[Closed] BKB on holmbury trail building

The mechanic in Nirvana is one of the best in the country, Rowan is a top lad! Don't know Simon that well but always seemed alright when I've spoken to him.
Must get back for a visit would be good to see how the trails have changed in the last 10 years from when I lived down that way.

Maybe they were the guys I bumped into a week ago - I said hello - and got completely blanked - came across them again - blanked again. Whereas a couple of young lads in full stormtrooper + 8" travel bikes were totally the opposite - chatty and asking me how the suspension worked on my bike - I explained it didn't have any - they looked bemused and commented it must be a really old bike LOL.

^ ^ 😆

Is this going to come back round to a 'roadies/XC riders/storm troopers are miserable, they never say hello' discussion?!

Aren't there multiple rides that go out? There always used to be a jumpy one on Saturday and a normal XC one, the XC one was certainly infamous for being of the 'if you're not quick enough you make your own way home' attitude! I'd be interested to go out with them, but it's just the wrong end of the hills for me.

Totally agree with many of these comments. Ride anything fast and it will challenge even the best riders. I love that whole area - Leith, Pitch, Peaslake, Holmbury etc. Still think it's great that these sanctioned trails exist. It's a 25 min drive from my place, so is perfect. I can even get there pretty much all off road if I want to. For me I like riding with a handful of mates wheel to wheel, having tea and cakes at Peaslake or the tower and chatting with other riders and finding new routes that I haven't done before. This is why I ride and every time I do I feel lucky all this is virtually on my doorstep. To lose any aspect of the above would be a massive shame. There will always be the minority who think they own the place, but they are the minority, so let's keep it in context. As for the guys at Nirvana, I've not ridden with them, but they sorted out my bike this week within 24 hours when nobody else could, and they clearly know there stuff. Restored my faith in bike shops - helpful, quick, great service, great attitude and a top mechanic. Thanks to these guys I will be riding tomorrow and that means a lot to me.

anyway getting back to the original crux of the thread, there was a right knobber (MTB!!) on Ranmore on Sunday who thought it might be great to put a random log at the end of Abbazabba, which was promptly removed as being completely pointless. A heated discussion enthused "too technical is it" WTF - mong just wrong! I'll give you technical you spacca..

"Return Of The Jedi"? I've always known it as "I Should Coco"! Namingly, conceptually partnered with "In It For The Money" from the car park further up the hill...

Anyway, returning, as Sui says, to the crux - as a "Friend of Hurtwood Control", I recommend that if you're in the hills and you come across any similar knerb-heds ruining the trails, get on the mobile and ring ranger Mark on: 07920 705 070 or at the office on: 01483 267267.

I always carry some paper and a pen to note down any registration numbers or other identifiers to pass on to interested parties. 😉

PS: I tried joining in on one of Grumpy Simon's "social" rides once - after dragging off the back for ten minutes, I gave up. He attracts properly fit people - don't apply if, like me, you favour going first gear up everything... 😯

Good idea to pass around the ranger's number. If he knows people are on his side and on the lookout, this will be a great help.

So good, you posted it twice!

[i]there was a right knobber (MTB!!) on Ranmore on Sunday who thought it might be great to put a random log at the end of Abbazabba, which was promptly removed as being completely pointless[/i]

Whilst I'm totally against people altering trails like BKB and Yoghurt pots, I think its a much greyer area when you get to more unofficial trails like Abba Zabba. Obviously don't know the specifics of what they did but whats pointless to you is not necessarily pointless to someone else. As far as I'm aware nobody owns these trails and they end up evolving...there's quite a few more jumpy bits around Abba Zabba popping up.

Hmmm, I don't think that's on, suddenly altering a trail in a potentially dangerous way!

With my limited skill I can ride Abba Zabba, but frankly if I came across a random log at the end of it I suspect it would all end rather badly! As it would on most trails frankly!

nuke - Member
there was a right knobber (MTB!!) on Ranmore on Sunday who thought it might be great to put a random log at the end of Abbazabba, which was promptly removed as being completely pointless

Whilst I'm totally against people altering trails like BKB and Yoghurt pots, I think its a much greyer area when you get to more unofficial trails like Abba Zabba. Obviously don't know the specifics of what they did but whats pointless to you is not necessarily pointless to someone else. As far as I'm aware nobody owns these trails and they end up evolving...there's quite a few more jumpy bits around Abba Zabba popping up.

specifics is quite easy

it's right at the end before you do the 30 meters or so climbing. the bit where people normally stop to wait for everyone. just at the bottom of the runout a log was put across. - now why oh why would putting a random log across the runout of this bit be a good idea - it's something you expect the red sock brigade to do!

i'm all for evolution of trails, but planting random obstacles that play no part in a challenge, especially when it's used at night and people are used to razzing through, it's plain daft. Lets put it this way, it's just like putting a log across bosanova as a "challenge" - you wouldn't do it..

How big was this log? IIRC there's been a log across the trail roughly where you describe for a while now 😕

My word. Haven't been over there for 6 weeks as I had a fracture in my hand. Rode BKB today - its like a ****ing motorway! Can't even see where the original trail was.

If you can't stick to a trail without cutting corners everywhere, don't bother riding it.

won't hear a word said against Nirvana cycles (not that anyone here seems to be saying any). They've really helped me out over the years, always at short notice, and their rides are class! I don't know of any other shop quite like it. When my bike finally dies, I'll be replacing it with something from Nirvana, just because I've been going there for years and never really laying down serious cash and it's time I did.

I'm bemused by DHrs sessioning BKB, and the idea of building sad little 6 inch jumps just before the wicked berms is risible. I'm now all about XC, but I've ridden lots of DH and you need a certain type of topography for big MX-type jumps/drops. Holmbury just isn't it. It's got a different (and in my view way more compelling) appeal - smooth California type singletrack.

It's almost like they're trying to prove they're more hardcore than anyone else at Holmbury, the irony being, if they were truly hardcore, they'd be on the 30 foot gap at Woburn, and not anywhere near the North Downs in the first place.

You get the same thing skiing. Often it's actually more fun to rip down the middle of the piste right on the edge kicking up cloud of roost, than to go off piste, but you see kids trying to go off piste just for the sake of it even where it's crap and miserable. If they were real powderheads they'd be at La Grave, not...Meribel! It's a result of marketing I think.

Rode Pitch, Holmbury etc today, and whilst brilliant fun, it was quite depressing how many of the trails have suffered straight lining. Part of the problem is people insist on riding stuff like Xmas Pudding all year round, and then bypass the muddy puddles which when dry create the character of the trail but instead straitline them. T1 is a case in point. Given the number of riders now regularly turning up I guess there's nothing that can be done but depressing nonetheless.

I was also up there today and couldn't believe how busy it was everywhere! There must've been near on 100 riders in Peaslake, crazy! It's no surprise the trails get trashed frankly.

Lots of damage up there for sure, but 100 riders?? I was there around 8 am and there were three of us. Trails change and evolve but that's to be expected, I had a brilliant ride but the dog is worse for wear..

>I was there around[b] 8 am[/b] and there were three of us

Like durrrrr....

Rode Pitch, Holmbury etc today, and whilst brilliant fun, it was quite depressing how many of the trails have suffered straight lining. Part of the problem is people insist on riding stuff like Xmas Pudding all year round, and then bypass the muddy puddles which when dry create the character of the trail but instead straitline them.

That is the case on a lot of the trails, but with the likes of BKB a lot is also down to people riding it on big rigs and as one LBS owner in the area with DH racing experience says they simply haven't learned to take corners on such bike bikes, so they straightline.

Yeah I reckon getting on for 100 riders, including a number sitting around sunbathing without shirts on! That was about 1 o'clock, was much quieter earlier on, although we passed a group of more than 20 at the bottom of BKB!

Saturday was rammed around there. Other than the bit between Holmbury and Leith, it was constant traffic.

[i]There must've been near on 100 riders in Peaslake, crazy![/i]

I've got tomorrow off and intend to spend as much as it as possible on the Surrey Hills...bet I don't see a soul (with the possible exception of njee20 😉 )

Still even when I am up there on a weekend, Surrey Hills is large enough area that even when there are large numbers at Peaslake/Leith Hill tower/etc they soon thin out. I was out yesterday around trails like Windy Willows and I didn't see a soul.

I don't really mind how many people are sunbathing in Peaslake, better that than out on the trails!

We caught a few people up on some of the trails, but otherwise didn't have too much traffic, there's enough riding up there to lose people after all!

I've got tomorrow off and intend to spend as much as it as possible on the Surrey Hills...bet I don't see a soul

I have tomorrow and Tuesday off 😀

So well worth getting up early for a clear run then it seems.

I was out round Holmbury Hill way on Saturday afternoon and to be honest I didn't think it was that busy.

Saw a few large groups, but got a clear run on almost all of the trails. A fair number of people were stopped at Peaslake, but there was still room to sit down.

I was a bit surprised after hearing all the fuss on here, I must say.

Mee too I was out from 7.30 odd until about 11.30 and didn't get held up anywhere other than BKB by a bloke on a unicycle.

On reflection that was odd.

Ladies legs was just fantastic the bit through the pine wood was just surreal.

Saturday will always be quieter than Sunday. Yesterday there was a queue to go down Barry's. I didn't go that way myself.

As for massive crowds in Peaslake - if you do pitch up there and it is getting rammed then please consider hanging out somewhere else rather than adding to the chaos - the locals don't much appreciate it when things get quite as busy as that!

I queued for the first time ever at the top of Bazza yesterday. I counted a dozen riders! Also, a couple of riders walking back up the trail to get to the trail head... Slightly disturbing phenomenon.

First time on the new build though and I have to say that it's really exciting - big, swoopy berms and fast singletrack cutting back and forth across the escarpment.

To the riders who pulled up when I was at the side of the track letting really fast riders go through - I'm still not "Andy"!! 😉

Yep as I said there were no problems on the trails really, just at Peaslake, I didn't stop, just marvelled at the sheer number of people bringing the village into total chaos!

Suits me if people would rather drink tea and eat cake than ride the trails though!

By the way, I didn't see any modifications to BKB, but did see a bloke stack it quite hard near the bottom of the bermy bit.

Hope you're okay if you reading this.

PS: Oh, and I realised that, after talking to the riders at the top, they were all new to the area - they didn't know what I meant by the "new build" as I explained what the trail used to be like, and why the the new trail had to be built...

We are now into the new tourist era. Good thing? Bad thing? Dunno at the mo'.

Just added on the Hurtwood website:

"Just to add a couple of points:
1) any continuing vandalism of this sort anywhere on the Hurtwood will put at risk the strategy currently being pursued by the Friends of the Hurtwood and supported by the Landowner, that allows mountain bikers to enjoy this great environment. The investment in BKB; by the Surrey Hills AONB, the bikers and your Charity through the Ranger was not inconsiderable, so it is saddening to find that some people can be so thoughtless
2) central to our management of biking is the active support of the biking community, so please would all biker Friends continue to be vigilant and report any suspicious activity around any of the trails, or indeed anywhere on the Hurtwood, to the Ranger who has authorisation to take whatever action is approriate. This especially includes any short cutting onto the lower (new) end of BKB and the creation of any parallel or subsidiary trails
Finally my thanks to those bikers who reacted to this situation which allowed the Ranger to take immediate action to restore the trail to its original condition."

Got to be a good thing for the local area surely. I know that the tea shop is doing well!

I really like the fact that more people are into bikes now, makes me look slightly less mad.

Also one thing I heard down at the teashop, a guy had taken on that little drop at the top of BKB for the first time, he was dead chuffed and I thought good on you, I'd hate for MTB to get cliquey based on peoples skill levels and all that, I've always liked the fact that MTB is inclusive.

I do think some of the stormtroopers can come over as a bit up themselves TBH but that is most likey my perception I expect.

nuke - Member
How big was this log? IIRC there's been a log across the trail roughly where you describe for a while now

i know the log you mean, but just before that! you ride down a small 'mound' -(effectively the end of Abbazabba) for a better description - it was literally at the bottom of this on the runout! We saw the bloke put it there so we removed it and then had an argument about it.

BKB now has worldwide appeal. most of the voices i heard 'whoop de whooping" and shouting "high-five!" or "that was rad!" in and around peaselake had a distinctive south african or antipodean twang.

Yeah two guys I play football with in London have recently started MTB one Australian one South African. The Australian guy often goes to north downs, swinley and south wales with his mates.

However it was quite funny the South African guy saying he was heading off to the Long Mynd on the weekend.

Oi! you lot, looks like I've received a flaming in my abscence 😉 No worries we're all entitled to our opinions - I'm not feeling the heat too much, I'm actually chuckling here. After being informed on yesterdays night ride that I've been flamed, I think all is reasonably good humoured.

Cheers Si and Rob!

I guess I'm a little sensitive to this type of 'trail building' as we're facing a CTC Ian Warby take over of our local forest at Tilgate, they are planning on charging £6 per day to ride it, and WE have to provide the trails etc etc it goes on. There is a meeting with the officials at the K2 leisure centre 29th April 7.30 if anyones interested.

I rode Abbazabba on Sunday too, I can't recall any logs in the way, not to say that there wasn't - I didn't notice anything unusual. Did 'blind terror ' ending though, so could have been on the other section s'pose.

As to the Nirvana comments - sounds about right :wink:,although anyone going out expecting a hard xc ride on the Sunday will be dissapointed, it really isn't that - more of a cruise to the technical trails. It must vary, and I am a intermittent regular.

[waves to lurking Chuffnuts]
🙂

Whereabouts in tilgate? Where the jumps and 'downhill' track were/are (haven't been down there for at least a year) in the bottom corner?

Oi! you lot, looks like I've received a flaming in my abscence No worries we're all entitled to our opinions

Aye, and having been up there Sunday and yesterday, in my opinion it's ripe for a road bike at the moment 🙂

Doesn't mean I'm gonna be on anything other than my Top Fuel as it would be bloody miserable, could definitely be done though!

Its a bit odd describing things as Ian and the CTC "taking over" - they aren't invading top trail spots and imposing their own law! They are called in as experienced consultants - if anyone thinks they know better they are free to present themselves in the same way and compete for the work.

glenp - really, well you may not know the history regarding Tilgate, they are taking over a public access area, and charging for it's use, and we don't seem to have a choice. Details will be thrashed out at the meeting.
I wish we had a choice as to whether or not to have their £68 per year, per cyclist charge, or £6 per day permit to ride, proposals for monitoring the trails Tilgate. They will not provide any trails, just inspection and CTC membership.

A conversation with Ian, revealed that they are looking to roll this out across other privately owned ride areas too. You never know, it could be coming to an area near you, some point.

There are other areas going through this, that were free to ride up until now, Rogate is one that I recall, and there was a thread on here regarding that recently.

I appreciate all that, woodsman - what I meant was you were making it sound like it was all CTC's doing! Who owns the land?

some people just need to fu(k off and stop messing around with these play area's. don't get me wrong some places can benefit greatly but others, no! It's down to nothing more than insurance and 'elf and safety.. The sooner people take responibility for their own actions the better, that we we can be happy to build trails in the middle of nowhere and not worry about the consequences. I mean, who the f''k uses some random hill in the woods except a biker to build a jump or two on.. PARENTS you can all do one as well - ooh my little darling hurt himself on your land - im suing - give it a rest, if your little darling hurts himself it's his/her own bl00dy fault. However landowners - knowingly stick obstacles up on frequently used trails and you should be carted off to court. rant rant rant... too much poncy fannying around lately..

No worries glen, glad you can see where I'm coming from a bit more now. The land at Tilgate is a mix of Crawley and Mid Sussex councils with the bulk middle part Forestry Commission.

I had a candid hour long telephone conversation with Ian, and this is a scheme in it's infancy that the CTC are keen to roll out across other areas, Forestry at the start, then privately owned areas where trail building is prolific, and deamed a problem/risk by the land owners. Basically, the fees are compulsory CTC membership with added top up fees, to make the £6 per day permit, or £68 annual. It's to relieve the land owners, public or private, of any responsibility and the third part risks, as the CTC will take the resposibility, and waymark/grade and inspect the trails. They will not provide any actual trails/materials or labour other than inspection. I can see the benefits for and against, although I probably don't need to state my view. 🙂

Will there actually be someone there to actually levy this though? Only doggers and grans at Tilgate from what I have seen from the odd lunchtime walk around there (i work in Colgate)

Apparently - 'peer pressure' to quote Mr Warby. Someone will probably take on the warden role from the club that is to be formed, to coincide with the CTC take over. I think that is to be formalised at the meeting I mentioned.

I worry that sooner or later it will be MTB's in sanctioned places only with significant fees to attend. Can't have us hareing round the countryside scaring the redsocks and running over puppies eh!

so will we eventually need a seperate permit for each area we ride in, or will one permit be for everything?

HH, I don't have that sort of info.

Can't have us hareing round the countryside scaring the redsocks and running over puppies eh!

The Hurtwood is special in so much as it is all privately owned. They could opt for a scheme like that - as far as I know they aren't considering it at the moment, but when the best known cooperative project on the Hurtwood gets vandalised by people who think that someone else's land should be hacked about to suit only them then a situation is being created where it may become more likely.

Even with permit schemes I'm pretty sure you would still have a right to use the existing bridleways.

It's a worry though Glen. Used to be that when there were fewer people out on MTB's there seemed to be less complaints (obviously) now though as the sport grows it is in danger of becoming a victim of it's own success.

The Hurtwood is a great spot for sure but increasingly we have to view it as more like a trail centre than not with all the associated baggage that carries.

Unsanctioned building is annoying and thoughtless but I maintain it's the lack of courtesy and thoughtfulness especially to local people with kids and dogs etc that causes the real harm to the image of MTB.

can you really stop people who are intent on riding trails from doing so - private land or not..???? no serious. Hurtwood are great, they came to realise that biking was here to stay so joined in and said lets make it work together. Other "land owners (council FC)" are knobs who want money for the privilage. Hurtwood know there's miles upon miles of unsanctioned stuff, but it remains realitvely hidden so is no massive concern. Tilgate, Rogate, even the place that's not really there in Kent would never normally be an issue accept for HSE. It's almost like trying to control fell running!

can you really stop people who are intent on riding trails from doing so

You can confiscate their bikes, that's quite a good disincentive! Is it not attitude like that that causes the problems in the first place?

Its all very well thinking that you would never sue the land owner, but if you do find yourself with serious life-long injury and a family to support your attitude would soon shift from "sueing" to "claiming on their insurance", because you'd have very little choice.

Totally agree about the behavior thing jools. Attitude is everything and regular folk assume a certain attitude exists when they see (for example) body armour and brash clothes and super massive dh bike. I have enough trouble persuading people that I have known all my life that I ride in a discreet and polite manner, and I've lived here 45 years, am grey-haired and dress pretty discreetly. If I have trouble convincing them what chance does anyone with a more "different" image have?

You can confiscate their bikes, that's quite a good disincentive! Is it not attitude like that that causes the problems in the first place?

Pretty certain you can't! The police can, but that'd be about it. The land owner or their agent could ask you to leave and you'd be obliged to do so by the quickest route, but other than that they wouldn't be able to 'do' anything.

Certainly if they took your bike that'd be robbery, which is a pretty serious crime (not the same as theft). If you put up a struggle (as would be your right as they'd be acting illegally) then you can add assault to that as well.

Obviously the above would in all likelyhood never happen, but lets not spread false rumours eh?

It's almost like trying to control fell running!

Fell running doesn't usually envolve digging into the ground and forming structures on/out of it.

Putting an alternative view on it. How would you feel about someone turning up and building jumps or drops in your garden? Or deciding to park on your drive because you're close to where they want to be?

Seems to be a lot of disrespect for people's property being expressed.

Inherently being a mountain biker in the surrey hills we are all disrespecting property everytime we ride (unless you only use Bridleways?) 90% of trails are illegal - its just a fact of life.

90% of trails are illegal.

Why? 90% of trails might not be bridleways but they're not illegal. They're private property, yes, but if the owner is happy to allow you to ride on them within certain requirements - like don't dig fresh ones, don't build jumps, don't scare the horses - then what law is being broken?

Or to illustrate by hyperbole. If my friend brings his bike around my house and rides it in my garden, with my permission, following my rules (don't run over the cat, stay off the vegetable patch, don't swear at the wife) what law is he breaking?

But is the owner happy - probably not it most cases...ie stuff on redlands, winterfold, leith, ranmore etc goes through stages of being blocked off
and riding footpaths is illegal - much of the best stuff is footpath, hence we ride footpaths alot.

I'm talking more specifically about areas under the Hurtwood Control here, so Winterfold / Redlands is possibly more as you say. I don't specifically know who the landowners of these areas are, or what their attitude is.

But within the Hurtwood, as long as you're following the rules / code of conduct then the landowner is to a greater or lesser extent OK with it. Any conflict is being caused by bad behaviour, by building new trails, or (as here) 'modifying' the existing trail network in a way that the landowner is not OK with

To the other point: [u]Riding footpaths is not illegal.[/u]

A footpath is an right of way for foot passengers over land. Whether the landowner likes it or not. If he is also happy for bikes to be ridden over those footpaths, it's his land, what law's being broken?

What, of course its illegal - otherwise why have a definition of a footpath! just like cycling on the pavement

OK - maybe a civil wrong.

"from Wikipedia
Right of ways and open access across land typically only extend to walking. So you don't have a right to cycle or ride a horse on a public footpath. However, it is not a criminal offence to do so, unless there is a traffic order or bylaw in place specifically. A land owner may pursue you for damages under trespass Law or obtain a court order Injunction banning you from riding on their land, if you persisted.

It is a civil wrong to ride a bicycle or a horse on a public footpath, and action could be taken by the landowner for trespass or nuisance by the user.[1]"

All I am trying to point out is much of what we do is basically selfish.

I wasn't only talking about the land.

theotherjon sums it up nicely. If you don't like the trails at Hurtwood then you have two options.

1. Don't ride there.
2. Join the group, put the work in and push for different trails. Although, accept that the owners maynot wish for your type of trails to be built on their land. In which case revert to 1.

Freeride Nick what the others are trying to say is the landowner in the hurtwood is happy for you to ride on his land this includes in this area footpaths so its not a civil offense in the hurtwood.

Footpaths are a ROW and are not the same as pavements.

And as a complete aside, I can do a very decent loop with absolutely no footpaths in it anyway, I wouldn't say that 'much of the best stuff' is footpaths. Perhaps more so on the North Downs, but not the Surrey Hills.

I know all this and think the Hurtwood do a good job - and have worked on trail days on BKB.

I was being more general of the whole area. You don't just ride on the Hurtwood do you.

PS the best ending to BKB is a footpath!