Burf's Rat Bike Project: affordable UK made frames for making chores fun

Oooo I bet Tom Howard won't be happy that you've spilled the beans on what his new bike is.

Nah, I’m good, told loads of folk at the show 😉

Does the bike industry conspire together to create a new definition of affordable?

In mean, i quite like it, i certainly don't disapprove, i appreciate and am actually quite impressed it costs that little for a uk handbuilt frame. 

But 650quid for frame only... That is not an affordable bike. I am lucky enough to know i could just go out and buy it without a second thought.

I just think its a weird description.

£650 a frame is comparable to far east welded frames, churned out in the hundreds/thousands. I’m struggling to think of UK made frame that’s less than a grand? £650 is a bargain.

But people who want an 'affordable' frame don't GAS where its made. It's a bargain for a UK made frame but it's not a bargain.

Sonders new falco frame is £399

Or on one scandal is £199 and you can get a rock shox fork for another £99 to go with it.

The bike industries use of the word affordable is as out of touch as most politicians!

Like the bike, love the thinking and how it's been rethought to make UK production an option. 

But the headline is doing it a disservice.  

It's a lower cost UK handmade frame for bikepacking, touring and traditional riding.  If you look at it like that it looks like good value and a great product.  The kind of thing I'd like when hurtling down stuff starts to lose its appeal.  

It is not what I would consider a rat bike.  That's the kind of battered old Muddy Fox hybrid and Dawes Galaxy that my kids ride to school.  £650 should get you three of those!  

"Affordable" I could forgive on the basis of the price of UK manufactured alternatives. 

Posted by: Tom Howard

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comparable to far east welded frames, churned out in the hundreds/thousands.

'Churned out' to the same level of quality as these, using exactly the same level of welding skill that went into these. The cost differential is because of higher labour costs in the UK, not higher quality.

If you want one if these because it's made in the UK and are happy to pay more for it because of that then fair enough, but don't kid yourself that what your buying is better than a mass-produced one.

£650 a frame is comparable to far east welded frames, churned out in the hundreds/thousands. I’m struggling to think of UK made frame that’s less than a grand? £650 is a bargain

I said all that. I just think describing it as an affordable frame is weird.

Its a cheap BTR. But its an expensive frame for how its intended to be used. 

Which is all fine. I quite like it other than boring colour. 

Posted by: Josh

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I just think describing it as an affordable frame is weird

Again, my 11-year-old Taiwan-made steel frame was £499, which wasn't a massive outlier then unless you were comparing with Inbreds.

It's good that someone is doing this, and it does look like a lot of thought has gone into how to minimise labour (which as he said is the expensive part) to make it as cheap as possible.

Something that always struck me about how BTR did things was that they appear to be totally no-compromise about all their frame construction details (have a look at how they deal with chainring clearance on the chainstay!) with apparently no thought for the resulting labour time. And that makes it very very hard to earn a living building frames because they either cost a fortune or you earn way below minimum wage - and in the case of their current models I’d say they are v expensive (but probably still great value across their lifespan if you buy the right frame for you) and Burf is still struggling to earn a fair wage.

I hope these new frames are successful and they can take these learnings to a wider range of frames that keep the BTR geometry and travel ethos but pay better and cost less.

Yeah, I'm of a similar opinion, it's not an "affordable" frame, but it is a "cost optimized" British built frame. 

I just don't know if the pitch is right. Middle-class Fat Dads (ahem) will drop £650 on that and before you blink the built cost £2k+ and be the sort of "Rat bike" that can't be left unattended while you're in the pub or perusing Lidl's wares... 

I dunno. Some people will be able to build it up from the parts bin and the black on black colour scheme from an obscure brand makes it relatively stealthy. But as you say, it’ll be easy enough to end up north of £2k.

Affordable might mean something different once China invades Taiwan.

Headline got me excited

But 650quid for frame only.

I'll stick to commuting on my Carrera then.

I dunno. Some people will be able to build it up from the parts bin and the black on black colour scheme from an obscure brand makes it relatively stealthy. But as you say, it’ll be easy enough to end up north of £2k.

I have a sort of similar parts bin rigid 29er, but that uses an old Commencal Frame that was £50 off eBay, similar cost for the forks. All in I doubt the whole thing cost me more than about £400 to lash together, The Geometry isn't going to be as up to the minute, but it doesn't need to be, Serves as a "Dad bike" and "light trail trundler" 

That's more like my idea of a "Rat bike" TBH and I think a lot of other people have a similar interpretation.

What Burf has built there is a "Nice HT frame" (IMO), I appreciate the 'model T' approach, thinking about optimized tooling and jigging in the design to hit manufacturing costs and minimising labour requirements, but a UK made frame thats £600+ to the punter is still a 'good' bike and most people mulling that sort of spend on a bare frame aren't going to be putting cheap kit on it.

Affordable might mean something different once China invades Taiwan.

To be clear I think there is an appetite for a frame like this, I think Burf should lean hard on the "UK made" of it and his experience/involvement with bikes generally over the last Decade or so. The apparent flexibility of the design, I can see it serving duty as a utility bike, or a bike packing setup, or a general trail HT. Lot's of people want a bike like that and will pay the premium for a "Made in the UK" Sticker... 

Posted by: cookeaa

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What Burf has built there is a "Nice HT frame" (IMO), I appreciate the 'model T' approach, thinking about optimized tooling and jigging in the design to hit manufacturing costs and minimising labour requirements, but a UK made frame thats £600+ to the punter is still a 'good' bike and most people mulling that sort of spend on a bare frame aren't going to be putting cheap kit on it.

Aye, fair comment. I think though that a lot of what he's doing seems quite 'scalable' and presumably if he wanted to do it, the cost could come down as volumes go up. The use of stamped/folded dropouts etc. is clever, as is the use of guides for cutting.

"Made in the UK" probably will attract a subset of people.

Like the idea, especially if they do some slightly more hardcore versions like a LT hardtail. That said, the details like the dropouts etc look crap IMHO (I appreciate why they're done like that) so would I rather pay for a handbuilt UK made frame with some finishing done to keep costs as low as possible or pay the same amount for a far more finished product from the Far East?

I like it. Reminds me of the Surly 1x1, a bike with similar utility. The price seems fair in comparison. Like the 1x1, this is the sort of bike you buy and never sell, or if you do you regret it.

I also like the fork. It reminds me of the old Humber forks from way back. They gave a nicer ride on rough roads than the standard style forks, and I presume this may do the same.

Shame it's not singlespeedable. 🙂