[Closed] british xc

The British XC scene is alive and kicking IMO. Courses are getting shorter to be more spectator friendly and definitely more technical at the National level. The leading guys in Youth/Junior/Expert/Masters/Elite level are both exceptionally fit and extremely talented riders. Probably the biggest issue is the lack of UCI points available in the UK (certainly next year) which reduces the chances of UK riders racing at World Cup level.
One of the other challenges is that the roots of XC racing here are in recreational mountain biking which seems to be speed and fitness adverse and certainly disorganised by nature. By contrast the road scene is race/fitness focussed with cyclo-cross a natural extension to this.
If clubs can be persuaded to start to start to organise mountain bike races in the same way as they do the other cycling disciplines then it would help significantly.

I think the above(ChristoGinger) is a creative idea although going down that route I would go down the Nordic skiing route, where they get points that convert to seconds advantages for the xc race the next day...I believe the sort of idea behind the STW weekender.

BUT, I think as said before, it's not really about coming up with new race formats it's wondering how to attract people to race xc and ultimately, in the future, have some depth of talent that matches the DH boys and girls at a world level. Not sure this is going to be improved with new formats, other than possibly formats that more closely such as what already exists, short track/elimination format and endurance racing.

Not to put down your or anyone else, efforts tho!

MikeWW - Member
The British XC scene is alive and kicking IMO. Courses are getting shorter to be more spectator friendly and definitely more technical at the National level. The leading guys in Youth/Junior/Expert/Masters/Elite level are both exceptionally fit and extremely talented riders. Probably the biggest issue is the lack of UCI points available in the UK (certainly next year) which reduces the chances of UK riders racing at World Cup level.
One of the other challenges is that the roots of XC racing here are in recreational mountain biking which seems to be speed and fitness adverse and certainly disorganised by nature. By contrast the road scene is race/fitness focussed with cyclo-cross a natural extension to this.
If clubs can be persuaded to start to start to organise mountain bike races in the same way as they do the other cycling disciplines then it would help significantly.

POSTED 8 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Agree! mostly!, the riders are talented and don't mean to put them down but in the elite mens for example, they aren't able to give Liam and Oli much competition, who in turn are both a bit off the world cup pace. The UK's depth of real top quality isn't there,(mostly) or at least not yet.

c in c
Just not sure you are in touch with things. UK School Games at the weekend now includes mountain biking. Youths were desperate to get on the teams. More and more club youngsters are interested in mountain bike racing. British Cycling have RSRs set up to further develop mountain bike skills. Do you got to any of the National Series?

Sorry, maybe being stupid but not quite sure what direct connection the above response has to me saying that at elite level we are lacking real depth of talent?
Totally see in the long term the above will help and agreed with you about all but the top elite level racers.
The above sounds great and no I haven't been to a national series race in a long time, they are all rather far from were I live.
I apologise if I am missing something...

I really just don't get this. Why can't people just race XC as it is. How do you develop talent by changing the whole format of an event to the rest of the world.

XC has been going for years, it's pretty pure racing and all the guys and girls work hard at it.
I know you'll all say 'well it's attitudes like yours that stop people entering' If you want to race by your own choice then just turn up and race if you come last come back next week and do better, but don't expect the whole world to change things for you because it's not fair letting fit and fast XC racers have the advantage.
Do we do this in any other sports?

I've never done down hill, I'd love to have a go and I know they'll have to leave the keys under the mat for me to lock up with I'd be so slow, but not for one single minute would I expect anyone to change things so me as an inept downhiller would be on a par with the elite riders.

i was thinking purely points to keep time out of the equation. I was hoping that it would level the playing field to make it cater for all riders - you dont have to be super fit to get a good place if your good at downhill, however uping your fitness/speed would place you better.

conversly being fit fast uphill does not mean you finish well automatically, you also need to have the skills downhills.

it would prove the best all rounder mtbiker i think. Aiming to appeal to both xc riders, downhillers or like most folks those that fit somewhere inbetween.

Echoing MikeWWW's comments, I was at the UK Shools Games in Wharncliffe at the weekend and saw 36 Girls and 60+ Boys up to 16 racing in X Country, Dirt Crit, Uphill and Downhill events over the 3 days. The racing was very competitive and they seemed to be having a great time. I help/coach a 13 year old girl who came second in the 2 XC events in a field full of 16 year olds. Hopefully some of these riders will carry on to bigger things.

Just encase there's any confusion I totally agree with you oldgit, I don't think it should change, I can see some merit in running closely related formats (which to me, endurance racing and short track/eliminator events still fall under the banner of xc) to attract people to the idea of xc. But don't see the need to change it from what it is, a race across country.

Can you imagine Mtbers entering a hill climb competition? There used to be such events but no longer.

not hill climbs as such (that would suck) but ran over a normal course - like an enduro- but the hill sections (with flat bits of normal trail and such) and downhill sections are timed much like the enduro downhill sections are now.

Christoginger, why would a pure hill climb event suck? we run pure downhill events?

I think being fit is seen by some people as cheating. We keep coming back to this false idea of riders who are technically amazing but don't enter XC races because they can't use their skills. IME it's simply not true. Even in a pure DH race physical fitness is a big advantage.

I remeber the last MTB hillclimb I did nearly did for me, I actually crept off and had my mobile ready to ring 999.

not hill climbs as such (that would suck)

Anyone done the Frome Cobble Wobble? On paper it should be the worst value event ever (a fiver for 30 seconds of riding), in reality it was awesome fun. The winner last year wasn't your stereotypical whippet either.

cows_in_cars - Member

Sorry, maybe being stupid but not quite sure what direct connection the above response has to me saying that at elite level we are lacking real depth of talent?
Totally see in the long term the above will help and agreed with you about all but the top elite level racers.
The above sounds great and no I haven't been to a national series race in a long time, they are all rather far from were I live.
I apologise if I am missing something...

I haven't raced xc since I was a teenager, this thread has inspired me to give it ago again.

RE: A timed points up and down hill race, it could be a nice event but it wouldn't be xc, part of the point of xc is you are racing other people rather than the clock, it makes a big difference.

I remember there being some off road hill climb events when I was young, are any still around or is it only the road ones now? Speaking of which Catford HC is next month!

I think when you are so out of touch with the racing scene it is difficult to have an informed opinion. We have people like Kenta Gallagher, Grant Ferguson, Annie Last, Beth Crumpton who are starting to show on the world stage and the only way to compete at Elite level is to catch people in their teens.Have you any idea what it takes to become a world class XC mountain biker?

Eh not really sure why you seem to be attacking me? I am well aware of all those guys, I might not be at the races but still follow them in some form or other. I am in no way saying that they are rubbish but I do feel a bit disappointed watching the world cup races that there is no British presence, apart from Annie Last (and David fletcher and Grant Ferguson in the u23/juniors but we don't get to see them), near the front of the field. And as I said the depth of talent compared to downhill is not there.

And although I have no personal experience of aiming to be a world class xc mountain biker I imagine that hard doesn't even come close. I suspect that it also just as hard (apart from the improved image/media coverage) to be a world class downhiller. I am not anti british cycling. It's hard enough just trying to be an fast-ish amateur racer.

In terms of all the stuff that's put on for the youth riders, I think that's great and would have to say my club for youth riders is AWESOME. But what concerns me, is that, certainly within my local club, (maybe BC is better, and very happy to be told otherwise), there is nothing for them to go onto. They are given endless help and support, training sessions e.c.t but once they are past that age if they want to continue to ride and train off road there is nothing but a slow plod round the hills. I work a lot with young people, not in a sports context but know how so many find it so hard when they loose that support/structure and feel there is nothing for them and thus give up on pretty much anything. I am not saying that we shouldn't be helping youth riders in the slightest (and they will all give up or with al the help in the world they won't give up) but what concerns me is the middle ground. I tried to help the club fill that middle ground but it wasn't really that interested.

Plus the future of the sport doesn't need to just come from youth riders, hence why I think the lack of grass routes/local races is a problem. There could easily be someone out there that is world class potential but just needs an opportunity to have a go. A national level race is not always the best place for that, it's not a bad place, but when I started out I remember looking at national level races and being a bit scared to enter.

I am not trying to slate the top riders we have and happy to admit that my views are just that my views/ experiences but I am not with out knowledge of the sport, I am pretty geeky!

mrmo - it would suck if that were all the race consisted of in my opinion as riding uphill is not very exciting,challenging maybe, oh and its hard;)

So the answer seems to be stop riding so quickly, and let the chubsters go first down all the hills?

So the answer seems to be stop riding so quickly, and let the chubsters go first down all the hills?

The right course and climbing is good. maybe not to watch,

I think you just thought that out loud 🙂

We ran an uphill race for the first time ever this year in January.

It was fifteen minutes of pain for me, just over ten for the winner, but was a lot of fun and then we had the ride back down.

Keighley gate: from Ilkley college to the masts if anyone wants to join us un future

Just to add weight to my no depth in british xc I looked at the world xc rankings (yes I know that there could be some great riders that are missing because of the point system, but its a good gauge) and compared them to the downhill world rankings:
Elite xc mens we have: 4 ranked men in the top 200
Elite xc womens we have: 6 ranked in the top 200 (most a fair way down the rankings)
Elite DH mens we have: 26 ranked in the 200 (with a huge presence up the top of the board)
Elite womens DH we have: 11 in the 200 (again with most of them coming at the top of the board.
(makes great reading on the downhill side!!! very impressive)

Plus it I do think it's a shame that we have lost a number of top xc men, as njee20 said quite some time ago, to the road. Glad that they can get sponsors for themselves but it's not great for xc. Personally I loved seeing Ian Wilkinson ride, a really great character. My best memory from the fort william world championships was Wilko riding out of his skin, yes he wasn't challenging for the lead but was really pushing himself. And then doing his superman across the line! Still doing it on the road, but sad that he's gone for now at least, from mountain biking, when his aim was to make it to the London Olympics, not really going to happen now.

Sancho - Member
Having done some xc racing the complaints ive come across are that riders run sections rather than ride them, simply because its quicker, but if you were penalised for running then the whole idea is that a more skilled rider gains advantage. thus equalizing the skill/fitness a bit.

many years ago I had the same discussion re a section of a race route our club used to organise. It was a very steep rut with lots of roots(rigid/canti/v brake days) It was not called the Widow Maker for no reason!! There were the guys who were in the "it`s a race so it must be hard" camp and some of us who were in the " it is just plain daft and putting people off" camp. On a race day(route was used 3yrs running) the top riders were the ones more likely to get off and run down the hill. Why?? The reason they gave was that falling off and potentially losing points may cost them the championship.
I have never raced and am never likely to and after the crap we had to put up with from some riders I have no wish to get involved in the race scene again as an organiser.
I do think that there is room for grassroots racing and that courses should be set accordingly. Too many organisers lose the plot and want to make their tracks `arder than A.B.Cs race. Just my tuppence worth.
🙄

There is a good reason why a lot of young people regardless of what sport they participate in drop off the radar and that is their parents may not be able to support them any more. I remember travelling the country for a few years with my son when he was into rowing. Something I could not sustain 🙄
Someone mentioned Gareth Montgomery. I rode with Gareth when he was around 10yrs old, his dad and older brother who was also a good rider. There were quite a few young riders around at that time and they all mostly had parents who were into biking and willing to travel as far as was needed to allow their kids to participate in races. Living in SW Scotland means travelling North or South into England at some considerable expense to parents.
There are currently 3 teenagers from the same area as Gareth competing on the circuit supported by their parents. Ross Green, Jenna and Ryan Fenwick. How long they can keep it up, who knows 💡

how do people feel about this;

I mean I think its great

the good riders gained a massive advantage.

The organisers should put tape out to keep the dickhead supporters off the racing line and the riders should learn how to ride.

Plus the future of the sport doesn't need to just come from youth riders, hence why I think the lack of grass routes/local races is a problem. There could easily be someone out there that is world class potential but just needs an opportunity to have a go. A national level race is not always the best place for that, it's not a bad place, but when I started out I remember looking at national level races and being a bit scared to enter.

you should organise one/ a series, then there will be local grass roots events, if more racers did this there would be a healthy XC racing calendar everywhere like there is for road and TT

events don't just magic out of thin air 😉

Sancho - Member
how do people feel about this;

I mean I think its great

that video gets used as a "what not to do" on the BC MTBXC commissaires course

if you want your race to look like that then go for it

the good riders gained a massive advantage.

but go for it if you are keen

If you want to reward skilled riders you put sections in that take a level of skill to ride and a chicken run that takes longer - no running down the difficult route allowed.

the only point i have to make is that I watched my first XC race last weekend. Kullhavy won. boring.

CX is so good to ride but so bad to watch. it's not the coverage to blame but the lack of energy/skill/excitement. i can be excited when i ride XC BUT watching it... no!

i do of course admire the fitness of all the riders that raced on said freecaster live event but - how boring? lots!

watching downhill, wow.

Danny Hart or Kullhavy? Honestly?

Chubby baggy suited clowns, porting huge camelbaks around, filled with sports drinks, first aid kits, energy bars, wearing the latest colours, sporting this seasons helmet du jour, with gps tracking in case we get lost, out for 5 hours, actually riding for 2, as we stop every 10minutes because Jason and Amanda are new to this...
It's not a sport, its a jeffing mobile dinner party.

Nice. And often true.

XC racing is painful and you dont get many hours of riding for your cash plus chance of being shouted at by someone, nasty pile ups at first narrow point, having descents ruined by numpties and so on all put people off. To feel vaguely competitive you need a light bike that somewhat contradicts trends in general trail bikes where 120-160 mm travel and 27-30 lbs weight is now the norm.

That said Thetford and Gorrick pretty much sell out all winter and Beastway does quite well despite being in a hopeless location.

That BUCS is utter ****, Fun for a one off that's about it.

Anyway further to me wanting to run an XC race, it looks like we can get a semi permanent course.
It's a flat course, but classic in the way it turns from open field to tight woodland single track and back again.
don simon, I think I'd still go for counting the first three only -
Seniors all
Women
Juniors
Vets
When I race in the vet on the road that all they do, I'll still have an idea of where I came and who was in front of me.
It'll be interseting to see if there is a market for cheap basic XC racing. I'm thinking of winter Sundays and summer evening.

robsoctance, yes XC is by and large boring to watch, but imo DH is no better, too slow and i don't find any sport that has only one person on course interesting.

Oldgit, i personally think there is a market for a short course cheap midweek race series. The only question is what is your catchment area. Can you get enough riders to cover costs and make it a race.

mrmo
I'd hope to get the Woburn area riders racing. There are several MTB clubs in the area, add the roadies and the unattached and we should have enough.
I'd want it to fit into the £5 mark as our only real cost would be insurance.
A gym owns the land and considers it free advertising, plus they offer discounted membership to anyone riding. I'm also hoping the appeal of a gym, pool, sauna and cafe afterwards might be a draw.
AFAIK all we need first aid wise is someone qualified, which we have several of.

Insurance wise, might be worth talking to the Gorrick folk, as they have a cheaper and (IMO) better option than BC currently offer... It'll help keep your costs down....

One thing that has just crossed my mind that maybe has already been mentioned.
All these innovative ideas for different formats of XC to give riders an allegdly more level playing field - chicken runs, time penalties etc. have one thing still in common with a xc - A winner.
In normal xc - 100 people enter, 1 wins a few get close, the rest race against who's ever near by.
In all these variations - 100 people enter, 1 wins, a few get close, the rest race against who's ever near by.
If you've got 100 people in a race you've got a 1 in 100 chance of winning. Changing rules hasn't made anything more inclusive, or increased and individuals chance of winning.

Danny Hart or Kullhavy? Honestly?

I don't think anyone has said that it's interesting to watch, let alone compared to DH, I don't mind watching either, but I couldn't spend every weekend doing it! It's a bit like comparing the 100m to a marathon though, 4 minutes vs 2 hours. Still, that wasn't the point!

Good shout about Gorrick, suspect Jon would be willing to help - you're not treading on their toes after all 🙂

100m to a marathon though, 4 minutes vs 2 hours

4 mins for a 100m?. No wonder your not a sprinter 🙂

Haha! You know what I meant, DH is 4 minutes, XC 2 hours. So really it's like the 1500m to a marathon, but that's less valid, as both are [i]really[/i] boring to watch, even I can't get bored during the 100m!

An interesting thread so far.

But, this weird idea that XC races are full of roadies out for a day in the mud with no skill is quite frankly bollocks.

I've done a few races of various formats - from DH oriented enduros, to 10 hr races and proper XC.

XC was by far the hardest. You need to be both fit and skillful to win an XC race.

If "skillful" riders want to do better then they need to be fitter. Its a simple as that (and I am firmly in the need to get fitter category). The idea that bunches of technically capable riders are being held up behind XC whippets mincing down descents is pure fantasy. The good XC guys are also flying down the technical bits on their race bikes

I rode my Blur LT round the course at Ten Under the Ben and yes if I had Trek Top Fuel I might have been a bit faster on the climbs but if I'd put a few more hours in training I would have been a whole heap faster. I was occasionally frustrated by catching people on singletrack sections only to see them disapear up the fireroad. But really its down to me, if I had been fitter I would have been as fast (or faster) on the fireroad and still been quick on the singletrack (like the guys who were winning)

The idea that bunches of technically capable riders are being held up behind XC whippets mincing down descents is pure fantasy.

I'm not sure where anyone has said that?

All the people I've ridden with who've raced XC at a decent level were very very good in terms of all round bike/technical skills - but people walking/running the technical sections (for whatever reason) just looks bad - if people want the sport to develop then the image is important surely?

One of the best XC races I watched was from Australia where you had multiple lines of differing technicality.

[i]if people want the sport to develop then the image is important surely?[/i]

No.
Sport is sport.