[Closed] BTR Pinner or Cotic Rocket?

The Pinner is crazy expensive, unproven and not doing too well on kickstarter

But, it may be available in the near future... 😆

looks like cy may be bringing a 29er rocket out 'soon' as they're running them in the enduro's

On the plus side they are very good customers services and regularly do demo's so try one out

The dmr bolt is also steel and British and full suspension but bb pivot so less popular

Swarf curve ftw!

Having just ridden the Cotic Rocket, I would say it's well sorted, available soonish and fun.

They are really nice chaps too who I would be happy to support.

Considering the made-in-britain aspect, I also think it's good value.

If it had been 27.5, I would have probably placed my order already. Not that I actually want 27.5, I'm just a little worried that bits might be hard to find in a couple of years. I'm already seeing new rims being launched in 275/29 only.
I'm going to ride a couple more 29ers to see if that's a direction I'd like to go in. I'm in no rush.
I intend to keep my next bike 5 years or more.

I had a bounce around on a Rocket last weekend. It was too small for me, but I'm definitely wanting a demo when something appropriate is available. The suspension felt very taut, I think I'll either love it or hate it.

The looks of the Pinner aren't for me, and I'm wary of Kickstarter bikes as there's no demo.

tang - Member

Swarf curve ftw!

Considering the made-in-britain aspect I also think it's good value

Wow , this is a USP? 2.5k for a frame puts you in Santa Cruz carbon territory

I love the swarf, are they actually available or still prototypes at the moment?

catschroedinger - Member
Wow , this is a USP? 2.5k for a frame puts you in Santa Cruz carbon territory

Eh - it's half that price for the Rocket!

The guy at Swarf mentioned 2500 quid a frame at the LBS ,

The BTR kickstarter mentions 2500 quid a frame

Honestly I thought the Rocket was closer to 1800 quid not 1350 which makes it the bargain (if you can call it that) of the bunch

2500 is a heck of a lot for a frame when you can get a Canyon or YT full bike for similar

catschroedinger - Member
Honestly I thought the Rocket was closer to 1800 quid not 1350 which makes it the bargain (if you can call it that) of the bunch

Transition/Banshee/Cove/

Just google shopping and those frames all seem to be 1600-1800 rrp quid, I'm amazed people pay that for an aluminium Taiwan frame when you can buy an entire Taiwan Giant for similar

Was the BTR designed in the 1990s!?

The dmr bolt is also steel and British and full suspension but bb pivot so less popular

And also surprisingly good actually, deserves more credit than it gets I think, are they actually built in the UK though?

The Pinner is crazy expensive, unproven and not doing too well on kickstarter

It's only been going a couple of days on Kickstarter, and the KS is to get funding to build a batch, and to get some key parts machined in batch to keep the cost down, they'll still build anything you want on a one-off basis.

Expensive yes, but then so is the Swarf, and any custom geometry, handbuilt frame is going to be, the Rocket isn't cheap, and is more mass produced without the option of custom tweaks so it's a bit like comparing Apples and Oranges there.

Member
Swarf curve ftw!

They also look great - I'd love a ride on one. Shame they're down south.

Ditto, really like the Swarf and have been following closely, really really want to have a go on one too to see what it actually rides like.

The Swarf and BTR have both had a number of protoypes built and ridden, in some cases by customers, not just the builders, and to be fair, all new frames are 'unproven' in that respect until out with the public in significant numbers.

Depends what you're after I guess, but if you're looking for a bespoke frame from a UK builder who you can actually go and talk to, discuss options, make your own tweaks and end up with a totally bespoke bike then that's a little different* from buying and off the peg frame, in any material!

One of the nice things about all these options so far is that they've all got their own character and reflect the builder/designer, whether or not any of them are your cup of tea is another matter but they are all quite unique in look and feel even if the end goals are similar.

*different, not better, not worse, just different.

They all go through various middle men and have import duty etc added. Less people taking their cut the better it is for cotic

Edit. They as in big us brands

I don't think you can tweak anything on a rocket can you?

The dmr isn't UK built as far as I know

Just join the queue and order a Rocket. Have been loving mine for the last 18 months 🙂

I don't think you can tweak anything on a rocket can you?

dont think theres a single part of the thing that hasn't been tweaked

[i]2500 is a heck of a lot for a frame when you can get a Canyon or YT full bike for similar [/i]

while clearly, obviously you can...You can't 😆

They're not the same market are they, the likes of YT are such good value, but the BTR you'll know the bloke that made the frame, and for a lot of folk that does count for something.

The dmr isn't UK built as far as I know

No, but it's a hell of a bike - and only £899 for the frame and shock (actually £719 currently on a certain bike website).

Just join the queue and order a Rocket. Have been loving mine for the last 18 months

I think a few people on here have been waiting 18 months for theirs :S

can someone explain to me why steel is a good material for a full sus frame?
Ok steels real for that nice 853 hard tail but why use such weighty material when ally is so much lighter and will be just as stiff if well designed.
To charge / pay 2.5k for a steel frame seems daft, even if you did have a chat with the nice chap that welded it up!
What do they weigh??

[url= http://www.cotic.co.uk/geek/steel-full-suspension ]http://www.cotic.co.uk/geek/steel-full-suspension[/url]

The answer to'why steel?' is in here somewhere IIRC.

Or in this series of lecture videos.

Im thinking if it was worth doing Brant would have knocked them out in container loads by now........... 😀

+ the rest of the MTB industry.

My UK built full sus frame was a fraction of the price of that BTR thing. It is made from recycled filing cabinets though.

I must admit I've always had rather the opposite view and can't really understand why aluminium is such a popular material for a mountain bike. Any bike that gets regularly chucked down mountains is going to flex and since aluminium doesn't have a fatigue limit, that means that sooner or later it will crack.

Mike, I meant that customers cannot tweak the frame at ordering as someone had suggested above

Sunn had steel dh frames and won everything for years.

Just get a rocket. One of the funnest things I've ridden.

I must admit I've always had rather the opposite view and can't really understand why aluminium is such a popular material for a mountain bike. Any bike that gets regularly chucked down mountains is going to flex and since aluminium doesn't have a fatigue limit, that means that sooner or later it will crack.

This fatigue limit thing is often mentioned. I discussed it with Keith Bontrager many many years ago. Steel, if stressed only lightly, indeed can have no fatigue limit, but to make a bicycle see stresses that low you would have to use incredibly thick tubes, and even then, welds, or rather, the heat affected zone near the welds, would still be a weak point.

Steel bicycle frames, of the sort we are discussing, don't have a fatigue limit.

I'm confused Brant - was one of those 'steels' in your post meant to be 'aluminium'?

I thought the fatigue limit for steel was quite high and I'm surprised that even a light steel bicycle tube experiences enough deflection to exceed that limit. But I could be wrong and anyway it is rather academic because, as you say, we're really talking about frames rather than tubes and they tend to crack at the joints. It makes me wonder why we don't see lugged frames any more.

"can someone explain to me why steel is a good material for a full sus frame?
Ok steels real for that nice 853 hard tail but why use such weighty material when ally is so much lighter and will be just as stiff if well designed."

With so many factors to consider,more than just the density of steel v's aluminium, the simple answer is [b]no[/b].
It is far from easy to explain why steel frames can be lighter than some equivalent aluminium frame designs.

http://www.ktm.com/za/enduro/125-exc/highlights.html#.U6Al5dpOW1s
[i]"Contrary to the trend for aluminium frames from other manufacturers, we supply the KTM 125 EXC 2015 with a high-tech steel frame. Not only is it more stable, but also at least 0.5 kg lighter than the competition's frames. In MY 2015 the frame colour shines in the same orange as the KTM factory team, making the styling even more attractive. Thanks to the frame design and in conjunction with the rear PDS damping system, shocks at the rear wheel are absorbed and dissipated optimally."[/i]

http://blog.ktm.com/klaus-hirsekorn-alex-baumgaertel-kalex-engineering/
What are the differences between the Kalex aluminium frame and the KTM steel tube frame?
[i]“It´s a different philosophy, but both methods could lead to success as KTM has proven in Moto3 and Kalex in Moto2. So everybody acquires knowledge in one´s field of activity. Aluminium allows more design flexibility while milling. You can vary in wall thickness and processes. It is relatively easy to specifically remove or add material according to the requirements. Finally the overall weight is the same. At the same strength aluminium needs to be scaled stronger than steel. Therefore with steel you can save space, but aluminium offers greater freedom in design, therefore I prefer aluminium.”[/i]

http://reynoldstechnology.biz/assets/pdf/rtl_2010_moto_tech.pdf

Im starting to think a cotic rocket is a myth. We've been waiting sooooooo long!

I've seen one in the wild they do exist! they're just not breeding very successfully at the moment

If I was buying new it'd need a demo first full stop.

The only exception is something like YT Capra where you kinda have a good gut-feel that its going to be at least.. rideable maybe even fantastic.

[quote=hora ]If I was buying new it'd need a demo first full stop.
The only exception is something like YT Capra where you kinda have a good gut-feel that its going to be at least.. rideable maybe even fantastic.

do you ever read what you write?

Do you understand the concept of the line 'the only exception'? Back to your bridge.

If I was buying new it'd need a demo first full stop.

which utterly contradicts this statement, made one line before.

The only exception is something like

'only' implies singular
'something like' implies there are many equivalent options

So it not only contradicts the statement made one line before it, it also contradicts itself in the same sentence.

So better written as:

If I was buying new it'd need a demo first.

Except if I really like the look of it and have a funny feeling in my tummy

Jesus wept.

It's before 10am on hump day, we're allowed to be pedantic 😀

Right, I'm going to have my second coffee.

I've seen one in the wild

ill bet you havent

I'm all for all these companies making stuff here in blighty Adrian and Burf and Tam theyr'e a great bunch and all trying to make good stuff

I've just googled the BTR Pinner. Hmmmm it reminds me of Canfield etc etc of mid-00's. Personally I'd go the Cotic route.

ill bet you havent

A real Man-Bet or Internet-Bet?

I'm all for all these companies making stuff here in blighty Adrian and Burf and Tam theyr'e a great bunch and all trying to make good stuff

Amen to that.

Any kind of bet you like

what are we betting again, that I haven't seen a Cotic Rocket in the wild?

Amen to that.

Definitely +a million

We need more people willing to give this kind of stuff a go and build decent stuff locally and willing to try and build some new and interesting things 🙂

what are we betting again, that I haven't seen a Cotic Rocket in the wild?

not a UK produced one before you go off on ah well "I never said that did I"

haha, well I didn't say that did I? 😉

And no I haven't seen a UK produced one in the wild yet

They'll be worth the wait though I'm sure

The lesser spotted Cotic Rocket in the wild although it's not the elusive UK origin species

[img] [/img]

the not that elusive really UK version

https://flic.kr/p/o1F4UF

Oooh! Is that one mine?

How are you liking the Slants on it brunse11?
Do they match the poppyness of the rear?

Ah no, [i]that one[/i] isn't mine, I was referring to Mike's pic!

How do you know that one's yours?
Nice to see it being built, I bet!

I don't... but it might be. I'm just sitting in a bubble of excitement.

How are you liking the Slants on it brunse11?
Do they match the poppyness of the rear?

The Slants suit the frame very well. They sit high in their travel and have a nice progressive feel. I'm yet to find a situation they don't really like. Great forks for the money. Might try them at 150mm some time, currently set at stock 160mm travel.

a bubble of excitement

That's a great way to describe the Cotic. Engaging, fun and exciting to ride.

That sounds good. Currently on a BFe (thanks Cy) which is wearing all the parts destined for the rocket. BFe is a right bloody laugh I'll tell you.

How is the UK mfg going? Wasn't there a splitting of the ways?

hmm, BTR offering the Pinner as 650b OR 26er now...

[url= https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/btrfabrications/btr-pinner-the-full-suspension-mountainbike-for-ev/posts ]Kickstarter update[/url]

This Kickstarter thing? Does it mean they wont be making anything if they don't get backers, seems not a lot of people are prepared to put their money where their mouth is Pinkbike generated 170 odd comments but no one bought one?

So, which semi-fictional British mountain bike is best?

Is it the YT Capra?

http://www.btr-fabrications.com/support-and-faq/pinner-faq/

This Kickstarter thing? Does it mean they wont be making anything if they don't get backers

They would still be able to do custom one-offs, but it means without the Kickstarter funding they don't have the up front money to get a batch of the linkages machined or order a batch of CCDBA shocks so would more expensive. (probably too expensive for some)

The KS thing is to try and raise some money up front to get a batch going, they've already built a couple for customers already.

[url= http://www.btr-fabrications.com/support-and-faq/pinner-faq/ ]http://www.btr-fabrications.com/support-and-faq/pinner-faq/[/url]

They would still be able to do custom one-offs, but it means without the Kickstarter funding they don't have the up front money to get a batch of the linkages machined or order a batch of CCDBA shocks so would more expensive. (probably too expensive for some)

The KS thing is to try and raise some money up front to get a batch going, they've already built a couple for customers already.

http://www.btr-fabrications.com/support-and-faq/pinner-faq/

Would it not be wise to just stick to doing one offs at that price, considering the news its now available on the 650b bandwagon ,actually going back to my previous comment/Q regards money and mouth ,I can see why, I thought there were loads of them already out there in 26" the PR says there's actually only 1 in existence and that is a 26" inch bike,

Thats the thing though isn't it, they've been building hardtails for a few years, and have done a few one-off full suss frames for people including the proto for the Pinner, and feedback from everyone has been good. they're now at the stage where they'd like to produce more but need cash up front, so have decided to try KS to raise the money, otherwise it will be carry on with custom stuff or find an alternative source of income.

You can't really knock them for trying to get a small batch run off the ground this way.

It'll be interesting to see how the Swarf frame goes into production too, as I guess there may be similar financial issues to work around there too unless he has funding in place or plans on staying on a one-off custom basis too.

How is the UK mfg going? Wasn't there a splitting of the ways?

Ayup Gary aye hindsightrs a wonderful thing i should have binned the project back then its amazing what you find out through a 3rd party though,

That BTR Pinner I mean seriously a frame for £2500 made of cheapo steel, gotta be mad to buy that.

So are these Cotic Rockets still been made in the UK by bike manufacturing?

Bicycle manufacturing does not seem to be flavour of the month anymore, whilst its not officially gone pop yet its legs are wobbling

However I'm sure the pat on the back for having a go will fall on cy turners shoulders and the blame failure on mine and the saviour of it on another builders shoulders who he would pay for actually doing work

uh-oh

oooooh dear, this doesn't sound good at all.

Can I say with confidence that I made the right decision to stop waiting for the Rocket back in November...?

I'm gonna give my Spitfire an extra hug this evening when I put it to bed.

Mmel + 1.

That BTR Pinner I mean seriously a frame for £2500 made of cheapo steel, gotta be mad to buy that.

Oh no! What's gone wrong???

Sounds like Cy Turner has gone elsewhere and he won't pay Mike?

I thought it was a joint venture?