[Closed] Cheap Chinese carbon bars and titanium skewers. Any good?

I've got a 1st class and masters degree in mech eng

BOOM, there it is again! Shame we don't have signatures, you could just add that, everyone would know that you can't ever be wrong then.

but I'm clearly with the majority on here in considering that branded Chinese products (from companies with a track record and good customer service) are no more risky than western branded products.

I have nothing against Chinese manufacture. I was just responding to the original question about a "carbon" bar of totally unknown origin

Then bending load on a bar does not require the carbon composite to take a bending load ..

bland (a few posts up) has the answer.

I'm off to aliexpress with £12.77 in my hand.

So are you basically saying then Moshi that you think the entire bike industry is wrong for using and choosing Carbon to make bars?

If it's so fundamentally wrong as you suggest then that's a big error, one we would also expect to be reflected by the failure rate.

Or perhaps despite your knowledge, there are actually people out there with a better understanding than you, or the alternative being that you're just wrong and your fears are unfounded?

You seems to be swinging around between talking about carbon in general* and your specific thoughts about cheap chinese carbon**.

*which you don't trust
**which you trust even less

If * is unfounded then perhaps ** is too?

No conclusion to take from this but just for the record .. I've seen fake (or more accurately 'style-aping') frames being made in the same Chinese factory that makes some of the most reputed kit and frames out there.

This is the source of so much misunderstanding in this area, it's a difference in culture that means IP and views of what a product 'is' are quite different. There's more to it than fake vs real, branded vs unbranded.

Its very true, small numbers of Chinese invested massively in Carbon technologies when we were still making everything out of billet alloy or welding steel pipes together. They have the technology, however they have so little clue as to what to do with it in terms of design its scary. This is where western designers come in and provide something amazing looking that they produce in their factory to the specific requirements. You see the chinese can do this and do it well, let them go their own way and design something themselves and thats where it all goes wrong!

The catalog may contain tubes of different shape, size, diameter, weave, carbon quality, inserts, clamps, bearing cases, etc etc, this is what they sell. Its then upto the bike company to chose who to give their design to for production. Fake or real, well some will be over runs on teh genuine product, other factories will have now sprung up that will be less reputible and they will copy others designs using their product as a mould.

BOOM, there it is again! Shame we don't have signatures, you could just add that, everyone would know that you can't ever be wrong then.

Does it piss you off that someone might actually know more than you about a certain subject? I tend to only comment on things I know something about. So what are your credentials to put me right? Hairdresser, insurance salesman, cheap carbon bar survivor?

Of course it doesn't, it just amuses me that you're turning it into top trumps when clearly you don't really have any experience of this specific use case, and as amedias said either the industry is wrong (entirely possible, although why haven't all the carbon bars out there broken? Or at least a significant proportion) or your experience perhaps doesn't hold as much relevance as you want it to.

Aracer disputed your point, your defense was to list your credentials (so as to infer that that makes you right and him wrong). It makes you look silly IMO.

As I said previously I've never used cheap carbon bars or any other cheap carbon parts other than a frame and some rims, I've used lots of expensive carbon bars (and other parts) though!

I've got a 1st class and masters degree in mech eng

-1 credibility point each time you say this. Argue with intelligent comments and verifiable facts, not internet bluster and paper waving.

Or shall we all just state our qualifications and the one with the most wins by default?

Does it piss you off that someone might actually know more than you about a certain subject?

Does it cross your mind that you might not know as much as you think you do?
Or that your experience might not be relevant to the situation?
Or that it might be out of date with current techniques and capabilities?

So what are your credentials to put me right? Hairdresser, insurance salesman, cheap carbon bar survivor?

And trying to goad someone into out-qualificationising you as a come-back makes you looke even sillier.

Bland, it's true that much of the actual lay-up design process is with the Chinese factories, not in all cases but more so than many may expect. My comment was more about not judging factories entirely on what they make for who, good and less-good stuff can come out of the same door. What the 'brand' brings is the understanding of what+why and good design and testing comes from that.
Costing stuff up based on route to market can representative but can miss out those other things that a brand brings to the end product (and the cost of it) and that's where brand values can differ.

I really would like to see someone take on the challenge of a proper test...

I can't read the [url= http://singletrackworld.com/reviews/category/handlebars/ ]reviews here[/url] as I'm not a Premier member, but I think it's safe to assume that not a single one of them mentions any specific figures for deflection under load or stress cycles to failure.
It's all vague nonsense about "impeccable performance and engineering" and "Solid, sweepy bars with just enough damping".
Is it really just coincidence that the Chinese manufacturers don't advertise in STW and never get their products reviewed?

So are you basically saying then Moshi that you think the entire bike industry is wrong for using and choosing Carbon to make bars?

No, I can understand why they do it i.e. competitive stiffness/weight ratio. Same basic reason it's used in motorsport. I just don't think it's the safest option for a mass produced bar for your average weekend warrior. That's my personal choice based on my personal experience and none of the drivel I've bothered to read on this thread has changed my opinion.

The OP asked for an opinion on buying a totally unknown carbon bar from a random ebay seller. I suggested it would be a risky experiment, but some of you guys seem to think it's a good idea. Good luck with that!

All I read here between the lines here is reverse-brand-snobbery of the highest order and a gung-ho attitude toward experimenting with cheap unknown critical bike parts. No wonder they nickname this place single****!

As I said previously I've never used cheap carbon bars or any other cheap carbon parts other than a frame and some rims, I've used lots of expensive carbon bars (and other parts) though!

You seem to be condoning it though, or just arguing for the sake of it. Anyway it's getting tedious this thread, time to move on.

Of course I'm condoning it, because I'm not so narrow minded as to think that unless it's got an expensive logo on it there's a risk it'll explode and send carbon shards straight to your heart.

Thousands of these products get sold, if the failure rate was high there would be many many documented instances of it. There aren't.

-1 credibility point each time you say this. Argue with intelligent comments and verifiable facts, not internet bluster and paper waving.

Or shall we all just state our qualifications and the one with the most wins by default?

You're the one who was questioning my experience and had the cheek to try to patronise me with your own basic knowledge of structures. I guess I'm just pissing in the wind.

Is it really just coincidence that the Chinese manufacturers don't advertise in STW and never get their products reviewed?

If you dig out a bike magazine from the mid to late 90's you will find loads of adverts for parts from Chinese manufacturers, they were commonly advertising anodised alloy parts with terrible adverts, no easy way of buying them and pretty crap designs. These are the factories that then went on to produce items for the big brands and hence stopped advertising in such a way as it was fruitless for them. Instead they took their product catalogs to the big Taiwanese bike Expos and sold their skills to brands from the west, or the likes of Superstar/Planet X to make stuff for them direct.

Buying direct is a calculated risk, the bar that the OP linked to in my eyes is the best of a bad bunch as its not trying to be something it isnt so that suggests to me its an over run, however mine is going on an XC rig as oppose to a alps bashing machine

I've never used cheap carbon bars or any other cheap carbon parts other than a frame and some rims

FWIW i tend to agree but it makes no sense logically

Of course I'm condoning it, because I'm not so narrow minded as to think that unless it's got an expensive logo on it there's a risk it'll explode and send carbon shards straight to your heart.

Thousands of these products get sold, if the failure rate was high there would be many many documented instances of it. There aren't.

Okay that's enough of this thread for me. I'm done arguing about it with internet armchair engineers.

The OP asked for an opinion on buying a totally unknown carbon bar from a random ebay seller.

Indeed only trust it on the trivial bits
FWIW i tend to agree but it makes no sense logically

I wouldn't not use it for bars, just haven't thus far. I'm eyeing up a seatpost at the moment as my (expensive) New Ultimate one is a smidge short, and I don't want to pay £160 for a new one!

Okay that's enough of this thread for me. I'm done arguing about it with internet armchair engineers.

Or, you could dispute what I've said with evidence, not your prejudices. I'm not pretending to be an engineer, armchair, chartered or otherwise, I'm just applying some common sense.

No, I can understand why they do it i.e. competitive stiffness/weight ratio. Same basic reason it's used in motorsport. I just don't think it's the safest option for a mass produced bar for your average weekend warrior

Well weekend warriors as you put it would seem to be a great use case, if it's stiffer and stronger than alternative materials then weekend warriors with low to moderate load scenarios would be a great place to lose some weight with no loss of strength or expectation of extreme load.

If you really think it's not the best material due to inherent drawbacks then the place you really should be advocating not using it is in pro and competitive use, where the loads are higher and the risk of a failure greater both in physical harm, and in lost ranking are not enough to counter the small weigh penalty. Yet pro competition us is exactly where carbon is used most heavily, where it provides a genuine advantage.

if it was such a poor choice and a big risk all the pro teams would be falling back on overbuilt aluminium just for safety.

That's my personal choice based on my personal experience and none of the drivel I've bothered to read on this thread has changed my opinion

But your experiences are not of carbon bars, cheap or otherwise, nor have you presented any reasonable justification other than 'I don't trust carbon'

Which is a fine reason, just stop trying to make out that it's because you know they are inferior. You don't.

The OP asked for an opinion on buying a totally unknown carbon bar from a random ebay seller. I suggested it would be a risky experiment, but some of you guys seem to think it's a good idea. Good luck with that!

Did you read my earlier comments about taking that risk purely out of curiosity, as I was being open minded enough to actually have a look, rather than assuming all the unsupported here-say was right. I was totally prepared for them to break on the first ride. But they haven't they remained surprisingly in tact despite some abuse.

All I read here between the lines here is reverse-brand-snobbery of the highest order

That's a load of twaddle, if you looked at Njees bikes, or mine, or plenty of others you'd find plenty of posh branded stuff as well. You can't accuse someone of reverse brand snobbery when they purchase and use some of the expensive branded bits as well!

It's not about brand snobbery, reverse or otherwise, it's about recognising that good products don't have to be expensive or have a particular sticker on them.

You're the one who was questioning my experience and had the cheek to try to patronise me with your own basic knowledge of structures. I guess I'm just pissing in the wind.

er, if you read the thread, I haven't revealed anything about my knowledge of structures, basic or otherwise, and I don't think I made any patronising commens? perhaps you have confused me with another poster?

I was questioning you because you were playing the 'I'm an engineer so I know better' card. I see no reasoned arguments, facts or verifiable data or evidence from your comments, but lots of 'I know better, trust me, I'm an Engineer'.

I also have qualifications, but I'm not using them to try and put down other posters, and I won't rise to you paperwork one-uppery it's arrogant and unpleasant.

Or, you could dispute what I've said with evidence, not your prejudices. I'm not pretending to be an engineer, armchair, chartered or otherwise, I'm just applying some common sense.

I don't see the point. You obviously think you know better and I can clearly see that nothing I say is going to make any difference. As for you applying some common sense, a lot of your posts in this thread imply a total lack of. But I'm certainly not going to argue about that either!

er, if you read the thread, I haven't revealed anything about my knowledge of structures, basic or otherwise, and I don't think I made any patronising commens? perhaps you have confused me with another poster?

My apologies, I did confuse you with another poster.

As for you applying some common sense, a lot of your posts in this thread imply a total lack of.

I'll bite then. How am I exhibiting a "total lack of common sense"?

You obviously think you know better and I can clearly see that nothing I say is going to make any difference.

You're probably right, because you've not got any first hand experience of the products being discussed, and you're dismissing them entirely as dangerous, risky, whatever. As you have absolutely no idea about that I have indeed considered your opinion on this matter as worthless. Until you give any evidence to the contrary why should I, or anyone, give any credence to your opinion? And I don't mean a piece of paper.

I also have qualifications, but I'm not using them to try and put down other posters, and I won't rise to you paperwork one-uppery it's arrogant and unpleasant.

It's also arrogant and unpleasant to mock posters for actually having some relevant experience. I only bring it up when I'm being patronised by someone who clearly doesn't know what they are talking about. Your post above is full of holes, but I'm not going to get involved in yet another pointless internet argument.

I don't see the point. You obviously think you know better and I can clearly see that nothing I say is going to make any difference

I think you're totally missing the point.

We are open minded about it, and everything we can see, and have seen suggests that carbon and chinese carbon is OK.

You seem convinced it isn't, but have no real basis for that.

I (and I'm sure Njee as well) would be the first to welcome some data and tests to actually show either way, but we want evidence and data, not hand waving and unfounded worrying.

yet another pointless internet argument.

They're not pointless, arguments provide amusement, fire the brain, and sometimes even reveal points of view and ideas you hadn't considered. Mostly this one is just providing amusement at the moment 🙂

Indeed, such data would be great, and actually it would be really interesting to know if it was genuinely inferior.

I have indeed considered your opinion on this matter as worthless.

I can see that and the feeling is entirely mutual, so there's no point in discussing it any further.

The ironic thing is that you keep talking about your "experience", but you appear to have none that is wholly relevant to this situation. You've not ever seen the product, let alone tested, analysed or even used it in any capacity.

Can you answer, simply, why they are unsafe? Not opinion, which is all you've proffered.

You seem convinced it isn't, but have no real basis for that.

That's not what I actually wrote if you bothered to read.

You've not ever seen the product, let alone tested, analysed or even used it in any capacity.

The problem with the bar the OP linked to is that literally nobody knows anything about it, not even which country it came from. But your common sense suggests that's okay then. Why not give it go on your own bike?

I would without worry actually, but I have a lighter and wider bar already, so no point.

I've also said that I'd generally buy from a 'branded' seller rather than indiscriminate eBay sellers.

Did you read my earlier comments about taking that risk purely out of curiosity..... I was totally prepared for them to break on the first ride

I did actually and I was surprised. I guess I'm more risk averse than you when it comes to bars.

Well obviously you are, as you've said you'd 'consider' using a DH rated bar for XC riding!

if it was such a poor choice and a big risk all the pro teams would be falling back on overbuilt aluminium just for safety.

I don't think you understand racing then.

As in motorsport, pros want to win and are prepared to take considerable risks to do so. Carbon is used extensively in F1 suspension, but unfortunately it sometimes breaks unexpectedly because it's designed on the ragged edge with minimal safety margin. I've had to deal with some massive accidents in testing and the odd one in races, where a carbon wishbone or pushrod has snapped for no apparent reason despite all the procedures in place to supposedly prevent a failure. The easiest and safest solution would be to use heavier steel wishbones (and we have had to do that on occasion in the short term whenever a failure could not be understood). The drivers know the score and accept the risks and trust the team (mostly anyway).

I'm sure it's the same in pro DH mtb racing. Plus pros are not going to run their carbon bars for 5 years without inspection. I don't know, but wouldn't be surprised if the top DH teams replace their carbon bars after every race and if not I'm sure they get a very close inspection - even possibly a proof test if they are very professional.

Well obviously you are, as you've said you'd 'consider' using a DH rated bar for XC riding!

Why not? They only weigh a few grams more, I'm not racing and I haven't had a single one fail in 20 years of riding. Is that not common sense?

Well, taking it literally, that's debatable. If it was "common" sense, ie most people did the same then surely there would be a proliferation of DH bars on XC bikes. There isn't, most people are happy using bars for their intended purpose. Indeed I'm happy with my 117g carbon bars on my XC race bike, but I wouldn't fit them to a DH bike myself. Indeed, if everyone did do as you said then wouldn't bars become increasingly well built? If no one used lightweight bars because they all broke? We've seen a lot of components get heavier over the years, bars are not among them.

I've just changed the (branded) carbon bars on my road bike because they're a few years old, have had a few knocks, and I was losing a bit of faith in them, I don't really want that doubt creeping in.

You're putting all your faith in the manufacturer. You deem a bar adequate if Easton tell you that it's rated for riding more extreme than you will ever do. You're not employing any common sense whatsoever. Common sense says that they sell tends of thousands of units, with minute failure rates, therefore the risk of failure if you comply with their defined envelope of us is extremely low.

You've then got these labels, which you put all your faith in. If Easton suddenly added a "DH" moniker to their EC90 bars would you then deem them adequate for your riding?

It's ironic you're questioning my common sense, when you appear to be putting blind faith in marketing!

To use your own logic the only bars I've had fail (and that's an extreme way of putting it) were a pretty heavy pair of Maxm carbon bars, so lighter are safer in my experience of 20 or so pairs of handlebars.

I've got some lightweight carbon road bars on my Madone, which are now 10 years old, just ordered some replacements as they've been bothering me for about 2 years and I've just not got around to it!

From the other thread, I see you mind taking a few risks but why let it bother you for 2 years? But you just keep applying your common sense and hopefully you won't have to contribute to the next failed bars thread from personal experience.

because they're a few years old,

10 you said. Maybe you don't ride it much, maybe you weigh 50 kg?

Maybe you don't ride it much, maybe you weigh 50 kg?

It's/they've done about 40,000 miles at a guess. I weigh 67kg.

You're putting all your faith in the manufacturer. You deem a bar adequate if Easton tell you that it's rated for riding more extreme than you will ever do. You're not employing any common sense whatsoever. Common sense says that they sell tends of thousands of units, with minute failure rates, therefore the risk of failure if you comply with their defined envelope of us is extremely low.

You've then got these labels, which you put all your faith in. If Easton suddenly added a "DH" moniker to their EC90 bars would you then deem them adequate for your riding?

It's ironic you're questioning my common sense, when you appear to be putting blind faith in marketing!

You're making some massive presumptions about me up there. I'm not doing any of those things.

It's/they've done about 40,000 miles at a guess. I weigh 67kg.

tick tock tick tock tick tock bang! Common sense my arse.

and I was losing a bit of faith in them, I don't really want that doubt creeping in.

But you let the doubt creep in for 2 years, knowing that you had a few knocks. You clearly don't know what you are doing and just relying on pot luck. It might run out one day for you and you're just stacking up the odds out of ignorance. And yet you have the cheek to question my own common sense.

I don't think you understand racing then.

I undertand all about the risks and incrimental gains, but in DH and XC racing there are still some areas where reliability is key, and carrying a little extra weight is the compromise, my point is that if carbon was inherently unsafe, and prone enough to failure then we wouldn't use it, at least not as widespread as we do.

because it's designed on the ragged edge with minimal safety margin

perhaps that's the difference, you're speaking form experience of stuff like that, which really isn't the case in mass produced handlebars, they have a fairly substantial safety margin built in by default.

In DH more than anything it is down to a single run, a component failure means instant loss of placing. we go to great lengths not just to save weight but also for reliability, look at tyre systems for proof of that. the ~100g penalty on a Alu bar vs Carbon would be one worth taking *if* crabon bars were that unsafe and unreliable.

You obviously are more risk averse, especially with bars, but my point is that perhaps that risk assessment is based bad assumptions.

For a long while I was risk averse on bottom brackets after snapping a spindle and getting a nasty cut up the inside of my calf from the jaggedy spindle remnants, but most people thought I was being un-necessarily cautious as they'd never broken a BB, in hindsight it was a freak occurrence and I'm over it.

Well obviously you are, as you've said you'd 'consider' using a DH rated bar for XC riding!
Why not? They only weigh a few grams more, I'm not racing and I haven't had a single one fail in 20 years of riding. Is that not common sense?

You seem to be equating your choice of DH bars as the reason for your lack of failures. Correlation does not imply causation. Your lack of failures could be because you're lucky, it could also be that you've never generated the right/wrong load to cause a failure. And without knowledge of that you can't attribute it to your bar choice.

I bet I can find a dozen examples of people using the same pair of 10-20 year old XC bars who have never had a failure, but it would be just as anecdotal and co-incindetal.

if you'd said that you used to use XC bars but kept getting failures until you swapped to DH bars, then that would at least have more relevance.