on the Specialized business and wouldn't want to incur their wrath and loss on business. It'll be the smaller manufacturers who will be making these cheaply without the vast knowledge required to make high quality frames.

As for me would I buy cheapy Chinese carbon frames from the big auction site? You bet I wouldn't, I would buy one warrantied from one of the big world manufacturers (like Giant) or at least one that has had major design and quality control input here in the UK (On-One perhaps) so there is support should something go wrong.

chinese fake eggs are popular looks like an egg it just costs 50% to make than a real egg

AWESOME

China does not lead the world in both carbon and composite manufacture.

Amen

And how is a fake with graphics on any different to the same bike without them. Now if the OP was going to sell it on an original I can see an issue there but its visual and nothing else.
Of course he could be like me who takes great pleasure in avoiding paying money if possible and regards those who by an original, when a copy will do the same job, as stupid. Note I didn't say it was the same thing, but will do the same job. Having said that who the F would want to copy something like that Cervelo or even more moronic Oakleys? Look at me, I'm the same as a million other.
Go for it mate although I would go for a blank one as Cervelos are styled by a blind man.

dealt with way too many road customers in the past 2 years who have thought they got a "good deal" buying their frame from alibaba express; a fake Pinarello Dogma, Trek Madone, Specialized Tarmac or whatever it is supposed to actually be?

my experience is usually the customer bringing said frameset to the store, asking my workshop to build it up with some equally dodgy Campag or ZIPP wheels from same website

my mechanics cannot build the bike to required safe quality because the frameset and wheels are very poorly finished and have alignment / tolerance issues. Cabling does not install properly, rear wheel sits skewed in dropout, seat tube angle incorrect for Shimano's front derailleur tolerances, etc.

On some occasions we cannot even install the seat post to the frame because the seat tube has rippled internal diameter not allowing seat post to slide down for clamping up into the workstand!

Customer will then admit where they got the items from, and either attempt to get their money back (good luck?) or find another bike shop willing to take a hacksaw to the items to make them fit together

also had customers bringing their "fake" bikes into the store, asking us to sort out gear shifting or handling issues, only for use to discover all kinds of fitment and alignment problems with our tools, cannot solve problems and send customers on their way with our best wishes for good outcome

would not touch cheap carbon fibre frames or wheels with bargepole.

If you get your hands on one of these cheap framesets, pull the fork off and take a dental mirror and torch, start closely examining the inside of the frameset, then compare to a genuine Specialized / Trek / Giant or even a smaller genuine brand;

its a night/day difference in manufacturing quality and what you see inside the tubing of a cheap frame will actually shock you if you have experience in these matters 😉

always recommend a quality aluminium alloy frameset over cheap CF frameset, any day...

The internal finish of my (genuine) Trek Fuel Ex carbon was rough and ragged as....but never caused any issues.....

On the other hand my HongFu FM066 internal finish is very good, and so far, no issues either.

Am I being cynical when it seems the tales of sub-standard chinese rubbish are mainly told by those who work in the industry....bike shops, importers, etc.....those people who have clear vested interests in rubbishing the competition ....?? Or at least rubbishing this particular type of competition, because its a threat to the (likely) inflated prices we are probably paying for the majority of branded cycling kit at the moment.

If you do your homework, then you can find reputable Chinese suppliers, and it might be naive to think so, but these give the impression they would help sort out any issues post sale. They are after all trying to build their own business. The number of good reports/threads on chinese carbon well outweighs the bad reports you can find on the net.

However, I don't think I'd label up my FM066 or any other unbranded frame with Cervelo or other big brand logos though. And I also don't get that if you don't use your best bike for race day, then when do you use it??

I resent your comment I dont have a vested interest Im just passing on what Ive seen from my experience. you can take it or leave it.
and Im not rubbishing the competition, just pointing out that counterfit frames are illegal.
but yes prices are inflated in the uk, but more to do with the government than the industry.

I said I may have been a bit cynical, not doubting anyone's experience or what they've seen. Counterfeit frames are illegal, but a counterfeit frame does not necessarily mean a rubbish poor quality frame.

All companies need to protect their interests, that all I'm saying, whether that's advising customers of why the genuine thing is worth paying for, or whether its being more secretive about their manufacturing so that its less easily copied or some other means.

Not saying you necessarily did rubbish the competition Sancho, but isn't it a valid stance - seems to be the mainstay of British Politics at least 😉

I have rubbished the frames Ive seen, but cant say thats the same for all the frames and a lot of companies like hong fu manufacture to very high standards.

i just want to know what the OP is going to get Im intrigued

If you buy a blank frame you are (possibly) not breaking the law, but if you buy a branded fake frame then it's illegal. Often big companies such as Nike are more concerned about their logo on an inferior product than the product itself.

There are 2 types of knockoff products:
1 - Exactly the same product but sold illegally out of the factory and
2 - A copy which may or may not be inferior quality and build.

So you pays your money you take your chances. It's morally wrong and illegal to buy fake branded goods, personally I wouldn't do it but it's up to you. I'm not going to preach at you about it. They're a lot cheaper than the genuine ones for sure.

But there is NO guarantee that you're going to get a genuine one and not a cheap dodgy copy regardless of how widely known it is that they come from the same factory.

Tom KP

Wrong and illegal, and you'd cry your tits off you were sold a fake.
You'd be bringing in a fake into the market, you a good few more I guess. that's what causes problems.
Youre supporting the whole fake culture and people actually die when fakes of some kinds get into the market.
When you've bought it, had enough of it will you destroy it, will you flog it on ebay, will it then get passed on to some poor sod for a real one?
And the fact that you own a Cervelo? Ask Cervelo what they think.

Crashing a lot at crits, why how? it happens but not a lot. Use the proper one to get in the points and out of the spills.

This post seems to be going round in circles. Probably because some people have not read important posts.

Mr mtbtomo, has completely missed the point. I am actually wondering if he can read at all. There was discussion over fake items and then you come in with a hongfu comment. Hong fu are not fake the are unbranded you fool. A fake is completely different to a fake for many of the reasons already discussed. Read the posts please!

As an amusing point to this thread, one of my contacts at one of our carbon factories has announced she is leaving today and has cc'd not bcc'd all her contacts in her book.
Quite an eye opener as to who she was making for even for me and certainly pours doubt and stuff on the "x makes for y".
Anyhow.

To summarise:

Poor cyclist who confesses to falling off a lot wants new frame on which to fall off some more.

Asks for opinion about fake branding on Chinese frame. Large response says don't bother, buy a non branded one, your fooling no one and its illegal.

Some say quality may not be as good.

OP rejects any advice not fitting with his own ideas. Laws in the UK only apply if he likes them.

Conclusion: OP really wanted to show off that he could buy a look-a-like branded frame at a cheap price.

I think that just about wraps it up.

Spot on I'd say with that summary.

[img] http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lMAUY2LS5Cw/T0dlae7CKaI/AAAAAAAABIw/v888aC3easA/s1600/Fake+Venge.jp g" target="_blank">http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lMAUY2LS5Cw/T0dlae7CKaI/AAAAAAAABIw/v888aC3easA/s1600/Fake+Venge.jp g"/> [/img]

Mr mtbtomo, has completely missed the point. I am actually wondering if he can read at all. There was discussion over fake items and then you come in with a hongfu comment. Hong fu are not fake the are unbranded you fool. A fake is completely different to a fake for many of the reasons already discussed. Read the posts please!

Why be so aggressive/rude? Some people have generalised that all cheap Chinese carbon frames are rubbish and that they 'wouldn't touch them with a barge pole etc', not just the fakes. Read the posts please!

Alternative thread summary.

OP asks for advice for idea he has is just kicking about.

Near entire population of forum breaks down in to a seething mass fury, comparable to an Orwellian 2 minutes of hate, and spew forth bile about Chinese carbon.

Tales, some apocryphal and some not, are told about the dangers of Cheap frames.

Counterfeit goods are all universally condemned to be immoral and the multinational companies that pollute the third world, use child labour, avoid taxation and work purely for the benefit of making rich men richer are venerated as the gods of Western society whose branding is moral good.

Consensus is blank frames are preferable.

What worries me is what if someone passes off a unbranded/copy or even (never know/not the end of the world in that case) a real factory frame through the backdoor as a high end frame in a secondhand sale?

So for that reason I think it should be bloody frowned upon. As for Chinese carbon frames through direct purchase? Why not? Its the stickering up thats the no-no.

Personally I think the smaller importer/sellers frame/fork prices as being too close to landed-cost of self-purchase to make it even worth your while especially if you factor in the hassle of breakage/lack of warranty support.

The only time I can see it worthwhile to buy direct is if you are 110% certain it is from the same factory/same production line as a T1000/top end frame maker stuff. Then I'd pay £500 for a £1500 retail frame. Only then.

Otherwise why bother with something that 'looks' similar? **** pretending to people. What next? A 330i badge on a 318 Beemer?

What next? A 330i badge on a 318 Beemer?

Nah, a beemer driver usually orders it de-badged (but you can always tell the model by the size and width of wheels and tyres) 😉

Alternative thread summary.

OP asks for advice for idea he has is just kicking about.

Near entire population of forum breaks down in to a seething mass fury, comparable to an Orwellian 2 minutes of hate, and spew forth bile about Chinese carbon.

That's getting a bit closer to the truth Jon. As I said before, this frame isn't really on my shopping list, I'm just interested in what people's thoughts are. If I was to choose something like the S5 replica, it would be down to the fact that it's a brilliant aero frame design with the perfect geometry for crit racing. The only reason to choose a stickered one would be that it looks flippin cool! Cervelo graphic designs at the moment are some of the best in the business.

As for me being a poor rider that crashes a lot, well, luckily (touch wood) I've not got tangled up in any of the big stacks yet, but in the series I race, I've seen 2 big pile ups that have resulted in a lot of very expensive carbon splinters. I don't want my best bike involved in that, so for the crits, I use last season's race bike with Ultegra wheels.

brant - Member

As an amusing point to this thread, one of my contacts at one of our carbon factories has announced she is leaving today and has cc'd not bcc'd all her contacts in her book.

Do you plan an exposé Brant? Or are you going to respect your contact's privacy?... I'm sure there are many that wouldn't... 😉

...And just to keep this debate going in the right direction, what are people's thoughts on this?

[img] [/img]

Hong Fu are one of the most respected of the Chinese manufacturers that supply direct, and this is their latest lightweight road frame and forks.

Obviously, it's blank, but it's almost identical to my genuine R5. I believe Cervelo have patented the "Squoval" tube profile and one or two other features. So would it be perfectly OK to import this bike?

OK, on the face of it, it looks like a very traditional design, but if you know the R&D that went into the original, it's arguable that this is a far more shameless ripoff than simply printing counterfeit logo.

Well, I want one - how much is it?

🙂

The seatstays look like pieces of string. Is there a weight limit on riding one?

The seatstays are identical to the R5... And yes, they are pencil thin. I was told that the stays don't take much structural load - their roll is more triangulation rather than load-bearing. The massive chainstays provide the strength.

I would imagine you could get this frame for around £400, you'd have to email them for a quote...

Look familiar?

[URL= http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx198/V5C/IMG_2146_zps924b6ce0.jp g" target="_blank">http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx198/V5C/IMG_2146_zps924b6ce0.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Do you plan an exposé Brant? Or are you going to respect your contact's privacy?...

What's there to expose? Just because names are in a contact list doesn't necessarily mean they are actual customers. I've got several famous guitarists in my contact list - have they actually bought one of my amplifiers, unfortunately not, they are just there because I've made contact at some point.

How do we know that's not just a Chinese frame with stickers on it?
Was this thread just an elaborate way to set up the knock off frame you'd already bought as genuine, prior to a classified post?
😈

(Joking, btw....)

that hongfu is the same one in the picture

[img] [/img]

rumour has it they are shite...but hey its the bike industry i can only go on rumours and an email from a guy who said they like the frame but dont survive a CEN test

holy **** i managed to upload a picture

A 330i badge on a 318 Beemer?

That, along with an M3 badge has been done loads. Whats better is a 316 badge on an M3 and the look on the saxo boys faces after they pull up for a race.

rumour has it they are shite

Good at spreading rumours these industry types, aren't they... 😉

Ive heard rumours that they're excellent... I'd rather believe they're not as good as my proper one, but the point I'm making is that there is just as much plagiarism in this frame - that the STW Massive seem to think is OK - as there is in an S5-esque frame with a Cervelo logo printed on the side.

So; what if the 'real' frames are simply liveried up and skilfully marketed versions of the 'off the peg' product the Chinese company supplies to anyone? Are western companies really doing allthat 'R+D', or is all that work actually being done in China, and the end product simply sold on here for a huge mak up? Is the cycle industry really any different to the clothing industry, or the consumer electronics industry? What are we actually paying for; a product or a brand?

Shibboleth; is that a 'real' Eames chair, or a 'fake?

It's real... It's a fake Park workstand though... 😉

Those Hong Fu road frames are $730 ish dollars for the SL version,under 1kg, less for the heavier one.

It's real...

Well, I bit the bullet and a big pallet arrived yesterday. First impressions are that it is indistinguishable from a Vitra/Herman Miller version. Quality and finish is spot on and the proportions are exact.

I don't think it's frothy Ive found it highly amusing at times and am now a lot more aware of differing attitudes to knock off frames.

Shibboleth; is that a 'real' Eames chair, or a 'fake?

Show me the person who would try so hard to justify buying a fake bike frame and would buy an original Eames chair.

Show me the person who would try so hard to justify buying a fake bike frame and would buy an original Eames chair.

It's not a 'licenced' Eames Chair, I was joking... the workstand is real though! 😀

I was joking

Hilarious.

It's not a 'licenced' Eames Chair, I was joking

I'm releived to hear that. The Eames chairs are a perfect example of how companies rip people off; a friend has had both a 'real' chair and a 'fake, and the two were indistinguishable. More than likely made in the same factory. He sold the 'real' one at a sizeable profit, and kept the 'fake'.

I suspect that the same practice happens with bike frames; companies know that we are mugs enough to pay massive premiums for 'brands', so they hike the proces of goods up to whatever they can get away with. All so people can say 'I've got a genuine X product'. And whilst there undoubtedly are cheap inferior knock offs out there, a lot of the 'this product isn't as good as a 'real' version' is more than likely just bullshit spread by those with a vested interest in making as much profit as possible.

The Eames chairs are a perfect example of how companies rip people off; a friend has had both a 'real' chair and a 'fake, and the two were indistinguishable. More than likely made in the same factory. He sold the 'real' one at a sizeable profit, and kept the 'fake'.

They're not made in the same factory. The European licenced version is made by Vitra in Germany and costs about £3600-£4000. The "originals" are made by Herman Miller in the US.

Mine is exact in every way, but made in China for a quarter of the price. I'd sat the base is cast from an original, even the clips that attach the pads to the shells are identical. I'd lusted after one for over 20 years, so I'm quite familiar with it, and I can also confirm that it's indistinguishable apart from lacking the Eames signature sticker on the base.

"Made in China" doesn't mean "poor quality". It often means better quality than something made in Europe.

Well, the chair was apparently identical in every way to the 'original'. Just like yours it seems. Cheaper labour costs aside, how can one identical product justifiably cost many times more?

I have a cheap pair of Aldi or whatever cycling shoes, they cost about £18. The sole pattern is identical to a pair of Specialized ones. The uppers may be an older 'Specialized' design. The specialized version is £60-70. Why?

Have not read every link, but a branded fake frame is a trademark, copyright infringement.

I found a guy faking t shirts from a famous road brand. Trading standards offered to seize all his stock and equipment.

Technically you could have your frame taken away. But I doubt it will happen.

Have not read every link, but a branded fake frame is a trademark, copyright infringement.

A frame that copies patented design cues is also a copyright infringement.
But for some reason, people on here think that's fine...

The reason the unbranded R5 copy from Deng Fu would be unlikely to be confiscated is that very few customs officials would recognise the similarities unless it's festooned with logos.

And it seems, that on that basis, this is where we find the dividing line between STW's double standards: people are happy to buy, use or tolerate fakes, as long as they're faked in a way that makes it unlikely for them to ever be held accountable for committing a crime.

And it seems, that on that basis, this is where we find the dividing line between STW's double standards: people are happy to buy, use or tolerate fakes, as long as they're faked in a way that makes it unlikely for them to ever be held accountable for committing a crime.