[Closed] british xc

problem is that running a technical section is often the fastest option up a hill and sometimes down, and I dont want that to happen so need to sort a way of stopping this.

looks like a [url= http://fnssmtb.wordpress.com/ ]muddy field[/url] to me

Going a bit OT:
I think the future of "XC" may be in long weekend/stage races: XC, XC time-trial, enduro, light DH kind of thing- all on one bike.

It would require the pro organisers to do it.

The problem [b]I[/b] have with XC is a lack of commitment on the day: I have had an XC race 10 miles up the road and not gone 'cos it's raining/boring course/not feeling fit.

Look at the turnout that enduro-marathons can get with the right promotion.

Wants to be something that people would put in their diary, pre-enter for and need some form of training commitment.
Interesting riding, a challenge, competitive, social and would suit the 5" masses!

(Nice one Brownbacks- too far away for me though)

Go for it sancho.

What's technical is hard to establish. I consider myself technically inept, but that's my age - no BMX or mountainbike whilst growing up.
That said I've been out with folk who have reluctantly ridden on my patch because it's a bit lame only to find them walking behind me. So we might be under estimating XC riders a bit. I'll tend to do things in races that I'd never do in real life?
Which begs the question, if courses were to be even more technical who would 'win' in the long run? I ask because it seems folk want technical stuff to slow down the whippets. There's almost an admission that technical riders might not be as fit and fast as the common perception of the XC racer is. So...would the technical riders work on fitness and would the classic racer become more skilled.
I'll stick my neck out, I think the fitter rider would find it easier to learn skills, or could find them quicker than his counterpart could match his fitness.

Cuppa anyone 😀

I didn't say anything about what I like or don't, not really sure why you're getting so aggressive about it? Personally I derive a lot of pleasure from a technical course, or a particular section. If I can't do it/am losing time, it's an area for improvement, which is good to identify.

I wasn't being aggressive at all.

I notice there is a gap jump in the olympics course - with a longer chicken run, seems perfectly sensible to me. If people were to get off their bike and run across the gap (not sure if this would save time anyway), to me that would seem lame and a little bit like cheating.

Lets rein this back in a bit. Comments from folk who don't want to race and see it as an objectionable side of the sport don't really help.

Not sure if you're referring to me - I am interested in racing and have taken part in the gravity enduro events before (so not 'proper' racing). I'm never likely to be fit enough to compete in an XC race, but probably would do if I thought it would be fun. The attitude of some posters in here makes me think that it probably wouldn't be much fun.

problem is that running a technical section is often the fastest option up a hill and sometimes down, and I dont want that to happen so need to sort a way of stopping this.

I can see why you'd want to, but the problem is people trying and failing, and whether you penalise them, which will cause more problems than just having a chicken run that allows people to take a few seconds penalty in exchange for the easier line.

At the Dalby WC some of the top women didn't do Worry Gill (including the winner IIRC) - just decided the 3 second penalty was better than the potential of mashing your face up.

In the Elite mens NPS race a very well known enduro rider of these parts didn't ride it either on at least one lap. Not a case of can't, he's a far better rider than me, and I did it, it's a very difficult balance to strike. Be interested to see how a penalty system worked.

Rock sections that are technically challenging to ride up and very steep with drops on the way down, rooty wood sections on steep descents that are difficult to ride with drops and gap jumps.
But always with an easy option.
Ive been riding a lot of motorbike enduros and the line options are an excellent way of gaining an advantage for the skilled rider and Id like to replicate that.
Sorry didnt give a full description on the last post.

I notice there is a gap jump in the olympics course - with a longer chicken run, seems perfectly sensible to me. If people were to get off their bike and run across the gap (not sure if this would save time anyway), to me that would seem lame and a little bit like cheating.

Agreed, and that's the advantage of a well designed course I guess. Other bits I can think of with a chicken lines from courses this year do work in the same vain:

- Worry Gill and Medusa's Drop at Dalby both have chicken lines which are far easier and cost 5 or so seconds (assuming a clear run at the 'a line')
- The 2 bombholes at Wasing both slow you significantly, and set you up on the wrong line at the bottom

There is a chicken line on one of the drops at Pippingford that doesn't really work IMO, 2 drops separated by a bank one climbs at a slight angle and it is (in the wet at least) very difficult to clean, whilst the chicken run isn't really shorter. So you may as well take the chicken run, and be guaranteed a clean run, rather than try the drop, maybe succeed and gain nothing, or get it wrong and lose time.

Like I say, it's a balance, the chicken run needs to be faster than walking the main section, but slower than a good run at the main section.

I might be grum, I've not looked back. TBH a traditional XC is fun, unless it's just me. What gets people hooked is getting drawn into the out and out racing regardless of fitness.
Tearing off the blocks alongside 100 other guys all racing for that ever narrowing line seems to bring something out of you that you can never find on any other day riding.
This is why I'm cautious about over technical courses. To me a race is focusing on getting past the bloke in front. So I want the course to be 'tricky' but not so that it requires more commitment than chasing the rider ahead.
If you are one of the folks who want to change the face of XC racing without ever trying it then yes it was at you.

and as far as Ive ever seen, the XC whippets are usually the most skilled riders too. I remember doing gisburn on the 575 with Scott Thwaites he did two laps to my one on his Carbon Lapierre hardtail and rinsed me on the descents too.

£10 a race cheap enough?

Spot on. Move the whole thing considerably further south and I'm in 🙂

As far as the comments from folk who don't want to race goes: The reason I said I don't particularly want to race is because apart from MM this year, which I trained bloody hard for, just to be able to ride it, i've never raced an mtb in my life.I'm 51 years old and not about to start now. I'm fit, not very fast on a bike, but getting much faster all the time. I've had mountain bikes since 1987 and until last year maybe ridden averagely once a month in any anger. I have ridden two or theree times a week for almost a year now and intend to ciontinue in that vein until I simply can't. The group I ride with often are aged from 22 to 40 without me and have an average age of 28.
Some of these guys would make good committed competetive riders, but see nothing to attract them to XC. I would also gladly give time to marshall or help out even if not racing.It's all mountain biking to me.
So. If xc wants a place in British MTB then either it bimbles on as it is or it gains riders, supporters, sponsors, organisers. Otherwise it will spiral inwards and downwards.
Please, take well intentioned, constructive criticism and observation on the chin.
I'm not bashing XC and haven't really seen anyone else on here doing that either.

I'm off for a wee.

Completely agree with Oldgit here - accessible grass roots racing is missing from much of the UK.

I can do a CX race or a TT without having to travel more than a few miles or pay more than a tenner, yet I'd have to spend half the day driving from Bristol to Surrey to do an XC race. In parts of the country where local races are put on, they seem to be well supported - Beastway etc.

Technical courses would be nice from an image point of view, but they aren't that important in an event where 90% of the field are going to be too knackered to see straight by the end of the first lap. When I finish a local CX race, my first thought isn't "wow, that course was easy".

If you want to put on a local XC race then in reality it's no harder than organising an event in any other disciplines. But it just doesn't enter most people's heads to do something because we are continually told that "XC racing is dead". When I started MTBing I didn't really care, now having experienced and enjoyed a bit of racing in other disciplines I'm starting to think we're missing a trick.

That for a fiver

we looked at time penalties but essentially they are impossible to enforce well, put to much on the marshal (who might be a friend of a racer) good course design is the answer

hoopdriver, we have regulars who live >100 miles away

I ask because it seems folk want technical stuff to slow down the whippets.

a bit of racing across a field from our series
http://www.youtube.com/user/BrownbacksRacing#p/u/30/qPLrdCAgCRc

and to show we are family friendly "c'mon Dad!"
http://www.youtube.com/user/BrownbacksRacing#p/u/21/m4tbFIlKlk4

in our experience the "whippets" are more than competant downhill/ on the technical bits. Just design a good course, see what happens and then adjust for the next one. Don't pigeonhole people people by their bikes or clothes.

If you want to put on a local XC race then in reality it's no harder than organising an event in any other disciplines.

having done it, yes it is, getting people to come forward to help is hard, the ones that do often don't race themselves and are some of life's stars, road, TT, CX use the club structure to get assistance to well established events which often take place over a shorter length of time

When I started MTBing I didn't really care, now having experienced and enjoyed a bit of racing in other disciplines I'm starting to think we're missing a trick

Some of these guys would make good committed competetive riders, but see nothing to attract them to XC

Are they not attracted by riding new places, without having to think, knowing that you've got a couple of hours of great riding, not worrying about walkers/stiles/gates etc (by and large!). That's a big part of riding for me - riding in places I otherwise wouldn't, with likeminded others.

and if it's so easy, do it yourself rather than bemoaning the lack of races, [b]who do you think is going to do it if you don't?[/b]

Brownbacks, that wasn't another "someone else should do it" comment. Having sounded a few people out about running a few local races in Bristol it sounds like there is heaps of enthusiasm from local clubs, potential sponsors, local BC rep et el. It hasn't quite come together yet (mainly because the local MTB trails have spent quite a lot of the summer closed while they receive a full facelift) but I'm sure it will soon.

You may have a point about road clubs having more of a racing culture, but I don't think that's insurmountable.

just had a thought
If you cant ride a technical section then youre sent back to either try again or do the chicken run.

Its a bit like in motorbike enduros where riders cant get up a muddy hill, its brilliant for the crowds as riders keep battling up the hill.

I just think it might work out as a bit of a fun spot for spectators but a key point in a race where skill can save a few seconds in a lap and thus prove the difference between a fit rider and a skilled fit rider.

It'd be worth a try, but my analogy of the first rider cocking it up and thus causing problems for all the following riders still stands. And if they come off halfway down are they going to have to walk back up the singletrack?

Not trying to put you off, just think it would be near impossible to implement!

yeah, Im just mulling ideas over at the moment, maybe save the retry rule for the uphill sections.

If after all someone crashes going down then first aid might be a higher priority

It sounds to me as if you are thinking of increasingly complicated ways of penalising a mythical group of fit but incompetent riders.

If you look at the front of an NPS you'll see that they can all ride anyway.

Yeah it's in the middle, around me, where it goes terribly wrong 🙂

no its not penalising, its line choices to gain an advantage.
its pretty common in lots of other events.

the skill factor comes in to it over and above simply fitness.

OK, another bonkers idea:

How about a lap consisting of a singletrack climb into a multi-line decent. Grid the start on combined weight of bike and rider (heaviest first) which then goes straight into a bottleneck.

Call it "Revenge of the Bifters"

Hoopdriver, I dont understand why you are being a cock about this.

Im simply looking at ideas to make a simple XC race a bit more interesting and to make skill a factor in the race rather than simply fitness.

But skill [i]is[/i] a factor, and I guess that's the issue. Admittedly less so than DH, but isn't that one of the differences? Fitness is more important, but skill less so.

That's not to say that skill isn't required, nor that races aren't sometimes decided on skill.

I'd be interested to see how any system worked out, and would wish you well in trying it, but I think it would introduce a significant degree of unfairness.

Sorry, wasn't meant as a pop.

Was almost serious. The problem I found when I was I was unfit was that I would be ratcheted down the order by people climbing fast and then getting stuck behind them on the downs.

At Gisburn last year I made the decision while recceing the course to walk the tricky (in my mind) steppy section about 1/2 way round lap. I had ridden it but reasoned doing 10-12 laps or so I would more than likely crash once at least, which may have been the end of my race. I reckon it cost me at least 10 secs a lap, but over the 12 hours I could live with that. I did of course ensure I kept out of the way of better riders (some of whom I passed again on the next climb).

Oldgit. I think your comment about age ie no bmx as a nipper, is a good one and explains why some of the jumpy type riding just don't come naturally to me.

Im not sure on what you mean by unfair.
the idea being that if you cant ride a section then you go back and take an alternative slower route or try again.

Having done some xc racing the complaints ive come across are that riders run sections rather than ride them, simply because its quicker, but if you were penalised for running then the whole idea is that a more skilled rider gains advantage. thus equalizing the skill/fitness a bit.

Im still not sure on how it will work, but any helpful ideas are welcomed.
not the Biftas thing please.

Hoopdriver I know what you mean, and for me.

Id like the downs to be wide enough with line choices that the less fit rider can gain some advantage.

And again trying to equalise the balance between skill and fitness.

I know that the fastest riders will be both fast and skilled, but the best bit about racing is the middle order (where I usually race) where people are racing more closely and any slight advantage gained through skill is rewarded.

I'm not sure alternate lines/stop-go penalties/other weirdness is really necessary. There really aren't many courses out there where a rubbish but strong rider will match an equally strong but non-rubbish one. The more skilled rider will always have an advantage, all else being equal. There are certainly elements of course design that it'd be good to see -- I think that sections that are quicker to run than ride should be left for cyclocross 😉 Descents with plausible overtaking points would also be good.

On the other hand, if people have put the effort in to get fast, it seems only fair to reward that come race day 🙂

I'm new on this forum, but quite interested by this thread.

With regards to the OP and his club, all clubs are made up of volunteers, club coaches will be volunteers. Unfortunately you're unlikely to get a coach out with you if they're not interested in riding XC (whether at a fast pace or easy pace), or they just don't have the time to do more. Perhaps there's no one confident or capable enough to organise a ride. Perhaps you could approach the club about them funding you to become a coach. They may also be worried about the boundaries set out in by their coaching accreditation. I'm close to completing a BC L2 caching qualification - we're not allowed to coach on the road, and we're not allowed to coach in a technical environment.

A club is there for the members, all members are entitled to do what they want. If you want to go out for a hard XC ride (don't call it a club training ride) and invite others along to it. It could be that the club won't support it as there is no demand. It's up to you to help create the demand so that you can get the support of the club committee.

I'm a member of a road club, mainly time trialling, but more and more we have members road racing. Last winter a few of us did our first CX races/season. This year we're hosting a league race. I have intentions to race XC once the CX is over with. Last winter we started up a weekly evening mountain bike ride, stopped over the summer, but it'll start up again soon. There was no club help in starting up the MTB rides or attending the CX races, but once a few of us were doing it the club gave it's full support.

As for money in road racing. I recently finished 3rd in a 4th cat road race. I got an envelope with £20 in it. Not a lot, but I was thrilled with my first ever race winnings 😳 😆

Oldgit - I gather from your posts that you may be local to me as you've keep mentioned Woburn. I'm a member of a local club and would be keen to know your MTB race plans, and could possibly provide some help. Can you message me? (if it's possible - trying to get to grips with this forum).

hammerite there's no email in your profile. As soon as saw the bit about hosting a cx race I wondered.
What club are you in?

The leage doesn't have a venue for round one, and we have been asked to try and sort that. We should know tonight.

WE have a venue at Liscombe Park near Soulbury. It was intended for the cross, but it a bit too rough.

Beds Road?

Yes BRCC.

You have mail Oldgit.

Ah haa
I was going to target some of your riders this year. I was carrying a massive injury last year (that's what happens when you stand under a 600kg pallet) One of your guys got a wheel on me at the end of the VC10 so he is in my sights. That's what it's about though.
Let me know if you need help regards XC racing, I've got a pool of riders in an informal club that are gagging to give it a go.

I've just looked at the results and I think I've pinpointed your name based on the 1 second time gap at that race 🙂 The guy who had you is a pretty good road racer. But it was his first ever CX race and he was riding his Dad's ancient cross bike that hadn't been used for years.

He's invested in some new hardware for the coming season, but still admits to struggling when it comes to handling and technique.

I e-mailed the e-mail address in your profile if that works.

In response to hammerite post re the club, yes i totally understand that these people are volunteers and certain qualifications entitle you to coach one aspect and not another. I did contact as well as the general coaching coordinator the MTB coach. I said in my email to them that I totally understood if they were not able to do so but I got no reply at all. My basic outline for training sessions was to use small loops around the local parks/hills, so no one would get left behind or have to ride slowly. Just a warm up ride to the circuit and then just bomb about the loop and go home. Or maybe find a good hill and do a hill climb session or even find a good downhill and do some timed sessions down there. All I wanted them to do was to come along and give a few pointers e.c.t.

I know I could look at becoming a coach, I do consider it but I not for this club, I found it a little on the unfriendly side, generally, and thats not what I feel makes for a good, encouraging atmosphere.

I think grass route is the way to go for getting people involved and more involved the more likely it is for media (cycling media esp) to take an interest. I think one of the best races I have ridden in is one where you turn up in a car park pay a few pounds and race, everyone starts together and there are a few prices but nothing major, just a good have a go atmosphere.

In terms of courses being not that interesting/technical I can't say that in 20 years I have really ridden that may courses that I thought that was boring, one or two, I like njee20 aren't sold on the MM course but it's all right. The was one course that was almost all single track, it rained and that was boring just because it was impossible to get any speed up.
No one seems to moaning about trail centres but they don't seem to be that technical really. Plus hit things at speed and everything gets harder. I am no way saying that courses shouldn't be technical, I prefer it when they are but but is this really the reason why people don't race?
On the same note people seem pretty happy with their 5 inch bikes at trail centres, so why are they using that as an excuse. Really need to get away from bikes being used as excuses to ride a certain way.

Tell him I'll be out to kick his arse 😀 bloody whipper snapper overtaking an old man with a walking stick.

No one seems to moaning about trail centres but they don't seem to be that technical really. Plus hit things at speed and everything gets harder. I am no way saying that courses shouldn't be technical, I prefer it when they are but but is this really the reason why people don't race?

Agreed, plenty of XC courses on a par with your average trail centre, and generally ridden more 'on the ragged edge' or whatever! IMO that's what a good course should be, one which [i]can[/i] be ridden by most, but gets hard to ride flat out.

Why don’t we introduce a new race format. I suggest similar to an enduro, with timed uphill sections and timed downhill sections.

The system is points based and points are awarded based on the position the riders finish relating to their time on that section.

Each course must have equal uphill and downhill sections (if not certain downhills or uphills may be points loaded to reflect this)

Downhills and to some extent uphills should be suffiently technical/fast/rocky/drops/jumps (hardish) etc but with slower chicken runs.

This should hopefully cater for all types of rider as the points system should level the playing field between xc fitness, technical riding and skills/balls.

The points sytem makes the fastest climber on a climb (making 5 minutes on a climb) equal to the fastest descender on a downhill (making 20 seconds on a downill). So points could be..

Climb 1
1st place =35pts
2nd place= 34pts
And so on

Descent 1
1st place =35pts
2nd place= 34pts
And so on

So best all rounder should win really.