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It's/they've done about 40,000 miles at a guess. I weigh 67kg.
tick tock tick tock tick tock bang! Common sense my arse.
So when faced with an example (we've actually provided a fair few in this thread), of your fears of failure not being founded, your only argument is 'give it time' or 'you got lucky' ?
one example = anecdote
lots of examples = data
so far there are lots of examples of things being fine.
there are very few examples of instant-explodo-bar syndrome.
maybe, just **maybe** you're worrying over nothing.
But you let the doubt creep in for 2 years, knowing that you had a few knocks. You clearly don't know what you are doing and just relying on pot luck.
Or he's making decisions based on his own experience of how infrequently his bars fail in similar circumstances and his knowledge of the use they've had, and he's just less scared than you are.
Do you worry this much over other components?
my point is that if carbon was inherently unsafe
I don't remember saying carbon was inherently unsafe anywhere. Perhaps you can recall where I said that?
maybe, just **maybe** you're worrying over nothing.
But it wasn't me who was worrying that their 10 year old lightweight bars might let go. He said it himself, they were bothering him for 2 years.
I don't worry for one second about my own bars.
maybe, just **maybe** you're worrying over nothing.
As I said, I'm not the one worrying.
moshimonster - MemberI don't remember saying carbon was inherently unsafe anywhere. Perhaps you can recall where I said that?
You've kind of implied it, by refusing to use it, no?
I don't remember saying carbon was inherently unsafe anywhere. Perhaps you can recall where I said that?
I just don't think it's the safest option for a mass produced bar for your average weekend warrior.
I don't trust carbon bars from any manufacturer
FWIW I won't run ANY carbon bar on my own bike, branded or otherwise. I have a lot of experience of using carbon in motorsport and seen too many unexplained failures to trust it in certain applications - and small diameter bars with large bending moments isn't an application I would be happy to trust with carbon.
I'm not convinced mtb mass manufactured parts are going to be consistent enough. There are enough broken branded parts around as evidence of this and the lighter you go, the risk increases exponentially
Perhaps I mis-understood those remarks, you clearly don't consider it safe enough for your use.
But maybe my extrapolation to you not considering it safe in general wasn't fair.
You've kind of implied it, by refusing to use it, no?
I actually said it's because in this case (bars) I prefer to use the obvious alternative material i.e. alloy.
That's not the same as stating that carbon is unsafe. I'm just not convinced that the bike industry is on the whole professional enough to manufacture consistently reliable carbon bars and especially not for £14 retail. I also don't see a massive inherent advantage in having carbon bars. Carbon frame yes I can see a real advantage, but bars no - just more risk.
There are enough broken carbon bars from the big name brands to put me off. Some people on this thread are even implying that branded carbon bars are even more likely to break than totally random non-branded ones. When I buy a bar I always take the trouble to hunt for failure stories, which is easy with branded bars. Some people have suggested that there are few or no reported cases of failure of cheap unknown Chinese bars, but which cheap unknown bars are those? All of them?
But maybe my extrapolation to you not considering it safe in general wasn't fair.
There are safer alternatives as I said above. That does not imply that carbon is inherently unsafe. That would be completely ridiculous coming from my own background where carbon is routinely used for almost everything!
You just don't think its safe enough for you to use, because you don't trust the industry to manufacture it well enough. Fair enough, just out of interest, do you ever see that changing, what would it take to persuade you otherwise?
Are we all friends again now? 🙂
Were we ever not?
I love all my fellow Single****ters, even the ones I disagree with 🙂
You just don't think its safe enough for you to use, because you don't trust the industry to manufacture it well enough. Fair enough, just out of interest, do you ever see that changing, what would it take to persuade you otherwise?
When I stop seeing loads of user reviews of broken carbon bars. Every time I've considered the idea (yes I am open-minded), the user reviews have shown a lot more failures than the equivalent alloy version. Maybe you can demonstrate otherwise - genuinely interested.
Do you think that maybe carbon is not as suitable for home (read 'ham fisted') fitting as alu bars and that's likely the issue with most broken carbon bars? I certainly do which is why I'm happy enough using them. As an engineer with presumably excellent mechanical sympathy I'd expect the same for you 😉
(FWIW, I've seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon)
I'm not convinced I'm on moshimonster's christmas card list!
But you let the doubt creep in for 2 years, knowing that you had a few knocks. You clearly don't know what you are doing and just relying on pot luck. It might run out one day for you and you're just stacking up the odds out of ignorance. And yet you have the cheek to question my own common sense.
As amedias said it's not pot luck. I know the exact history of these bars from the moment they reached my hands, there is no ignorance in play. The only reference I can find to a failure online was someone over tightening their stem and cracking them. I wouldn't buy second hand handlebars, but plenty of people do. It's about calculated risk. I'm not sitting at home head in hands because I'm paranoid my handlebars are going to break! That they're carbon is also irrelevant, I'd be replacing aluminium bars of the same age/use quite honestly.
There are safer alternatives as I said above.
Have you got that evidence yet?
nemesis - I agree, but just don't see the point in running them. I also weigh 88 kg and find many carbon bars scarily flexible even in the shop. I'm not saying that means they will break, but it's not a feeling I like.
(FWIW, I've seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon)
Same here, both via online reports and through workshops.
But then, as alluded to earlier, the percentage of carbon bars out there is smaller (for now).
But I'd still say the failure rate is no higher than any other material form what I've seen.
There's also a tendency for people to report it more when a carbon bar fails, partly because they are often more expensive so people are grumpier when there is a failure, and partly due to the 'OMG carbonz sux, it snaps' brigade.
FWIW, I've seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon
Yep, likewise.
I'm not convinced I'm on moshimonster's christmas card list!
He's back! But seriously I'm out of this thread now for good. As I said, and didn't follow my own advice, it's pointless arguing with idiots on the internet (me included because I should know better).
Enjoy having the last word as I'm sure you will insist, but I won't be reading it.
He's back! But seriously I'm out of this thread now for good. As I said, and didn't follow my own advice, it's pointless arguing with idiots on the internet (me included because I should know better).Enjoy having the last word as I'm sure you will insist, but I won't be reading it.
Jees, good job, biscuits had just ran out!
Oh, I guess the truce is over again... 🙁
biscuits had just ran out
amateur...
Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
it's pointless arguing with idiots on the internet
depends if you enjoy it or not 😈
Bets on how long before he returns...!? Or was that a flounce?
Now he's gone though, I do agree with his basic point. I wouldn't use the bars in the OP's question. I'd use carbon bars from a manufacturer (Chinese direct or otherwise) with a good rep that I could at least do some research on though.
(Hi moshi, we know you're looking 🙂 )
I would, but I'd buy from a reputable company (in China), which is basically saying that I wouldn't I guess!
So basically the same! But if someone gave me a pair of the bars in the OP's link I'd give 'em a go!
[quote=moshimonster] I've got a 1st class and masters degree in mech eng. plus 20 years experience working directly with structures, including carbon. So I'd say I know at least as much as you do about them. I certainly don't need a patronising ladybird book lecture from you about how two sheets of carbon separated by a bonded lightweight honeycomb core make the the resultant structure so much stronger. I'm sure you know that such a structure requires a decent section to work efficiently, typically a quarter inch core. These carbon bars are not such a construction and the primary load is a pure bending load.
You describe my comments as patronising? 😯
Carbon bars are not sandwich construction, that was just an illustration - a bar works in just the same way as a sandwich construction, with one side in tension the other in compression (clearly that is a simplification, with the force actually varying from tension to compression around the tube). No core needed, as the tubular shape constrains the outer surfaces in just the same way that the web on an I beam allows that to resist bending forces through tensile and compression stress in the top and bottom parts of the beam. You do understand how an I beam works? Well a tubular "beam" like a handlebar resists bending loads in much the same way. You've got a 1 1/4" section rather than the 1/4" core of your sandwich!
It's easy to show that it's the structure resisting the bending load, rather than the composite itself by cutting up a bar and seeing how low the bending stiffness is for the material when it is no longer in a tubular shape. If you have no old carbon bars to cut up, then the experiment works just as well for alu (which is no better at resisting bending forces anyway).
[quote=moshimonster ]It's also arrogant and unpleasant to mock posters for actually having some relevant experience. I only bring it up when I'm being patronised by someone who clearly doesn't know what they are talking about.
Presumably you don't think I know what I'm talking about? It has already been done, but here's a handy link for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
my qualifications are irrelevant to this discussion - I'm basing my arguments on facts, not qualifications.
Though presumably you won't be reading any of this anyway, will you...
Though back to the OP, I think I'm with moshi in being uncomfortable using a £14 unbranded carbon bar which you have no idea at all about the provenance. Because he is correct in his argument about the risk - you have no knowledge at all about those, so it is all risk, whereas with a branded component (whether western or Chinese branded) there is a certain degree of traceability which reduces the risk by providing you with some knowledge about the reliability.
I'm not sure anyone's specifically disputed that point have they? Where I have issue is when that's extrapolated to either all carbon, or all carbon that comes from China/isn't from a 'big' Western brand.
[quote=njee20 ]That they're carbon is also irrelevant, I'd be replacing aluminium bars of the same age/use quite honestly.
Well if we're going there, personally I'd be replacing similar alu bars a lot sooner. If the composite bars haven't received a knock I'm not seeing a major reason to ever replace them simply due to amount of use. Plenty of alu bars out there which have been in use for far longer than your carbon ones, as I don't think most roadies would ever consider changing their bars apart from after a crash or if they want a different shape - I've certainly never thought about replacing mine, despite them being lighter than most carbon bars (though the current ones are only about 4yo, and 10+yo ones on my previous bike only get used on the trainer at the moment).
One of the reasons I've not replaced them sooner is that I really like the shape (anatomic drops), and they don't do them any more! VR/round just aren't as comfy IMO.
As I said, I'm not paranoid about them, hence not having replaced them to date, nor do I expect them to fail (indeed I'll sell them with a clear conscience). It's just a peace of mind thing. I'm happy that I'm not dicing with death every time I sling a leg over the bike!
or are you...?
Idiot
🙂
Well yes I am, but that's nothing to do with the bars being about to explode.
[quote=njee20 ]nor do I expect them to fail (indeed I'll sell them with a clear conscience). It's just a peace of mind thing.
Intriguing. So you'll have peace of mind that they won't fail on somebody else's bike, but not on yours?
Singletrack - 1
Moshie(engineer) - 0
😉
Intriguing. So you'll have peace of mind that they won't fail on somebody else's bike, but not on yours?
It's a risk perception thing isn't it? Again! I don't genuinely think they're about to break. I just think 'y'know, these have been on here for a long time, they're fairly light, I've clattered countless potholes, they've been subjected to the rigours of airport baggage handlers, perhaps I ought to change them'. If I put them on eBay and someone else decides they're happy to take a punt on a pair of second hand carbon bars that isn't my problem. I'm not going to lie about their age, or deceive.
nemesis - Member(FWIW, I've seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon)
Me too- I've even folded a steel one 😆 Never broken a carbon one despite hammering some (as in, bike falling off chairlift, outliving 2 frames) but bent 2 alu ones. Which I suppose is 100% of all the alu ones I've used for any length of time on anything bar a road bike.
small update for anyone that is still interested....
Off the back of this discussion and my previous non-death experience with Chinese carbon bars I decided to take it one step further and put my life on the line* in the name of Science!
I have acquired a pair of China's finest [b]fake [/b]Bontrager RXL bars**, they are currently on the front of my bike and have had one outing already.
On first inspection they appear very very similar to the real ones, slight variation in the cosmetic layer, but then there will be between individual bars anyway. Wall thickness appears the same, weight is 22g heavier than the real ones, and the decals state 15mm rise, when in fact they are flat - whoops. If it were not for the decal error I do not think anyone would be able to tell the difference visually unless they were very familiar with them.
I'm basically going to use them for my normal riding until either
A> They break
B> They make sufficiently bad noises that I get scared and remove them
C> I forget they are fake.
This is simply an experiment on my part, I do not condone buying counterfeit goods, so please leave all moral arguments aside, and no need to call me an idiot, I've been an idiot for a while now, I have a robust coping mechanism for it.
Stay tuned!
* maybe
** chosen because I also have 2 real pairs to compare with, well I hope they are real...
and the decals state 15mm rise, when in fact they are flat - whoops
There is the possibility that these are genuine and the reason for cheapyness is because they are mislabeled hence QC reject.
Regards weight quite often items will deviate from the manufacturers quoted weights, check weighweenies listings for comparisons.
I have been running a cheap carbon flat bar for a while now with no issues still waiting for it to explode in a flaming ball of fire and take me with it.
or maybe they got hold of a load of misprinted decals and slapped them on some crappy explodo-bars, who knows! Anyway that discussion has been done to death already on this thread 🙂
I'll let you know if I die.
can i bagsy your bikes if you do die?
You wouldn't want them, they're all 26ers
All i own 😉
Regards weight quite often items will deviate from the manufacturers quoted weights, check weighweenies listings for comparisons.
And Bontrager are particularly guilty of that!
I'm still not dead yet...