[Closed] british xc

What is needed is XC for the 5" mountain bike brigade, a race where the 5" bike is the ideal machine and I think Ive found the format.

If you look at motorbike enduro events like the "Tough One" its the skilled riders with fitness that win not the skilled rider or simply the fit rider, you need a race where a balance of skill and fitness and where some balls count too.

So a race where an XC racer on his hardtail wont make up ten minutes as the race goes up a fire road and then loses ten seconds on an easy descent, you need fast lines downhill with jumps that require a lot of skill and committment v an xc descent that will cost you a couple of minutes. thus keeping things tight in the racing and interesting for people to watch. etc.

I think Ive got a venue in mind and a format too.

I went to a meeting at British Cycling HQ in December 2007 on this very subject. Big_n_daft was there too. Much was spoken about a race series, support and organisation, none of which came to fruition.

From what I can gather the only two series of events that emerged from it were ones that were already planned.

The only way to get something done is to do it yourself.

"The only way to get something done is to do it yourself"

couldnt agree more.

As for comments on the British not being good at Marathon racing.

Did you see Neil Cramptons result at Cristalp this year?

17th!! and that is a result and a half.

sancho I don't mean to disagree with you on everything, but fast downhills jumps that require skill and commitment...no.

Just been reading an email from a friend that summed it up. Local MTB stuff freindly and accessible, national stuff hard fast and technical not first time friendly.
That's all we need, just more of it.
As it stands, does it really matter how interesting it is to spectators? racing is for the racers first and foremost.

As for the velodrome, a lot of road racers want to race track but have no facilities in the north East, so the Leeds veleodrome was intended to develop grass roots track racers.
As Manchester is very busy and not that accessible for a lot of people especially schools.

As for BC supporting grass roots events, they are happy to take your money, but dont provide much in the way of support - not even a Gazebo, the TLI is easier to deal with.

sancho, but don't you think that such a course would actually dissuade newbies, and if part of the problem is attracting new riders to racing? Do most people have 5" bikes or is the reality that most riders are on Hardtails, bikes cost money and i think some people forget that it is not normal to spend upwards of 2K on a bike.

And to be brutal MTB racing of any form isn't actually that exciting to watch. that includes 4x which is about the only form of racing where you actually see riders in close proximity, DH is a glorified time trials and often XC isn't much better.

What is needed is XC for the 5" mountain bike brigade, a race where the 5" bike is the ideal machine and I think Ive found the format.

Doesn't it already exist? Eg the Gravity Enduro series. And it seems judging by the responses here if you want a 'proper' XC race people will be resistant to it having difficult stuff in it.

Oldgit, I agree with you as I want to organise old school XC racing where the lightweight hardtail with the fittest rider is king.
However I also want to look at new formats where the current mountain bike that is ridden by a lot of people is the ideal machine, currently there is no format for that at the moment.

And I dont mean gravity enduro where ex downhill racers clean up.

I went to a meeting at British Cycling HQ in December 2007 on this very subject. Big_n_daft was there too. Much was spoken about a race series, support and organisation, none of which came to fruition.

Harry five years ago. We want to hold races XC and CX. We contacted BC and they came to us ( a four month old club) what they've offered is everything. We sort the venue, provide a firts aider and lay the course. They'll provide numbers, tape and stakes, all paperwork, a judge/commissaire, BC gazebo and bestest of all the ball...woo hoo.

The Hairy Coo is a grassroots xc race. Every year we hope that there is not a cyclo-cross race scheduled nearby which pulls riders away. This year there is a big British cyclo-cross thing over the border and a 24 hour thing up in F.W. No clash then?
It is cheap to enter and fun to ride. Skill and fitness wins it.

And I dont mean gravity enduro where ex downhill racers clean up.

Maybe that's because they are the best all round mountain bikers? :shrug:

I think there are enough people on full sus bikes who'd like to race to fill an event, not all events are about persuading newbies to race.

Racing isnt all about inclusion, its about competition.

Agree with Oldgit I must say on that, the majority of people at a race are not up to a much more technical course. Watching the 100 or so Fun riders on the first lap at a Gorrick in the first bit of singletrack it's often utter carnage! If you started making things properly technical I suspect a proportion would give up, and you wouldn't replace them.

Very technical courses would still benefit a few people, just a different few to having no technical features, and would probably alienate more people, as I'll wager people are more likely to get disheartened and not come back because a course was too difficult compared to one which was too easy.

Racing isnt all about inclusion, its about competition.

That's precisely why it struggles - an elitist attitude like that!

Sorry just drifting off here, but just remembered the Scotish lads riding pure slammed XC race hardtails at the first Stathpuffer.
Good XC riders don't need to be biked up, those Scotish kids were an inspiration.

What is needed is XC for the 5" mountain bike brigade, a race where the 5" bike is the ideal machine and I think Ive found the format.

Racing isnt all about inclusion, its about competition.

Yes, but wasn't this thread about the state of international XC racing, i.e. racing in a manner that matches the UCI guidelines for what an XC race is. we have races in this country and our riders are, brutally, crap. How do you improve this? increase the size of the pool, increase the quality of the racing, does creating new formats address this.

How can you improve things? i guess money at the sharp end, make winning races pay, but you need to get people in at the bottom which means races close to where people live, and lots of them. Some will get the bug and progress others won't.

That's precisely why it struggles - an elitist attitude like that!

But isnt this thread about racing. By definition its elitist but it can also be inclusive. In racing everybody cant win but their is still competition between individuals through the field.
I love racing but seldom win.
We shouldnt be scared of promoting racing because we scare people off. People need to feel that they can join in but if its not for them then fine. Doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.

[i]However I also want to look at new formats where the current mountain bike that is ridden by a lot of people is the ideal machine, currently there is no format for that at the moment.[/i]

I think the problem is largely down to it isn't ever going to be the ideal machine for competition. It's a bit like trying to arrange a running race that favours Wellington boots.
That's not to say Wellies aren't great, just that you'd have to come up with something fantastically convoluted to give them an advantage in any sort of competitive event.

How can you improve things? i guess money at the sharp end, make winning races pay, but you need to get people in at the bottom which means races close to where people live, and lots of them. Some will get the bug and progress others won't.

surfer that's well put. I don't know the Summit guys but they put on a good show, pretty well like youve spelt it out there.

I think there arent enough local events.
But who'd bother organisng something.

I suggest two races and get flamed.
Maybe it comes down to the attitudes of mountain bikers..
Ill still be doing my road events but may put off the mtb stuff in favour of cross.

Are riders in it for the money on the way up, I'd of thought not.

Are riders in it for the money on the way up, I'd of thought not.

Cheap, regular, local races have to be the way forward. Beastway, Matchams years ago, that kind of thing.

The anemic looking lycra'd up chappies riding super lightweight (fitness compensators) through nothing much more challenging than a ploughed field is the reason I didn't start MTBing years ago. If we were to return to that elitist attitude where people carry their bikes over bits because it's faster than riding, we'd see a massive decline in the sport IMO. Attitudes like crikeys are thankfully in the decline and popularity has grown as a result.
Racing is different, more power to anyone who competes but to suggest that being a competitive racer should be everyones aim is way off the mark.

Harry_the_Spider - Member
Oh Gawd, I've just found myself agreeing with big_n_daft... but he has a point.

you can get a cream for it 😉

the 2007 meeting was hysterical, no real clue, 80% of the people who went disappear never to be seen again

sancho youre not. But here's my 2p worth.

Hold a 'local' event that's technical and requires riders to be highly skilled and capable, and I'll guess you wont have many show. Different if you bigged it up and made it a one off, but we are talking sustainable racing.

Hold a 'classic' XC race that will suit everyone and you'll get people turning up week after week. Chuck in a ten minute kids race and you'll be able to justify taking along the other half and taking the time to race.

If we were to return to that elitist attitude where people carry their bikes over bits because it's faster than riding, we'd see a massive decline in the sport IMO. Attitudes like crikeys are thankfully in the decline and popularity has grown as a result.
Racing is different, more power to anyone who competes but to suggest that being a competitive racer should be everyones aim is way off the mark.

But nobody is saying that. The debate is about XC performance. The objective of racing is to get from A to B as quickly as possible within the rules and spirit of the event. You refer to this objective in a pjerotaive way.
Racing performance and popularity are two different things. I would argue that in sport the popularity of certain sports has been to the detriment of performance. I happen to think that performance is important and we now shy away and perpetuate rubbish about what constitutes "training" and "performance" my opinion is more alligned with Crikey and oldgit.

The anemic looking lycra'd up chappies riding super lightweight (fitness compensators) through nothing much more challenging than a ploughed field

So it is an image thing? I've done very few (although not no!) courses that are riding around fields. It's hiddeously dull, it's hated by the riders as well, I'm not really sure where that comes from, but it still seems to be a common perception of XC races by the masses.

We shouldnt be scared of promoting racing because we scare people off. People need to feel that they can join in but if its not for them then fine. Doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.

Agreed, perhaps I needed to include the rest of Sancho's comment, about not everything encouraging newbies. Whilst I do agree to an extent, it's a brave organiser who goes out of their way to alienate what is the largest proportion of riders. Having multiple races on crazy technical courses which can't be ridden by many will not improve the sport in any way. IMO.

wrekcer, why? i see people in body armour and think do i really want to do something that dangerous?

In the early / mid 80s British rowing clubs were struggling to get ordinary Joe into their membership as the clubs were considered elitist.
Many of them organised fun rows, with full traing leading up to a fun event. The winners and anyone else interested then had the opportunity to choose if they wanted to continue.
This was my intro to rowing, which I enjoyed for a couple of years until personal circumstance meant I could no longer commit to a crew.
If , given the obvious concern about xc racing dying out, it is to regenerate, it will be ordinary joe who will need to come on side to do that. They will need encouraging, perhaps by feeling welcome in the first instance and not being made to feel as though they are entering a world of elitism, they will not sacrifice their trailbike for an out and out xc bike just to "give it a go". Just maybe a " fun" series alongside current full-on events may be worth a look on a run what you brung basis. Attracting say just 5% of the folk charging round the Forestry Commision on a sunday morning would give a massive boost, but they wont come unless they genuinely feel welcome. As I said earlier, personally I don't really want to race, but thoroughly understand why folk do and remember what a huge part of mtb in Britain xc was. Of the 7 or 8 guys I regularly get out on the local trails with, one of them used to do trailquest, but prefers riding trails as a means of riding, staying fit and being with his mates, if I include him and maybe 2 others amongst us, there are 3 riders who would make good competitors, but they really feel it's not for them.
I'm going to shut up now as I feel I'm interjecting in something not really of my business, although I think the trick is in persuading folk to give it a go and the XC comunity may need to meet those it wants to attract half way and go from there.

Having multiple races on crazy technical courses which can't be ridden by many will not improve the sport in any way. IMO.

He actually suggested just having technical options with chicken runs that would add a significant time penalty didn't he - mind you they do this already don't they in XC racing? And the trouble is there's often nothing to stop people just getting off and running down the technical section if they don't fancy riding it.

to be a good DHer you need to be fit, but for the less fit you can buy a skill compensator and seem better than you are.

Errrrrr, have you ever seen a DH race? The average weekend warrior would be DFL.

As evidenced by the number of DNS's at the National Champs last weekend, people thought they could get away with turning up and rolling down the hill, but those days are long gone. Somethign like 1/3 of the field left on Saturday after timed practice! Takes a lot more than balls and money to gat a good position now.

So a race where an XC racer on his hardtail wont make up ten minutes as the race goes up a fire road and then loses ten seconds on an easy descent, you need fast lines downhill with jumps that require a lot of skill and committment v an xc descent that will cost you a couple of minutes. thus keeping things tight in the racing and interesting for people to watch. etc.

Did you tee the WC Champrey course, the decents would put a lot of downhill runs in the UK to shame, and the bike of choice was still a hardtail, and the Olympic course would put Black runs at trail centers to shame!

I tag allong with quite a few clubs through the year and the standards vary imensely. Some are full of crap riders who just know the trails so appear fast, others are massively unfit, and talk the downhill/enduro talk before slogging up and down on fire roads with the occasional waterbar for 4 hours.

On the other hand, others are just f***** fast! Generaly it's the quiet ones on unassuming hardtails you have to watch out for.

courses dont have to be bonkers with jumps etc to favour the technicaly gifted rider. The big dog course in brighton shows this. Its all rideable but those that have the ability can gain some serious time on the technical bits. so it is not just a climbing race.

The gravity enduro courses are all rideable but offer the skilled opportunity to gain an advantage. by timing the climbs you get a proper xc race dont you?

the off putting bit about an XC race at the moment is riding around boring courses while getting beaten by a roadie. i`m not sure that is representitive of what xc riding is any more. For most riders i know they ride around in circles, yes, but they do so in order to get in all the fun, technical, and challenging singletrack they can find.

So you want lees people partaking in MTBing so that the few can be more competitive?
Less people=less money
Less money=less investment, less trails, less products, less leverage for access, less exposure, less magazines.
Some people make a living out of MTBing (products and services) so you want all of those people to go broke too.
All because some people want faster racers and don't like others wearing baggy shorts.
Some of us view MTBing like diving, climbing, surfing etc. It's a great way to spend time and I don't want to ruin my enjoyment of this by taking it too seriously. It changes from "fun" to "training", and that is not what I want from riding my bike.

Lets not get into the bike carrying thing again, we've established that carrying may be required in any form of cycling at some point. Personally I've never seen carrying ever in an XC race only in enduros, cross and 24s.

Right. I'm going to put on an XC race that suits the big bikes. I'll need some decent hills, gnarly singletrack and jumps at least. I'll need permission and access to race on this course. Ideally private land so I don't have to ask to many people to give up there day to marshall any paths etc. Then of course I'll have to get risk assesment and insurance to cover it. Will an ambulance be able to get to the course...helicopters are a bit costly. Sounds easy so far. that just leave me enough time to go round taking down the course and picking up gel pouches before it gets dark. The day after I'll pay for the venue, buy some more numbers because folk have gone home with theirs. Then I'll sort out the results, have a cuppa then do it all again next week.

Actually I might just get permission to race round a few farmers fields, that'll cost a bottle and some flowers for his missus. Most of the course can be left up. And access for riders and sevices is already there. And I promise not to giggle at that bloke again on the big full susser struggling with the dried up tractor ruts.

TINAS, i think you have made my point, if you know the local trails and have a skill compensator you can bluff your way and claim to be a good dher, come to racing and you will be shown up. Bluffing XC is far harder, if your slow up hill however much you spend your still going to be slow up hill.

But the Big Dog course is similar to the vast majority of XC courses, in fact it's significantly less technical than many!

the off putting bit about an XC race at the moment is riding around boring courses while getting beaten by a roadie

Which courses are like that these days though? I can't think of a single one this year. Sherwood isn't remotely 'technical' in that families could easily ride the course, but at the speeds people are riding the singletrack there's still a [i]degree[/i] of skill required.

I know what you mean about 'technical' and 'needing balls' being different - a jump or a drop is more the latter, people either do it or not, they're polarised and it doesn't really benefit the race all that much. A very fast piece of sinewy singletrack is more the former. But most courses are all about fast bits of trail where a skilled rider can still gain a lot of time over the less skilled.

oldgit, your idea of a race (the first one) sounds really good. The second one less so.

Right. I'm going to put on an XC race that suits the big bikes. I'll need some decent hills, gnarly singletrack and jumps at least. I'll need permission and access to race on this course. Ideally private land so I don't have to ask to many people to give up there day to marshall any paths etc. Then of course I'll have to get risk assesment and insurance to cover it. Will an ambulance be able to get to the course...helicopters are a bit costly. Sounds easy so far. that just leave me enough time to go round taking down the course and picking up gel pouches before it gets dark. The day after I'll pay for the venue, buy some more numbers because folk have gone home with theirs. Then I'll sort out the results, have a cuppa then do it all again next [s]week[/s] [b]year[/b].

More details on another [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/hit-the-north-feb-25th-2012 ]thread[/url].

The problem is that in a good head down XC position you can't see where you are going with a peak on your helmet.

😛

I know what you mean about 'technical' and 'needing balls' being different - a jump or a drop is more the latter, people either do it or not, they're polarised and it doesn't really benefit the race all that much.

What's wrong with mountain biking needing balls as well as skill and fitness? Just because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean it wouldn't 'benefit the race'.

Wrecker: Good points. My mountain biking enjoyment is really an extension of the several other things I do ( surf, windsurf, snowboard, mountain walk). Not driven by a constant competetive desire.
However time after time I come across folk who do seem that way inclined, but "xc racer" is not a tag they want. I still think to bring xc back it needs to re-invent itself.
I'm really going now, have only tried to look at this from an outsider's / potentially interested p.o.v !

So you want lees people partaking in MTBing so that the few can be more competitive?

Who said that?
How does adding another event that may be suitable for some riders dilute the interest in MTB'ing? I think you have missed the point (or mine certainly)

I'm not really sure where that comes from, but it still seems to be a common perception of XC races by the masses.

+1

i only started racing when i had no-one to ride with and my mates went to a race - I was very pleasantly surprised that it was actually a fun course.

What's wrong with mountain biking needing balls as well as skill and fitness? Just because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean it wouldn't 'benefit the race'.

I didn't say anything about what I like or don't, not really sure why you're getting so aggressive about it? Personally I derive a lot of pleasure from a technical course, or a particular section. If I can't do it/am losing time, it's an area for improvement, which is good to identify.

I just meant that a lot of people think XC races should be made more technical. By which they mean putting in a gap jump, or a 4ft drop. That doesn't really enhance the race. People either do it, or they don't. If they don't they may try, screw it up, walk down it and get in the way. Or... they make take a chicken run and lose a few seconds. If you have a 'technical' descent a lot more time can be lost.

It needs balls regardless, it'd be daft to suggest that it doesn't. Take a newbie/non cyclist around the Dalby WC course, there'll be sections they'll almost certainly not like the look of.

some points

How can you improve things? i guess money at the sharp end, make winning races pay, but you need to get people in at the bottom which means races close to where people live, and lots of them. Some will get the bug and progress others won't.

Our prizes are all via the generous sponsors
Racers £200 in [b]Leisure Lakes[/b] Vouchers/ race (£100,£50,£25, £25 prime)
[b][u]prize parity for the women[/u][/b]
Racing Diva's £200 in [b]Cooksons Cycles[/b] Vouchers (£100,£50,£25, £25 prime)

Weekend Warriors sponsored by [b]Big Bear Bikes[/b] (£80,£40,£20)

Series prizes of [b]Hope[/b] SPXC6 wheelsets, Brakesets, lights etc

chicken feed? (all on a £10 entry (series preentry))

If we were to return to that elitist attitude where people carry their bikes over bits because it's faster than riding, we'd see a massive decline in the sport IMO.

Hold a 'local' event that's technical and requires riders to be highly skilled and capable, and I'll guess you wont have many show. Different if you bigged it up and made it a one off, but we are talking sustainable racing.

Hold a 'classic' XC race that will suit everyone and you'll get people turning up week after week. Chuck in a ten minute kids race and you'll be able to justify taking along the other half and taking the time to race.

Very technical courses would still benefit a few people, just a different few to having no technical features, and would probably alienate more people, as I'll wager people are more likely to get disheartened and not come back because a course was too difficult compared to one which was too easy.

Cheap, regular, local races have to be the way forward. Beastway, Matchams years ago, that kind of thing.

We shouldnt be scared of promoting racing because we scare people off. People need to feel that they can join in but if its not for them then fine. Doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.

[b]oldgit and Sancho get in touch, we want to help other (not for profit) organisers to get off the ground (essentially because we want cheap races to enter, we seem to be busy on race day at our local series 😉 )[/b]

The only way to get something done is to do it yourself.

if you want a local race "scene" you need to do the work and put into the sport "ask not what your sport can do for you etc......" even if it's only cajoling someone to marshal at the event you are racing at

2011 series finale 2nd October riders and marshals wanted

www.brownbacksracing.co.uk

Lets rein this back in a bit. Comments from folk who don't want to race and see it as an objectionable side of the sport don't really help.

Just trying to make a point there when I said the farmers field. Most are pretty technical, in fact I've bottled a few 😳
And please remember XC racing is man against man first, then terrain.
The problem with bringing in technical stuff which we all love is that it becomes difficult to race and you tend to end up with just a fast preccession. Like racing F1 on a circuit only the width of one car.
We are also talking about 'sustainable' racing i.e week in week out. so you need venues that people can come to each week. Then think of the wear and tear that causes.
Think about the realities.

[i]And please remember XC racing is man against man first, then terrain.[/i]

Ah! maybe for you and I but not for the majority of people you would want to attract I suspect

Lets rein this back in a bit. Comments from folk who don't want to race and see it as an objectionable side of the sport don't really help.

Nobody has suggested that racing is objectionable, certainly not me.
I'd say it's optional and comments from those who do race demeaning all those who don't will always provoke a response.

£10!
In all seriousness I want to offer easy access midweek racing for like minded folk, experienced and newbies alike.
I have a pretty okay course. The simple stuff is hacking ground, there's a good section of dense woodland singletrack, a fast gravel service road and part of it runs over a tank driving area. Weather would have a massive influence on the race. I just need to check to see if I can keep drainage ditches and fallen trees in.
That for a fiver.
Good parking, gym with cafe on site. In fact you'll get cheap membership so could have a swim or sauna or whatever afterwards.
Race numbers, but places for only the top 3 or 10. If I can sort full timings for everyone I will.
Prize money would be a % of the days takings.
Mobile bike mechanic with spares on site.

The idea is it would just give people a chance to have a blast. Then if they like it they can try other series like FNSS and the Summit Series. Then hopefully they'll travel to the Gorricks and Thetfords races

Ah! maybe for you and I but not for the majority of people you would want to attract I suspect

I dunno, people do feel a sense of achievement when they beat the bloke who always beats them, or they get the top half or whatever. In the shakedown after a race more people talk about having been top 10/20/half/not last than having cleaned the whole course. People are realistic, and many are happy to race for 39th in Fun.

what Im hoping to achieve is a course that incorporates fire roads tech rooty woods, rock sections and some fast flowing singletrack.

my plan was for multiple line choices based on skill level
the more skilled rider obviously getting an advantage both up and down, and for riders wanting to carry their bikes through technical sections there would be marshalls on hand to give you a ten second stop - go penalty for being a pussy.

Personally I think it will be great. Like I said I have the private land with all the above so sustainability is not an issue, just need to get organising.
different weeks will see variations of the course and could include less technical events for pure xc. or cross.

The willy waving thing gets to me sometimes.
It appears to me that blasting down a hill as fast as poss is greeted with acclaim and respect (quite rightly). But then someone like myself (who's not right clever on the techy downhill stuff) that likes the physical challenge and hammers up a hill or hits a long flattish swoopy section as fast as poss. gets labelled as a willy waver?

I'm also from a running background having run competitively for a 'club' way back. The whole ethos of running clubs is totally different from mtb clubs, where the majority do it for 'fun' as opposed to viewing it as a 'sport'. I'm quite happy to enjoy both sides nowadays, riding with a group taking lots of time riding not very far, playing about on interesting trails etc. But if I'm honest I get more enjoyment still when I'm pushing myself really hard on challenging (physically) terrain.
I suppose I try and wave my willy in private now, or with another consenting adult

what Im hoping to achieve is a course that incorporates fire roads tech rooty woods, rock sections and some fast flowing singletrack.

So an XC course?

for riders wanting to carry their bikes through technical sections there would be marshalls on hand to give you a ten second stop - go penalty for being a pussy.

Competent rider A attempts technical section, gets line wrong, stalls, gets off and walks. Then what? Furthermore, competent rider B behind sees floundering rider A on the 'a line' and takes the now faster chicken run. Is he stopped for 10 seconds? Should he just stop on the trail and wait for the obstacle to be clear?

Serious practicality issues to implement, better to just make the chicken run slower.

problem is that running a technical section is often the fastest option up a hill and sometimes down, and I dont want that to happen so need to sort a way of stopping this.

looks like a [url= http://fnssmtb.wordpress.com/ ]muddy field[/url] to me

Going a bit OT:
I think the future of "XC" may be in long weekend/stage races: XC, XC time-trial, enduro, light DH kind of thing- all on one bike.

It would require the pro organisers to do it.

The problem [b]I[/b] have with XC is a lack of commitment on the day: I have had an XC race 10 miles up the road and not gone 'cos it's raining/boring course/not feeling fit.

Look at the turnout that enduro-marathons can get with the right promotion.

Wants to be something that people would put in their diary, pre-enter for and need some form of training commitment.
Interesting riding, a challenge, competitive, social and would suit the 5" masses!

(Nice one Brownbacks- too far away for me though)

Go for it sancho.

What's technical is hard to establish. I consider myself technically inept, but that's my age - no BMX or mountainbike whilst growing up.
That said I've been out with folk who have reluctantly ridden on my patch because it's a bit lame only to find them walking behind me. So we might be under estimating XC riders a bit. I'll tend to do things in races that I'd never do in real life?
Which begs the question, if courses were to be even more technical who would 'win' in the long run? I ask because it seems folk want technical stuff to slow down the whippets. There's almost an admission that technical riders might not be as fit and fast as the common perception of the XC racer is. So...would the technical riders work on fitness and would the classic racer become more skilled.
I'll stick my neck out, I think the fitter rider would find it easier to learn skills, or could find them quicker than his counterpart could match his fitness.

Cuppa anyone 😀

I didn't say anything about what I like or don't, not really sure why you're getting so aggressive about it? Personally I derive a lot of pleasure from a technical course, or a particular section. If I can't do it/am losing time, it's an area for improvement, which is good to identify.

I wasn't being aggressive at all.

I notice there is a gap jump in the olympics course - with a longer chicken run, seems perfectly sensible to me. If people were to get off their bike and run across the gap (not sure if this would save time anyway), to me that would seem lame and a little bit like cheating.

Lets rein this back in a bit. Comments from folk who don't want to race and see it as an objectionable side of the sport don't really help.

Not sure if you're referring to me - I am interested in racing and have taken part in the gravity enduro events before (so not 'proper' racing). I'm never likely to be fit enough to compete in an XC race, but probably would do if I thought it would be fun. The attitude of some posters in here makes me think that it probably wouldn't be much fun.

problem is that running a technical section is often the fastest option up a hill and sometimes down, and I dont want that to happen so need to sort a way of stopping this.

I can see why you'd want to, but the problem is people trying and failing, and whether you penalise them, which will cause more problems than just having a chicken run that allows people to take a few seconds penalty in exchange for the easier line.

At the Dalby WC some of the top women didn't do Worry Gill (including the winner IIRC) - just decided the 3 second penalty was better than the potential of mashing your face up.

In the Elite mens NPS race a very well known enduro rider of these parts didn't ride it either on at least one lap. Not a case of can't, he's a far better rider than me, and I did it, it's a very difficult balance to strike. Be interested to see how a penalty system worked.

Rock sections that are technically challenging to ride up and very steep with drops on the way down, rooty wood sections on steep descents that are difficult to ride with drops and gap jumps.
But always with an easy option.
Ive been riding a lot of motorbike enduros and the line options are an excellent way of gaining an advantage for the skilled rider and Id like to replicate that.
Sorry didnt give a full description on the last post.

I notice there is a gap jump in the olympics course - with a longer chicken run, seems perfectly sensible to me. If people were to get off their bike and run across the gap (not sure if this would save time anyway), to me that would seem lame and a little bit like cheating.

Agreed, and that's the advantage of a well designed course I guess. Other bits I can think of with a chicken lines from courses this year do work in the same vain:

- Worry Gill and Medusa's Drop at Dalby both have chicken lines which are far easier and cost 5 or so seconds (assuming a clear run at the 'a line')
- The 2 bombholes at Wasing both slow you significantly, and set you up on the wrong line at the bottom

There is a chicken line on one of the drops at Pippingford that doesn't really work IMO, 2 drops separated by a bank one climbs at a slight angle and it is (in the wet at least) very difficult to clean, whilst the chicken run isn't really shorter. So you may as well take the chicken run, and be guaranteed a clean run, rather than try the drop, maybe succeed and gain nothing, or get it wrong and lose time.

Like I say, it's a balance, the chicken run needs to be faster than walking the main section, but slower than a good run at the main section.

I might be grum, I've not looked back. TBH a traditional XC is fun, unless it's just me. What gets people hooked is getting drawn into the out and out racing regardless of fitness.
Tearing off the blocks alongside 100 other guys all racing for that ever narrowing line seems to bring something out of you that you can never find on any other day riding.
This is why I'm cautious about over technical courses. To me a race is focusing on getting past the bloke in front. So I want the course to be 'tricky' but not so that it requires more commitment than chasing the rider ahead.
If you are one of the folks who want to change the face of XC racing without ever trying it then yes it was at you.

and as far as Ive ever seen, the XC whippets are usually the most skilled riders too. I remember doing gisburn on the 575 with Scott Thwaites he did two laps to my one on his Carbon Lapierre hardtail and rinsed me on the descents too.

£10 a race cheap enough?

Spot on. Move the whole thing considerably further south and I'm in 🙂

As far as the comments from folk who don't want to race goes: The reason I said I don't particularly want to race is because apart from MM this year, which I trained bloody hard for, just to be able to ride it, i've never raced an mtb in my life.I'm 51 years old and not about to start now. I'm fit, not very fast on a bike, but getting much faster all the time. I've had mountain bikes since 1987 and until last year maybe ridden averagely once a month in any anger. I have ridden two or theree times a week for almost a year now and intend to ciontinue in that vein until I simply can't. The group I ride with often are aged from 22 to 40 without me and have an average age of 28.
Some of these guys would make good committed competetive riders, but see nothing to attract them to XC. I would also gladly give time to marshall or help out even if not racing.It's all mountain biking to me.
So. If xc wants a place in British MTB then either it bimbles on as it is or it gains riders, supporters, sponsors, organisers. Otherwise it will spiral inwards and downwards.
Please, take well intentioned, constructive criticism and observation on the chin.
I'm not bashing XC and haven't really seen anyone else on here doing that either.

I'm off for a wee.

Completely agree with Oldgit here - accessible grass roots racing is missing from much of the UK.

I can do a CX race or a TT without having to travel more than a few miles or pay more than a tenner, yet I'd have to spend half the day driving from Bristol to Surrey to do an XC race. In parts of the country where local races are put on, they seem to be well supported - Beastway etc.

Technical courses would be nice from an image point of view, but they aren't that important in an event where 90% of the field are going to be too knackered to see straight by the end of the first lap. When I finish a local CX race, my first thought isn't "wow, that course was easy".

If you want to put on a local XC race then in reality it's no harder than organising an event in any other disciplines. But it just doesn't enter most people's heads to do something because we are continually told that "XC racing is dead". When I started MTBing I didn't really care, now having experienced and enjoyed a bit of racing in other disciplines I'm starting to think we're missing a trick.

That for a fiver

we looked at time penalties but essentially they are impossible to enforce well, put to much on the marshal (who might be a friend of a racer) good course design is the answer

hoopdriver, we have regulars who live >100 miles away

I ask because it seems folk want technical stuff to slow down the whippets.

a bit of racing across a field from our series
http://www.youtube.com/user/BrownbacksRacing#p/u/30/qPLrdCAgCRc

and to show we are family friendly "c'mon Dad!"
http://www.youtube.com/user/BrownbacksRacing#p/u/21/m4tbFIlKlk4

in our experience the "whippets" are more than competant downhill/ on the technical bits. Just design a good course, see what happens and then adjust for the next one. Don't pigeonhole people people by their bikes or clothes.

If you want to put on a local XC race then in reality it's no harder than organising an event in any other disciplines.

having done it, yes it is, getting people to come forward to help is hard, the ones that do often don't race themselves and are some of life's stars, road, TT, CX use the club structure to get assistance to well established events which often take place over a shorter length of time

When I started MTBing I didn't really care, now having experienced and enjoyed a bit of racing in other disciplines I'm starting to think we're missing a trick

Some of these guys would make good committed competetive riders, but see nothing to attract them to XC

Are they not attracted by riding new places, without having to think, knowing that you've got a couple of hours of great riding, not worrying about walkers/stiles/gates etc (by and large!). That's a big part of riding for me - riding in places I otherwise wouldn't, with likeminded others.

and if it's so easy, do it yourself rather than bemoaning the lack of races, [b]who do you think is going to do it if you don't?[/b]

Brownbacks, that wasn't another "someone else should do it" comment. Having sounded a few people out about running a few local races in Bristol it sounds like there is heaps of enthusiasm from local clubs, potential sponsors, local BC rep et el. It hasn't quite come together yet (mainly because the local MTB trails have spent quite a lot of the summer closed while they receive a full facelift) but I'm sure it will soon.

You may have a point about road clubs having more of a racing culture, but I don't think that's insurmountable.

just had a thought
If you cant ride a technical section then youre sent back to either try again or do the chicken run.

Its a bit like in motorbike enduros where riders cant get up a muddy hill, its brilliant for the crowds as riders keep battling up the hill.

I just think it might work out as a bit of a fun spot for spectators but a key point in a race where skill can save a few seconds in a lap and thus prove the difference between a fit rider and a skilled fit rider.

It'd be worth a try, but my analogy of the first rider cocking it up and thus causing problems for all the following riders still stands. And if they come off halfway down are they going to have to walk back up the singletrack?

Not trying to put you off, just think it would be near impossible to implement!

yeah, Im just mulling ideas over at the moment, maybe save the retry rule for the uphill sections.

If after all someone crashes going down then first aid might be a higher priority

It sounds to me as if you are thinking of increasingly complicated ways of penalising a mythical group of fit but incompetent riders.

If you look at the front of an NPS you'll see that they can all ride anyway.

Yeah it's in the middle, around me, where it goes terribly wrong 🙂