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And I dont mean gravity enduro where ex downhill racers clean up.
Maybe that's because they are the best all round mountain bikers? :shrug:
I think there are enough people on full sus bikes who'd like to race to fill an event, not all events are about persuading newbies to race.
Racing isnt all about inclusion, its about competition.
Agree with Oldgit I must say on that, the majority of people at a race are not up to a much more technical course. Watching the 100 or so Fun riders on the first lap at a Gorrick in the first bit of singletrack it's often utter carnage! If you started making things properly technical I suspect a proportion would give up, and you wouldn't replace them.
Very technical courses would still benefit a few people, just a different few to having no technical features, and would probably alienate more people, as I'll wager people are more likely to get disheartened and not come back because a course was too difficult compared to one which was too easy.
Racing isnt all about inclusion, its about competition.
That's precisely why it struggles - an elitist attitude like that!
Sorry just drifting off here, but just remembered the Scotish lads riding pure slammed XC race hardtails at the first Stathpuffer.
Good XC riders don't need to be biked up, those Scotish kids were an inspiration.
What is needed is XC for the 5" mountain bike brigade, a race where the 5" bike is the ideal machine and I think Ive found the format.
What you're saying is for a xc series to succeed we need to move away from xc and into another discipline? That's akin to saying the 110m hurdles would be a lot faster and exciting if we removed those obstacles and made the course 10m shorter!!
The problem is attracting people at grass root. I've seen fast smooth World Cup circuits and slower much more technical circuits. There are xc circuits around that your average weekend warrior would baulk at on their 5" steeds yet the xc racer skips through without a second thought.
Racing isnt all about inclusion, its about competition.
Yes, but wasn't this thread about the state of international XC racing, i.e. racing in a manner that matches the UCI guidelines for what an XC race is. we have races in this country and our riders are, brutally, crap. How do you improve this? increase the size of the pool, increase the quality of the racing, does creating new formats address this.
How can you improve things? i guess money at the sharp end, make winning races pay, but you need to get people in at the bottom which means races close to where people live, and lots of them. Some will get the bug and progress others won't.
That's precisely why it struggles - an elitist attitude like that!
But isnt this thread about racing. By definition its elitist but it can also be inclusive. In racing everybody cant win but their is still competition between individuals through the field.
I love racing but seldom win.
We shouldnt be scared of promoting racing because we scare people off. People need to feel that they can join in but if its not for them then fine. Doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.
[i]However I also want to look at new formats where the current mountain bike that is ridden by a lot of people is the ideal machine, currently there is no format for that at the moment.[/i]
I think the problem is largely down to it isn't ever going to be the ideal machine for competition. It's a bit like trying to arrange a running race that favours Wellington boots.
That's not to say Wellies aren't great, just that you'd have to come up with something fantastically convoluted to give them an advantage in any sort of competitive event.
How can you improve things? i guess money at the sharp end, make winning races pay, but you need to get people in at the bottom which means races close to where people live, and lots of them. Some will get the bug and progress others won't.
Is there no prize money at local level BC events?
surfer that's well put. I don't know the Summit guys but they put on a good show, pretty well like youve spelt it out there.
I think there arent enough local events.
But who'd bother organisng something.
I suggest two races and get flamed.
Maybe it comes down to the attitudes of mountain bikers..
Ill still be doing my road events but may put off the mtb stuff in favour of cross.
Are riders in it for the money on the way up, I'd of thought not.
Are riders in it for the money on the way up, I'd of thought not.
Clearly not because there isn't any money, so the top guys...Hang on!
Surely if solutions are being sought, money in the pot might be a solution, no?
Cheap, regular, local races have to be the way forward. Beastway, Matchams years ago, that kind of thing.
The anemic looking lycra'd up chappies riding super lightweight (fitness compensators) through nothing much more challenging than a ploughed field is the reason I didn't start MTBing years ago. If we were to return to that elitist attitude where people carry their bikes over bits because it's faster than riding, we'd see a massive decline in the sport IMO. Attitudes like crikeys are thankfully in the decline and popularity has grown as a result.
Racing is different, more power to anyone who competes but to suggest that being a competitive racer should be everyones aim is way off the mark.
Harry_the_Spider - Member
Oh Gawd, I've just found myself agreeing with big_n_daft... but he has a point.
you can get a cream for it 😉
the 2007 meeting was hysterical, no real clue, 80% of the people who went disappear never to be seen again
sancho youre not. But here's my 2p worth.
Hold a 'local' event that's technical and requires riders to be highly skilled and capable, and I'll guess you wont have many show. Different if you bigged it up and made it a one off, but we are talking sustainable racing.
Hold a 'classic' XC race that will suit everyone and you'll get people turning up week after week. Chuck in a ten minute kids race and you'll be able to justify taking along the other half and taking the time to race.
If we were to return to that elitist attitude where people carry their bikes over bits because it's faster than riding, we'd see a massive decline in the sport IMO. Attitudes like crikeys are thankfully in the decline and popularity has grown as a result.
Racing is different, more power to anyone who competes but to suggest that being a competitive racer should be everyones aim is way off the mark.
But nobody is saying that. The debate is about XC performance. The objective of racing is to get from A to B as quickly as possible within the rules and spirit of the event. You refer to this objective in a pjerotaive way.
Racing performance and popularity are two different things. I would argue that in sport the popularity of certain sports has been to the detriment of performance. I happen to think that performance is important and we now shy away and perpetuate rubbish about what constitutes "training" and "performance" my opinion is more alligned with Crikey and oldgit.
The anemic looking lycra'd up chappies riding super lightweight (fitness compensators) through nothing much more challenging than a ploughed field
So it is an image thing? I've done very few (although not no!) courses that are riding around fields. It's hiddeously dull, it's hated by the riders as well, I'm not really sure where that comes from, but it still seems to be a common perception of XC races by the masses.
We shouldnt be scared of promoting racing because we scare people off. People need to feel that they can join in but if its not for them then fine. Doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.
Agreed, perhaps I needed to include the rest of Sancho's comment, about not everything encouraging newbies. Whilst I do agree to an extent, it's a brave organiser who goes out of their way to alienate what is the largest proportion of riders. Having multiple races on crazy technical courses which can't be ridden by many will not improve the sport in any way. IMO.
wrekcer, why? i see people in body armour and think do i really want to do something that dangerous?
In the early / mid 80s British rowing clubs were struggling to get ordinary Joe into their membership as the clubs were considered elitist.
Many of them organised fun rows, with full traing leading up to a fun event. The winners and anyone else interested then had the opportunity to choose if they wanted to continue.
This was my intro to rowing, which I enjoyed for a couple of years until personal circumstance meant I could no longer commit to a crew.
If , given the obvious concern about xc racing dying out, it is to regenerate, it will be ordinary joe who will need to come on side to do that. They will need encouraging, perhaps by feeling welcome in the first instance and not being made to feel as though they are entering a world of elitism, they will not sacrifice their trailbike for an out and out xc bike just to "give it a go". Just maybe a " fun" series alongside current full-on events may be worth a look on a run what you brung basis. Attracting say just 5% of the folk charging round the Forestry Commision on a sunday morning would give a massive boost, but they wont come unless they genuinely feel welcome. As I said earlier, personally I don't really want to race, but thoroughly understand why folk do and remember what a huge part of mtb in Britain xc was. Of the 7 or 8 guys I regularly get out on the local trails with, one of them used to do trailquest, but prefers riding trails as a means of riding, staying fit and being with his mates, if I include him and maybe 2 others amongst us, there are 3 riders who would make good competitors, but they really feel it's not for them.
I'm going to shut up now as I feel I'm interjecting in something not really of my business, although I think the trick is in persuading folk to give it a go and the XC comunity may need to meet those it wants to attract half way and go from there.
Having multiple races on crazy technical courses which can't be ridden by many will not improve the sport in any way. IMO.
He actually suggested just having technical options with chicken runs that would add a significant time penalty didn't he - mind you they do this already don't they in XC racing? And the trouble is there's often nothing to stop people just getting off and running down the technical section if they don't fancy riding it.
to be a good DHer you need to be fit, but for the less fit you can buy a skill compensator and seem better than you are.
Errrrrr, have you ever seen a DH race? The average weekend warrior would be DFL.
As evidenced by the number of DNS's at the National Champs last weekend, people thought they could get away with turning up and rolling down the hill, but those days are long gone. Somethign like 1/3 of the field left on Saturday after timed practice! Takes a lot more than balls and money to gat a good position now.
So a race where an XC racer on his hardtail wont make up ten minutes as the race goes up a fire road and then loses ten seconds on an easy descent, you need fast lines downhill with jumps that require a lot of skill and committment v an xc descent that will cost you a couple of minutes. thus keeping things tight in the racing and interesting for people to watch. etc.
Did you tee the WC Champrey course, the decents would put a lot of downhill runs in the UK to shame, and the bike of choice was still a hardtail, and the Olympic course would put Black runs at trail centers to shame!
I tag allong with quite a few clubs through the year and the standards vary imensely. Some are full of crap riders who just know the trails so appear fast, others are massively unfit, and talk the downhill/enduro talk before slogging up and down on fire roads with the occasional waterbar for 4 hours.
On the other hand, others are just f***** fast! Generaly it's the quiet ones on unassuming hardtails you have to watch out for.
courses dont have to be bonkers with jumps etc to favour the technicaly gifted rider. The big dog course in brighton shows this. Its all rideable but those that have the ability can gain some serious time on the technical bits. so it is not just a climbing race.
The gravity enduro courses are all rideable but offer the skilled opportunity to gain an advantage. by timing the climbs you get a proper xc race dont you?
the off putting bit about an XC race at the moment is riding around boring courses while getting beaten by a roadie. i`m not sure that is representitive of what xc riding is any more. For most riders i know they ride around in circles, yes, but they do so in order to get in all the fun, technical, and challenging singletrack they can find.
So you want lees people partaking in MTBing so that the few can be more competitive?
Less people=less money
Less money=less investment, less trails, less products, less leverage for access, less exposure, less magazines.
Some people make a living out of MTBing (products and services) so you want all of those people to go broke too.
All because some people want faster racers and don't like others wearing baggy shorts.
Some of us view MTBing like diving, climbing, surfing etc. It's a great way to spend time and I don't want to ruin my enjoyment of this by taking it too seriously. It changes from "fun" to "training", and that is not what I want from riding my bike.
Lets not get into the bike carrying thing again, we've established that carrying may be required in any form of cycling at some point. Personally I've never seen carrying ever in an XC race only in enduros, cross and 24s.
Right. I'm going to put on an XC race that suits the big bikes. I'll need some decent hills, gnarly singletrack and jumps at least. I'll need permission and access to race on this course. Ideally private land so I don't have to ask to many people to give up there day to marshall any paths etc. Then of course I'll have to get risk assesment and insurance to cover it. Will an ambulance be able to get to the course...helicopters are a bit costly. Sounds easy so far. that just leave me enough time to go round taking down the course and picking up gel pouches before it gets dark. The day after I'll pay for the venue, buy some more numbers because folk have gone home with theirs. Then I'll sort out the results, have a cuppa then do it all again next week.
Actually I might just get permission to race round a few farmers fields, that'll cost a bottle and some flowers for his missus. Most of the course can be left up. And access for riders and sevices is already there. And I promise not to giggle at that bloke again on the big full susser struggling with the dried up tractor ruts.
TINAS, i think you have made my point, if you know the local trails and have a skill compensator you can bluff your way and claim to be a good dher, come to racing and you will be shown up. Bluffing XC is far harder, if your slow up hill however much you spend your still going to be slow up hill.
But the Big Dog course is similar to the vast majority of XC courses, in fact it's significantly less technical than many!
the off putting bit about an XC race at the moment is riding around boring courses while getting beaten by a roadie
Which courses are like that these days though? I can't think of a single one this year. Sherwood isn't remotely 'technical' in that families could easily ride the course, but at the speeds people are riding the singletrack there's still a [i]degree[/i] of skill required.
I know what you mean about 'technical' and 'needing balls' being different - a jump or a drop is more the latter, people either do it or not, they're polarised and it doesn't really benefit the race all that much. A very fast piece of sinewy singletrack is more the former. But most courses are all about fast bits of trail where a skilled rider can still gain a lot of time over the less skilled.
oldgit, your idea of a race (the first one) sounds really good. The second one less so.
😀Right. I'm going to put on an XC race that suits the big bikes. I'll need some decent hills, gnarly singletrack and jumps at least. I'll need permission and access to race on this course. Ideally private land so I don't have to ask to many people to give up there day to marshall any paths etc. Then of course I'll have to get risk assesment and insurance to cover it. Will an ambulance be able to get to the course...helicopters are a bit costly. Sounds easy so far. that just leave me enough time to go round taking down the course and picking up gel pouches before it gets dark. The day after I'll pay for the venue, buy some more numbers because folk have gone home with theirs. Then I'll sort out the results, have a cuppa then do it all again next [s]week[/s] [b]year[/b].
More details on another [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/hit-the-north-feb-25th-2012 ]thread[/url].
The problem is that in a good head down XC position you can't see where you are going with a peak on your helmet.
😛
I know what you mean about 'technical' and 'needing balls' being different - a jump or a drop is more the latter, people either do it or not, they're polarised and it doesn't really benefit the race all that much.
What's wrong with mountain biking needing balls as well as skill and fitness? Just because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean it wouldn't 'benefit the race'.
Wrecker: Good points. My mountain biking enjoyment is really an extension of the several other things I do ( surf, windsurf, snowboard, mountain walk). Not driven by a constant competetive desire.
However time after time I come across folk who do seem that way inclined, but "xc racer" is not a tag they want. I still think to bring xc back it needs to re-invent itself.
I'm really going now, have only tried to look at this from an outsider's / potentially interested p.o.v !
So you want lees people partaking in MTBing so that the few can be more competitive?
Who said that?
How does adding another event that may be suitable for some riders dilute the interest in MTB'ing? I think you have missed the point (or mine certainly)
I'm not really sure where that comes from, but it still seems to be a common perception of XC races by the masses.
+1
i only started racing when i had no-one to ride with and my mates went to a race - I was very pleasantly surprised that it was actually a fun course.
What's wrong with mountain biking needing balls as well as skill and fitness? Just because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean it wouldn't 'benefit the race'.
I didn't say anything about what I like or don't, not really sure why you're getting so aggressive about it? Personally I derive a lot of pleasure from a technical course, or a particular section. If I can't do it/am losing time, it's an area for improvement, which is good to identify.
I just meant that a lot of people think XC races should be made more technical. By which they mean putting in a gap jump, or a 4ft drop. That doesn't really enhance the race. People either do it, or they don't. If they don't they may try, screw it up, walk down it and get in the way. Or... they make take a chicken run and lose a few seconds. If you have a 'technical' descent a lot more time can be lost.
It needs balls regardless, it'd be daft to suggest that it doesn't. Take a newbie/non cyclist around the Dalby WC course, there'll be sections they'll almost certainly not like the look of.
some points
How can you improve things? i guess money at the sharp end, make winning races pay, but you need to get people in at the bottom which means races close to where people live, and lots of them. Some will get the bug and progress others won't.
Our prizes are all via the generous sponsors
Racers £200 in [b]Leisure Lakes[/b] Vouchers/ race (£100,£50,£25, £25 prime)
[b][u]prize parity for the women[/u][/b]
Racing Diva's £200 in [b]Cooksons Cycles[/b] Vouchers (£100,£50,£25, £25 prime)
Weekend Warriors sponsored by [b]Big Bear Bikes[/b] (£80,£40,£20)
Series prizes of [b]Hope[/b] SPXC6 wheelsets, Brakesets, lights etc
chicken feed? (all on a £10 entry (series preentry))
If we were to return to that elitist attitude where people carry their bikes over bits because it's faster than riding, we'd see a massive decline in the sport IMO.
our courses are as technical as it gets for XC at a local level and if you walk you lose, our numbers are up this year
Hold a 'local' event that's technical and requires riders to be highly skilled and capable, and I'll guess you wont have many show. Different if you bigged it up and made it a one off, but we are talking sustainable racing.Hold a 'classic' XC race that will suit everyone and you'll get people turning up week after week. Chuck in a ten minute kids race and you'll be able to justify taking along the other half and taking the time to race.
Very technical courses would still benefit a few people, just a different few to having no technical features, and would probably alienate more people, as I'll wager people are more likely to get disheartened and not come back because a course was too difficult compared to one which was too easy.
we run two courses, one technical, one less so, requires lots of thought, signage and marshals. Our numbers are up this year, we are trying to get accessible local coaching off the ground, we are seeing riders progress, there are a group of talented kids now racing etc
Cheap, regular, local races have to be the way forward. Beastway, Matchams years ago, that kind of thing.
£10 a race cheap enough?
We shouldnt be scared of promoting racing because we scare people off. People need to feel that they can join in but if its not for them then fine. Doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.
+1
[b]oldgit and Sancho get in touch, we want to help other (not for profit) organisers to get off the ground (essentially because we want cheap races to enter, we seem to be busy on race day at our local series 😉 )[/b]
The only way to get something done is to do it yourself.
if you want a local race "scene" you need to do the work and put into the sport "ask not what your sport can do for you etc......" even if it's only cajoling someone to marshal at the event you are racing at
2011 series finale 2nd October riders and marshals wanted
www.brownbacksracing.co.uk
Lets rein this back in a bit. Comments from folk who don't want to race and see it as an objectionable side of the sport don't really help.
Just trying to make a point there when I said the farmers field. Most are pretty technical, in fact I've bottled a few 😳
And please remember XC racing is man against man first, then terrain.
The problem with bringing in technical stuff which we all love is that it becomes difficult to race and you tend to end up with just a fast preccession. Like racing F1 on a circuit only the width of one car.
We are also talking about 'sustainable' racing i.e week in week out. so you need venues that people can come to each week. Then think of the wear and tear that causes.
Think about the realities.
[i]And please remember XC racing is man against man first, then terrain.[/i]
Ah! maybe for you and I but not for the majority of people you would want to attract I suspect
Lets rein this back in a bit. Comments from folk who don't want to race and see it as an objectionable side of the sport don't really help.
Nobody has suggested that racing is objectionable, certainly not me.
I'd say it's optional and comments from those who do race demeaning all those who don't will always provoke a response.
£10!
In all seriousness I want to offer easy access midweek racing for like minded folk, experienced and newbies alike.
I have a pretty okay course. The simple stuff is hacking ground, there's a good section of dense woodland singletrack, a fast gravel service road and part of it runs over a tank driving area. Weather would have a massive influence on the race. I just need to check to see if I can keep drainage ditches and fallen trees in.
That for a fiver.
Good parking, gym with cafe on site. In fact you'll get cheap membership so could have a swim or sauna or whatever afterwards.
Race numbers, but places for only the top 3 or 10. If I can sort full timings for everyone I will.
Prize money would be a % of the days takings.
Mobile bike mechanic with spares on site.
The idea is it would just give people a chance to have a blast. Then if they like it they can try other series like FNSS and the Summit Series. Then hopefully they'll travel to the Gorricks and Thetfords races
Ah! maybe for you and I but not for the majority of people you would want to attract I suspect
I dunno, people do feel a sense of achievement when they beat the bloke who always beats them, or they get the top half or whatever. In the shakedown after a race more people talk about having been top 10/20/half/not last than having cleaned the whole course. People are realistic, and many are happy to race for 39th in Fun.
what Im hoping to achieve is a course that incorporates fire roads tech rooty woods, rock sections and some fast flowing singletrack.
my plan was for multiple line choices based on skill level
the more skilled rider obviously getting an advantage both up and down, and for riders wanting to carry their bikes through technical sections there would be marshalls on hand to give you a ten second stop - go penalty for being a pussy.
Personally I think it will be great. Like I said I have the private land with all the above so sustainability is not an issue, just need to get organising.
different weeks will see variations of the course and could include less technical events for pure xc. or cross.
The willy waving thing gets to me sometimes.
It appears to me that blasting down a hill as fast as poss is greeted with acclaim and respect (quite rightly). But then someone like myself (who's not right clever on the techy downhill stuff) that likes the physical challenge and hammers up a hill or hits a long flattish swoopy section as fast as poss. gets labelled as a willy waver?
I'm also from a running background having run competitively for a 'club' way back. The whole ethos of running clubs is totally different from mtb clubs, where the majority do it for 'fun' as opposed to viewing it as a 'sport'. I'm quite happy to enjoy both sides nowadays, riding with a group taking lots of time riding not very far, playing about on interesting trails etc. But if I'm honest I get more enjoyment still when I'm pushing myself really hard on challenging (physically) terrain.
I suppose I try and wave my willy in private now, or with another consenting adult 
what Im hoping to achieve is a course that incorporates fire roads tech rooty woods, rock sections and some fast flowing singletrack.
So an XC course?
for riders wanting to carry their bikes through technical sections there would be marshalls on hand to give you a ten second stop - go penalty for being a pussy.
Competent rider A attempts technical section, gets line wrong, stalls, gets off and walks. Then what? Furthermore, competent rider B behind sees floundering rider A on the 'a line' and takes the now faster chicken run. Is he stopped for 10 seconds? Should he just stop on the trail and wait for the obstacle to be clear?
Serious practicality issues to implement, better to just make the chicken run slower.