[Closed] BKB on holmbury trail building

Again, I somehow doubt that a European champion DH racer is out with a shovel digging some 18" jumps on an XC trail!

Be very happy to help, gt - sounds like you want to get the trail working for you, rather than having the trail work you over? You can always ring Richard - he'll be very open and fair with his advice, and is a nice approachable bloke too.

Mind you, sounds like you've got lots of experience anyway - you can probably make a big improvement by visualising what you want.

Visualisation will help but sounds like some coaching would be just the ticket.

Yep am a big fan of the idea. Have sent an email to all biked up as I couldn't find the phone number (probably didn't look hard enough).

There's quite a few other new trails appearing, mostly on Pitch. I'm not quite sure what I should and shouldn't be riding though. Some of the new trails get closed others don't, seems a bit indiscriminate to me. I've asked the ranger about what the criteria is for closing some trails but leaving others. I think it's more to do with how much grief he gets about it and how obvious it is, so building on BKB was dumb, to say the least!

There is sort of a deal regarding trails which is that anything classed as a 'legacy trail' can remain and anything new will be most likely put beyond use, especially if it contains anything with a jump or drop on it.

Most people who ride there regularly will know which are the legacy trails and which aren't. Which bits were you thinking of?

I don't know the name of it, but one is on Pitch where all the shore was built some years ago, there now seems to be a new ending that had a see saw in it which has been removed, but the trail remains. So is that ok to ride?

Yep I know the one you mean, it comes off of the side of the trail I think called 'Proper Bo'. It was put up last summer and taken down mostly because of the seesaw. The seesaw is still gone but the entrance has been opened up again. I will be honest and say that I've ridden it myself once or twice recently. Not sure if the ranger will allow it to stay open or not. He might given that there is no seesaw or jumps, but then again he might not. Either way it's not legacy and so you should expect it to be closed off. If you were being particularly virtuous you wouldn't ride it either but given my own infraction, I am not going to preach.

TBH the ranger is pretty OK as long as ladders and booters dont appear - I reckon that the trail in question would pretty much be considerd legacy. The main concern for the ranger is where trails might cross ROW or if a visual scar develops and is pointed out to him. So dont drag your brakes, don't scare other users and don't try and recreate the North Shore of Vancouver, ride with a smile, respect for other user groups and a friendly hello ready for walkers and it will all be good.

can't we all just club together and buy hurtwood? i've got some bike bits i could sell, that will raise 12 pounds to start with. anyone else? how much would we need?

there is a piece of land for sale round there, £250k for 66 acres

It was a new looking audi and a white escort van.
It was such a quick build, in a dramatic position.
Could it have been for a photoshoot?
The shonky jump certainly looks just like a Woburn jump.

there is a piece of land for sale round there, £250k for 66 acres

Well howdy, I own an oil company and shall buy/sit on this and restrict access until the day that there is a worldwide crisis and the council allows me to actively drill and develop the land 😉

Firstly I would like to make it clear that I do NOT condone any of the rogue building mentioned on this trail. But, I really think this is going to be difficult to control. By building and advertising on forums and magazines through articles, this 'wonder trail', many many people are flocking to the area to ride it. The traffic around the area leading to the trail, and the erosion is the worst I've ever seen it in the 12 or so years that I've been riding the area (BKB didn't exist in any form then).

Having those huge berms just followed by straights is going to attract other, non-sponsered by CTC (Ian Warby) type trail builders. There are adverts at the shelter (Peaselake) saying how great Mr Warby is for having involved himself in the making of the BKB - it is his paid job BTW.

It is fairly uninteresting for the experienced but still pleasurable, and is likely as said to attract the eye of the folk who may have built other stuff in the general area, is my guess. It is going to be very difficult to keep as it is, it is a great all levels trail, and I do enjoy it, but I only use it as a means to get across to the other side. Oh, and I haven't mentioned the cars parked at the top every time I ride past, people putting on armour - I find it embarassing to hang around too long!

You could say it is a victim of it's own success.

you could say it's a victim of retarded, selfish, lazy, mountain bikers who think they have to right to build wherever they want and not give a toss about anyone else.

Well it is near London. The place where you do tend to find selfish, wahey look at me tools in some bars etc etc. It figures that at somepoint they'll see a mountain bike mag next to the surfing mags at somepoint

I don't neccessarily disagree Woodsman but what is seemingly contradictory (not of your but just the situation in general) is that you don't get this kind of problem at the various trail centres littered around the UK.

I am not sure what is so different about the Surrey Hills or that particular stretch of trail.

geetee72, that's an interesting point that I hadn't considered up 'til now. For me if I travelled to a visitor centre which I rarely do, but non the less do on occasion. I would expect lots of long challenging trails, and that has been the case. I think BKB is getting a lot of publicity since the reworking, people travel as hora has said, perhaps from London, expecting to find a section of trail, shorter of course, but perhaps similar in technicality to say, end of Whites Level in Wales; where there is some line choice necessary, a few obstacles to contend with, options to hook off some rideable lips etc. Only, to find a bit of natural at the top, going into huge berms with quite frankly nothing after but surfaced straights.

As a local trail, surfaced to cope with erosion and resident complaints of noise (there is only house and that's beyond the ending)I think it works well enough, but to advertise it as something grand, which I'm afraid will happen if you involve the CTC and Mr Warby, people will be expect more than it is, which is why I think you are getting this intervention. All of the singletrack in the area, not just Holmbury and Pitch but also Leith has evolved and changed in my experience, never has a trail been created and it just stayed as it is.

I was riding the area Saturday, and we used BKB to connect with the other side. I had to stop a couple of times, I found myself riding behind a guy at one point, with full panniers on a road bike - I'm not sure he'd be able to do that at the trail centres you perhaps refer to geetee72.

Well it is near London. The place where you do tend to find selfish, wahey look at me tools in some bars etc etc.

But then you left.

It isn't a trail centre, or advertised as such! It is a facility to help the enjoyment of the countryside by bicycle.

BKB has had a press release, sure, but the press release described how the trail had been re-routed to be more sustainable, nothing else. It also credited the sources of the funding, contractors, volunteer effort and the cooperation and understanding of the land owners.

The fact that someone can ride down it on a road bike is a good thing, not bad. When we were working on Yogurt Pots last year I usually traveled there on my road bike, and I usually take it as a good yardstick if I can roll through any given section on it. That means that whoever comes along isn't going to get hurt. Kids, grannies, tandems, whatever. It doesn't mean you can't make it a lot more fun by adding speed (conditions permitting). I don't think Yogurt Pots is borinng or inadequate, but I can still roll it on 25mm road tyres.

I can't see how some people think that the very considerate and open land owners owe them a trail centre to their specification! They owe us nothing, and we are grateful for their cooperation. Anything done officially will always be inclusive, not exclusive - you're selfish if you think otherwise, frankly.

To that end, I've often been tempted on a nice summers day to try BKB on my road bike, now it's got a bit cut up I reckon the small drop in at the top would be an issue!

But then you left.

I did but you picked up the baton nicely

I think BKB is getting a lot of publicity since the reworking, people travel as hora has said, perhaps from London, expecting to find a section of trail, shorter of course, but perhaps similar in technicality to say, end of Whites Level in Wales; where there is some line choice necessary, a few obstacles to contend with, options to hook off some rideable lips etc. Only, to find a bit of natural at the top, going into huge berms with quite frankly nothing after but surfaced straights.

Erm, people have always travelled from London and as far as I know it was never advertised as what your describing, so the idea of finding a whites level style ride would be in their minds. But a very good "veiled critique" of the trail there.

I did but you picked up the baton nicely

Not if it's been in your hands.

You didnt say that in the bushes last time

Not defending the silly twerps who did this, but is it possible that they didn't get the press release and wrongly assumed the rest of the trail had been built by amateurs as well?

What most of us take as common knowledge might not be so obvious to people who don't read MTB fora or live locally.

Only wondering, could well be wrong.

Then in that case they need to ziptie some signs up?

I didn't know it was you. Stop using that gimp mask.

Your right cha****ng
The average rider around here probably has no idea what the Hurtwood is or does and thinks anything is fair game digging wise. I suspect 90% or more probably are not "friends of the hurtwood".

Ah, that is not a gimp mask. It is my face, I had a horrible accident as a child involving a bin liner and a carrier bag 😯

Sonor 🙂

glenp, there has always and is, a choice of trails in the area, where you can ride fire trails and some twisty stuff with a road bike if you so wish, it's all on a OS map. To turn an existing trail into that is surely going to be provocative, especially to the people who rode and possibly created it previously. That must also be selfish surely.

Exactly my point - it isn't a trail centre, and hence my comparison, to geetee72's point. But, the publicity (informal or formal) that this trail is receiving is far more than it warrants.

reckon the small drop in at the top would be an issue!

there are no drops on any official surrey hills trails, only gentle roll-ins

I've only been living in London and riding in Surrey for 8 years, so I guess it was pretty "busy" in some peoples' view when I started. But the idea that people are posting on here these days about maybe travelling down from Yorkshire to ride Holmbury Hill, and that there are a number of guided operators working the area really is bonkers.

It's a small patch of small and pretty hills with some surprisingly permissive land owners and some reasonably entertaining trails. But the massive increase in usage in the last few years is inevitably going to make things decidedly peculiar. 🙂

BD - balanced view!

Your right BD. Holmbury hill is affectively trashed. BKB, return of the Jedi, yogpots, telegraph etc all knacked. Even the newish off camber down to the village hall ruined by not taking the correct line. Hence people build new trails and will always continue to. The large groups of guided riders doesn't help things I agree, especially on a busy sunny weekend.

Luckily there are better trails elsewhere and stuff being built that is more challenging.

return of the Jedi

Which one is this?

I like the line down to the Village Hall. Not sure it's been ruined, just a choice of high left off camber or lower right on camber. It's still one of the more technical little runs epecially in the wet.

difficult to explain. but heading NNW from here along that marked footpath
[url] http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=509650&y=143910&z=115&sv=509650,143910&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=794&ax=509650&ay=143910&lm=0 [/url]

Rode it yesterday, did'nt see the gap jump but the stupid hump with the pit next to it was still there, it upset the high speed flow of the last few corners.

We may have a group with us, but the whole group will be riding nicely and to a "code". So I don't think we're contributing in an out of balance way to erosion or other pressures.

there are no drops on any official surrey hills trails, only gentle roll-ins

You know what I mean, it's not a drop off, you don't (have to) leave the ground, so a drop in/roll in seems like perfectly good terminology! Pedant.

Either way, it seems to cause people quite a bit of trouble, often surprised by folk gathering round the top of it!

freeridenick - I'm agreeing with your last post. I tend to avoid those trails where possible now, they were good some years back! There is still some good riding to be had, it's way off track so to speak, and I would be careful who I told in fear of the 'sanitisation police' getting wind of it, and implementing their 'road bike' strategy to it. I'm sure you know where it all is though.

woodsman, if you can ride a road bike down it, its a road in my book 🙄 😉

What a load of twaddle!

You could ride most of the stuff on the Surrey hills on a road bike, you could probably ride most of Afan on a road bike frankly, it would be zero fun, but I reckon you could do it. Wet roots and mud would be the worst bits, but if there was none of that I reckon it could be done.

it's way off track so to speak, and I would be careful who I told in fear of the 'sanitisation police' getting wind of it, and implementing their 'road bike' strategy to it. I'm sure you know where it all is though.

What a load of cods wallop. What you should say is after "I've ruined it by not building it properly, I'll just move on to another part of someone else's woods and do the same."

If it is new it won't get "sanitised", but it may get blocked off.

The long-standing network of legacy trails will be kept, provided the delicate status quo can be maintained.

I don't think Yogurt Pots is "sanitised" to the point of being no fun, but neither is it a liability. Ditto BKB, in its new form.

None of the trails are particularly demanding, let's be honest, where they become difficult is when ridden flat out. And that's what makes it a great place to ride irrespective of your skill level!

I've seen the word challenging a few times on this thread the marketeers have got some of us good and proper.

I like to have a little tear down the double headed dog or deliverance and the odd jump and stuff but for me the real fun is riding wheel to wheel with my mates down some flowy singletrack at high speed getting the odd little bit of air here and there, Barrys and most of the sanctioned trails give me that buzz every time.

I am always pleased with myself when I ride a proper steep roll in hanging off the back or drop off a few feet somewhere but I suppose deep down I'm just a XC jeyboy!

The great thing about BKB and many of the others is that anyone can ride them and they get more fun the faster you go, I think the builders have done a great job. Sanatised? I don't think so, over used, probably..

I know there are people who want the thrills of huge jumps, big drops and all the rest, sometimes I'm one of them and it's all available within 30 mins ride of BKB if you know where.

Cocking up one of the most used trails is just not on, end of. As for people treating it like a mini DH track - HA!

njee20, can i watch you ride cliff richard or john steep on a roadbike 😯

I like how Njee puts it. I've ridden quite a lot of DH over the last few years and to be honest the thing I enjoy now is riding easier trails flat out. Full on DH courses are hard work, mentally and physically and the most demanding ones might not be a whole lot of fun for most of us. Right now, given the demands of fatherhood and work I am glad to not have to think too much about my riding and just enjoy pinning the surrey hills without having to concentrate on not killing myself. Ride the trails super fast and they get challenging enough though; a tree is a tree is a tree no mater where it is and there are trees on the Surrey Hills you could easily hit at 20mph+.

I think we sometimes idealise the Surrey Hills a little too much. It's a different style of riding to pure DH tracks or purpose built trail centres. Personally I'd miss the loose, loamy nature of the turns around here, and having ridden everything there is in Wales apart from Brecfa, I'd say that while the runs on Surrey Hills are nothing like as long, they are every bit as challenging and everybit as enjoyable as the welsh trail centres. So when people say it's not technically challenging, I'd say, 'well what is, what are you comparing it to?' because frankly there's nothing at Afan, CYB, Llangdella etc that is any harder. Even Cwmcarn DH isn't technically challenging unless you ride it real fast.

njee20, can i watch you ride cliff richard or john steep on a roadbike

Reread what I said.

You could ride [b]most [/b]of the stuff on the Surrey hills on a road bike,

Of course there are jumps/drops that you can't, but BKB/Yoghurt Pots/Telegraph/Summer Lightning etc etc could all be done (if slowly) on a road bike in the right conditions. It would just be incredibly dull.

The only real barrier would be catching a puncture every five minutes, otherwise it could even be quite fast. I guess a cyclocross bike would be fine.

yes I know, only winding you up mate!

A cyclocross bike is indeed fine, I did try mine up there, just not as much fun as a proper MTB!

Much like in most situations really!

the old ending of BKB would be interesting on a roadbike. Let the brakes off and see if you could hold on!

I don't think the brakes would be that much help anyway!

It'd be worth a punt in the dry, the risk would be that the wheels would've got buried in the dust and you'd wash out rather rapidly!

I'm certainly not talking about 'built' trails, there is so much nice natural.

I'd doff my hat to anyone who could ride both parts of two head dog, or all the pies on a road bike - respect if you can.

As for the trails you mention njee20, I'm hardly surprised that you are so blinkered and opinionated, if that's your representation of the riding in the area.

Crikey, blinkered and opinionated!? Where's that come from!

I merely said that most of the most well known trails (if you prefer that caveat) are made difficult by riding them at speed rather than being particularly 'gnarly'.

Happy to meet up for a ride, perhaps we can both show each other some new bits. I'm out Sunday from Peaslake if you care to join?

I could well be up there on Sunday - I'll be with the Nirvana lot if I do make it. I'll look out for you, shouldn't be many on drop bars and skinny tyres.

Oh sh1t, my side just split with the hilarity.

goodbye

What are the Nirvana lot like? I've sort of spoken to a few of them on occassions and I've always got the impression they were a little clicky and not always the most friendly bunch. Am I being overly sensitive?

... and not always the most friendly bunch

If woodsman is anything to go by I think you might be right 😉

Mixed reports from the Nirvana lot, I've never really had a problem with them, and know some of the guys who ride with them regularly, but I've also heard reports of being who are a bit off the pace just being left behind. Which IMO isn't really on on a group ride. Simon can be a bit miserable some times too, but he's northern!

I'm sure Woodsman will now tell me I'm a moron, as I seem to have offended him (blows a kiss to woodsman).

While were on the subject of BKB can i just ask why the hell was the demo day routed down BKB, i assume thats what all the fluro green markers were for given they left the Peaslake carpark and went straight up the top of BKB & there was a sign for a demo day on that day.

Me and my mates rode it on the Saturday evening after the demo day had finished and we all commented that if was ALOT more eroded than the last time we rode it a few weeks before. There were skid marks all over the place including down the rooty roll in at the top and also at the entrance to the S bend before the large 2nd berm.

To me it was madness to send wave after wave of riders, most on bikes that they would never have ridden before and so were unfamiliar with the performance of down so an already well used trail that it in danger of becoming a victim of its own success.

Isn't there other trails that could have been used for this ?

Nirvana = generally miserable and clicky from what I have seen. Although to be fair Simon is fairly proactive on the trail building front

And he really really knows his way around!

bigsi, its already a victim of its own success - maybe better to now just accept that this is the main trail in the area used my demo days/teachin groups and keep them off other trails?. But really it needs top to bottom grading like the new section to cope with the traffic

but he's northern!

He's from a place about three miles up the road from where I grew up so he can't be all that bad!
I've spoken to him a few times and he strikes me a being someone who knows his own mind and doesn't mind who knows it. But like most people who might appear gruff on the outside, i'd wager he's a decent enough fellow if you got to know him.

freeridenick - agreed. The middle bit is fine (when taken at any speed on any bike 😉 ) but the top bit is getting quite eroded. Just as long as its not flattened out completly, just a bit here and there to make it more durable.

Its still the most fun way to get from the res to the cake shop/pub though 😛

Popped into Nirvana a few weeks back for a new hanger. Pretty friendly, good service, generally quite happy. Not ridden with them though.

Simon comes across as miserable, but he can also be very helpful and knows his stuff.

Most people who regularly ride with the nirvana lot do come across as miserable and very cliquey though. I wouldn't ride with them - not my cup of tea at all, and if woodsman is anything to go by then appearances are not always deceptive.

Woodsman : "But, the publicity (informal or formal) that this trail is receiving is far more than it warrants."

TBH I've never heard any publicity saying it's an amazingly brilliant, technical, challenging or otherwise fantastic bit of trail, other than at speed. What I've heard is lots of brilliant stuff about how they've worked with landowners to make sustainable trails that have a future, where the alternative was much worse and pretty much the definition of unsustainable. So they rightly get a lot of attention for that.

I'm glad it's not just me who thought woodsman came across as a bit 'prickly'!

He's actually a really nice guy 😉

ther is a much nicer, longer and faster trail running paralel to BKB

And he's abit tasty on a bike too.( Woodsman that is)

I'm sure he is, perhaps he'd like to take up my offer of a ride on Sunday and show me all the trails I'm obviously missing...

I've never heard any publicity saying it's an amazingly brilliant, technical, challenging or otherwise fantastic bit of trail, other than at speed. What I've heard is lots of brilliant stuff about how they've worked with landowners to make sustainable trails that have a future, where the alternative was much worse and pretty much the definition of unsustainable. So they rightly get a lot of attention for that.

+1.
In fact, +2 and +3 and more.

There is a crew that ride out of Nirvana. They ride xc fast. They don't respond when you say hello. They call themselves the Dorking Cocks. I had to laugh. Nirvana is a fine shop mind. Simon just says it as it is. Always happy to give 'em me hard earned and rate their mech very highly.

I have to say Simon and his crew know their stuff when it comes to builds and fixing, etc - have been using them since 2003.

Heard mixed comments about their rides though; Sat friendly and chilled, Sun fast and unforgiving (or the other way round).

On the subject of BKB, I really don't know what all the fuss is about. Sure, it used to be a good link-up trail to Peaslake/Pitch (always gave me that Endor/speeder-bike feeling) but it's hardly ground-breaking (even though I do continually find myself doing it when in the area).