[Closed] Bite point - close to the bar for more power?

I run mine so that the merest hint of touching the lever starts the brakes biting - and with the lever about as far away from the bars as it will go. I can't stand long lever throw and prefer braking from the outer knuckles. On older brakes I used to over-fill them to achieve this.

I'm not a fan of very angled levers either.

That's how I'd have mine ideally (I think...). I have the contact adjustment all the way out and still have 2.5cm of free stroke. But it doesn't bother me enough to try hacks and have possible pad clearance/alignment issues.

People brake with parts of their fingers other than the outer knuckle?!

It's largely down to personal preference. I'd hate having my brakes set up like Scotroutes above for example! But if it works it works. It's generally accepted that having the bite point close to the bar helps with fatigue on long descents though as you are not stretching for the lever. It doesn't increase power though.
If you don't mind noisy brakes in the wet, sintered pads will be more powerful. 220mm rotor up front will also create more power and heat dissipation.
There's a trend around here for people to run their levers pretty well parallel to the ground because Barelli / Metallica do that. While it puts your levers in a good position for riding down cliffs, it's not great for anything else. So again, just because it works for someone else's riding style doesn't meant it'll work for you.
I like my G2 RSC but they do lack ultimate stopping power when in those 'Oh f&#k!!' moments. Even with a 220mm rotor and sintered pads. Even Deore 4 pot brakes have better power. G2s are good for modulation though.

I'll give it another go, less fatigue might mean less drop in power. It just occurred to me, I could try bringing the bite point closer by using the reach adjuster rather than the contact adjuster - that way, I'm not lengthening the free stroke, which might have been what lost my confidence.

I think I'm ok with semi-sintered, they were a huge boost from standard organics. I'm ok with a bit of noise but I wouldn't want constant howling or not working well when cold. I'm not sure a different brand would make an appreciable difference. In terms of total cost until arriving at a final solution, trying a 220mm rotor would be 1/4-1/3rd of a cost of a better brake!

Yes, I thought I was far enough from such extremes, but just 5 degrees further was all it took for an improvement. There are a few other small things, that are ok and I didn't think were worth messing with, that I'm now going to experiment with.

Those moments - it would be confidence inspiring and cause less comfort braking, if I knew I could bring things to a rapid halt on demand.

Ah yes, I'd adjust the lever position with the reach adjuster rather than the freestroke adjuster. If not obvious, that adjuster just limits the 'dead spot' when one starts to pull on the lever but nothing happens at the pistons rather than an actual bite point adjustment (which I think the old Avid Juicy 7 was IIRC). Other than to match front and rear lever feel, there's no point in adjusting that dial to increase lever throw.

I've posted this on another thread and I'm still no clearer on what I need to do but I've got Code RSC brakes and I really like them...but I hate the amount of lever pull I need to do - far too much. I'd like them closer to scotroutes' set-up but maybe not quite so immediate.
Levers are set so my outer knuckle rests on the end of the blade. I'd like to reduce the free stroke but I have no adjustment left and no idea how to sort the brake so that the contact point adjuster is all the way out (or in?) With brand new pads...as the pads wear down I'd expect to have to adjust the contact point to move it closer to reduce lever throw (which gets longer as pads wear). Only way I get the feel sorted is having this fully adjusted and as pads wear the lever throw grows (and then feels more spongey - no aid in the system but the modulation seems much spongier).

Locking up is very easy so it isn't about ability to add power, I just don't want so much lever throw (which should maintain the firmish feel I've got just now)...

Isn't meant to be a thread hijack, more to add to the questions on how to get a preferred set-up.

I had a coaching session with Elliot Heap earlier this year and had a quick do on his bike.
He ran his brakes very close with no bite on the first bit of travel. This was to stop him braking when accidently grabbing brakes.

Have you tried levers angled further up?

If you've got the bite point that close to the bar do you situate the levers further inwards along the bars so only your index finger can pull it? To prevent lever rub on other fingers/knuckles?

Levers are set so my outer knuckle rests on the end of the blade.

I can't picture what you mean by this at all.

I hold the bar and extend my index finger...the crease between my fingernail and fingerprint part of my finger and the middle bit of the finger sits on the lever blade at the far end of the blade - furthest from the pivot. It means when I want to pull the brake I roll my finger like I'm about to clench my first and the lever is pulled.

I think it is a very standard position for brake levers and fingers but suspect my description makes it sound 'special'...

@bikesandboots

I really think you might need to do some hand/finger strengthening exercises. Without seeing your bike first hand, your setup sounds pretty much spot on I'd say. Personally I have my brakes set so I can only brake with 1 finger, levers far enough in board that I couldn't reach for them with 2. I have them set in the 30-35deg angled down region, bite point set so that levers are parallel with bars when they engage (which probably leaves 10-15mm of squish before the lever touches the grip and won't go any further). I like my brakes with a fair amount of free stroke too, I HATE immediate brakes... Smooth and progressive for the win, and feel over bite any day of the week.

I don't have them now, but have run G2 Ultimates (same as the RSC's but with carbon levers) on a bike with 200/180 rotors, and @ 92kg (plus riding gear) they were more than man enough to stop me on any of the stuff I rode including uplift day @ Antur Stiniog etc.

I've got Trickstuff Maxima's on my current trail bike... They are staggeringly good, but I find 200/180 rotors too much! I have to actively make sure I brake less. I'm running cheap pads in there to lessen the braking effect too and they're still staggeringly powerful. I can't go smaller than 180 on the rear of the bike, otherwise I'd downsize to 180/160 (don't like running same size rotors both ends as I find it too easy to lock the rear up when both brakes are equally powerful) to lessen their effect...

Older Guide RS's on my "XC" (take that with a pinch of salt) bike, 180/160 rotors... I'm no riding god, but have dropped some mates on their enduro bikes on some of my local trails on it, and I wouldn't want any more braking power on it... Run the levers on that bike even closer to the bar than on my trail bike if anything.

FWIW I'm used to Brembo M4's and M50's with Radial Master cylinders, 330mm floating rotors and braided lines on my motorbikes too, so am very familiar with eyeball popping power and peerless modulation...

Have you tried levers angled further up?

No, but I expect it would make both finger fatigue and body position worse, and possibly introduce wrist pain too.

If you’ve got the bite point that close to the bar do you situate the levers further inwards along the bars so only your index finger can pull it? To prevent lever rub on other fingers/knuckles?

Good point... if your index finger is pulling in a straight line, the flick at the end of the lever would at least brush your index finger, especially with gloves on.

@mboy - thanks for your comprehensive response, here and in my previous thread. Exercises have crossed my mind (reading of heavier riders such as you getting along fine), there are devices such as Gripmaster to help with this.

I like my brakes with a fair amount of free stroke too, I HATE immediate brakes… Smooth and progressive for the win, and feel over bite any day of the week.

What I think I like: free stroke as it is now (to maintain rest and bite positions), lighter free stroke (like XTs, which I've felt but not ridden), modulation as these have, but then a ramp-up in power (progression, not sure if this is possible in a hydraulic system) with more lever pull but not requiring much more force.

I have the levers wound right out so only the first two joints of my finger have to move to pull it. I am convinced this is biomechanically better!

You increase power by;

More efficient system (good)
Bigger contact patch (good, but costs weight)
Increase friction at braking surface (good pads, not quiet pads)
Larger leverage angle at caliper (bigger rotors) (good, costs weight)
Longer levers (weirdly, no idea why this isn't more of a thing - look at how long motorbike levers are - why don't we just position brakes further inboard with longer levers?)
Some form of mechanical leverage multiplier (a cam, Shimano servo wave) (moronic as it makes it harder to actually judge the amount of braking power being used).
Improve tyre grip (pressure, materials, cost of weight)

The last one is just being better at braking. Do it less often but harder and you won't pump out. Weight the bike appropriately for the terrain whilst braking (compress the suspension), and select good braking areas and you will need to brake for shorter periods as you will lose traction less.

Of all the things you can do, shimanos solution is the most dumb. If I was offered a set of their brakes I'd take their xc race levers on Saint calipers.

Bite point – close to the bar for more power?

Not IMO.

What it does do is cause less hand fatigue because your fingers are in a better position for mechanical advantage and, on long descents with relentless braking that can't be let up, you have a greater range of movement to tolerate lever pump.

YMMV

i run my levers so the brake lever comes to the bar. As it touches the bar its at full power/lock.

This allows me to be at max braking power with pretty much a closed fist, which gives me more power or sustained power than an out stretched finger pulling for all its worth.

This in turn means the first part of the lever stroke does nothing, so it allows my finger to be pulling the level already fairly bent/close to a fist, again, allowing me to have more hand strength on the controls.

I run my levers inboard enough so its just my index finger activating them and the lever not interfering with my remaining fingers (as if it did... i wouldnt have any braking power).

I wouldnt say i have any particular upper body strength above the average (i dont do weights or anything), but have never struggled with issues relating to grip strength or arm pump on prolonged heavy braking etc.

For ref: Shimano 4 pot brakes with Uberbike Race Matrix pads, F 203 R 180, short travel trail bike (that gets ridden on all trails, blue to black, off piste etc)

It’s largely down to personal preference.

This.

^ Yep. I'd not set up a customer's bike the way I have mine. They are much more "neutral".

The brakes should be adequate for me and my use

I usually buy the most powerful brakes I can afford. The difference between a set of decent XC brakes and a set designed for more "extreme" use is noticeable, and you shouldn't be thinking "I don't need them" It wasn't so long ago that people thought 100mm forks were too extreme for regular XC riding. I've used Saint and Code for a while now, and I wouldn't go back to anything less powerful than that now other than for general XC pootling where instant braking isn't necessary.

Position is totally personal preference, so take a Torq/allen key with you on a ride and try to bracket the lever position and lever throw on a bit of ground that you're comfy with until you feel that you've got to a place you like, and don't be afraid to start at the extremes to get a feel for what's possible; Yoann Barelli runs his brakes totally flat for instance.

The last bit is a trickier one...Are you doing your braking in the right place? No amount of fiddling with position/brakes/pads/rotor size is going to make up for braking mid corner or panic-braking in the middle of a tricky section or late braking because you didn't see something you should've.

Hard to say for sure from a post on the internet, but I wonder if it's all just a symptom of your brakes being underpowered for your weight and use?

I certainly found the Guide RSCs woefully inadequate and I've also seen negative comments about the G2s from reviewers that I'd trust.

Could you try a mate's bike with some Shimano 4-pots on it, I have Zees on two of my bikes and basically never give my brakes a thought. I have Code Rs on another and they seem a bit less powerful so I do sometimes have cause for concern when riding steep trails (e.g Date Night at Inners was the last time I wished I had Zees on that bike too).

Unsure underpowered is a thing nowadays...I really rated my Guide RS brakes on previous bike and found them more powerful/better than my previous Hope M4s...I really rated the Hope levers as I could adjust the lever to the feel I liked...if I knew the Hope levers could work with the Code calipers, I think I'd get them fitted as the adjustment on the Hope lever seemed to make a genuine difference for the better, but the Code RSC lever I seem to need to adjust it to the extreme to get the lever feel I like - a more solid feel with a bit of give rather than a softer feel with a spongier feel - which lasts for a while until the pads wear down and more lever throw is needed.

I'm saying that and I'm now 20Kg heavier than I was with same rotor sizes and pads used, yet the Code brakes are definitely a much better brake...just the lever feel is something I need to work on as I'm sure I should be able to get it sorted, I just don't quite know what I need to do.

It sounds odd, tbh. My brakes are pretty old hat now and even then I don't have to squeeze particularly hard at any point for long. Are you sure it's not just pad or rotor contamination that's reducing friction and requiring more finger strength? Have you tried other people's bikes?

You increase power by;

<snip>
Bigger contact patch (good, but costs weight)
<snip>
Improve tyre grip (pressure, materials, cost of weight)

The last one is just being better at braking. Do it less often but harder and you won’t pump out. Weight the bike appropriately for the terrain whilst braking (compress the suspension), and select good braking areas and you will need to brake for shorter periods as you will lose traction less.

Nice summary. To be precise, those increase braking traction and so effective power. I have no problem with traction (due in part to doing those things), but still working on improving it.

@v7fmp interesting. That's not for me, but I'm curious. So where along your finger does the lever blade rest when you're not braking? The flick at the end of the lever doesn't brush your middle finger at full squeeze?

I usually buy the most powerful brakes I can afford. The difference between a set of decent XC brakes and a set designed for more “extreme” use is noticeable, and you shouldn’t be thinking “I don’t need them”

Would have only been £100 extra to spec Code RSCs, easily affordable. Just thought to myself I'm not that fast I don't need those, I'll have sent myself over the bars with them. I'd already specced up from the 2-pot base spec and thought these should be plenty.

I wonder if it’s all just a symptom of your brakes being underpowered for your weight and use?

I'd be surprised if this is the case, I'd easier believe that I'm weak than that I'm fast, and I'm certainly not heavy.

Are you sure it’s not just pad or rotor contamination that’s reducing friction and requiring more finger strength?

Yes, refreshing after a couple of months did help just a tiny bit (I transport the bike on the outside of my car).

Could you try a mate’s bike with some Shimano 4-pots on it

Have you tried other people’s bikes?

I'll be working on befriending people with better brakes 🙂 I've felt Code RSCs, XT M8120s, and MT5s in car parks but don't know people well enough to ask for a ride. My current ones are the best I've ever experienced, but this isn't saying much as the only others I've ridden in anger are Shimano MT201 and SRAM Level T, both on smaller rotors too.

Gripmaster will be getting ordered.

I will try and get some pictures for you, its probably easier than trying to explain.

For me, brakes are really only properly needed when going downhill, so I have mine angled to suit me low on the bike, rather than at full +35" inside leg.
Run them very inboard, using only one finger and just enough on the adjuster that my index finger 'moves' the lever with no stretching etc.
Bite-points, I just wind off.

On my FS I've a Zee on the front and just a 2-pot SLX for the rear, but 203mm discs both ends.

I come from a motorcycling background, so use to immense power - as my Dad use to say, your brakes should be more powerful than your engine.

 I probably have weakish fingers, I don’t do much else that would keep them strong.

Eldest uses one of these each day and says it plus gym work has transformed his ability to hold on, brake and not be as arm pumped.

I like some "pull" on the front lever but I like the rear brake to be biting pretty early in the lever throw - like, skid-tastically sharp.

I have the levers wound right out so only the first two joints of my finger have to move to pull it. I am convinced this is biomechanically better!

Agree.I've always found that when I have my levers too close, the lever has to 'slide' along my finger (from the distal to the middle phalanx) through the travel which feels horrible.

Secondly, the joints in your body are extremely efficient at converting energy (power) into force. What this means is that while max force can be improved by optimising leverage, efficiency (and fatigue) aren't really. So unless you're reaching the limit of the force your body (finger) can apply, there oughtn't be much difference in fatigue between lever positions.

I'll bet your hands are getting fatigued because you're gripping the bar too hard, and by the end of a long descent, you're noticing that as a reduction in braking. Try loosening your grip while simultaneously bending your arms (and legs) more, to absorb the ground better through your arms (and legs).

Longer levers (weirdly, no idea why this isn’t more of a thing – look at how long motorbike levers are – why don’t we just position brakes further inboard with longer levers?)

Because longer levers = more squishy feeling and reduced pad movement. Even a +10% longer lever will feel remarkably squishy and will make it harder to align pads. BITD riding trials, we used to use aftermarket levers with smaller pistons to achieve the same thing. They were more of a PITA to set up (albeit on rim brakes) and while I quite liked the squish, many people found it too unpleasant.

Agree.I’ve always found that when I have my levers too close, the lever has to ‘slide’ along my finger (from the distal to the middle phalanx) through the travel which feels horrible.

Was having a play with lever position last weekend - that's the same issue i have. There's a point where it goes from "fine" to "eurgh" for me. Not sure if a more solid lever action would help as there'd be less sliding?

 I’ll have sent myself over the bars with them.

I think lots of folk think that, but in reality what you get are brakes that work to your favour. A quick squeeze and you slow down sufficiently so that you don't end up second guessing yourself or doing too much panic braking when you shouldn't because you're still going a wee bit too quickly.

Also all the additional braking adds so much more energy sapping fatigue to your riding. grabbing a handful of brakes, tensing, body in the wrong place, fighting with the bike. It all adds up and soon, sure enough you feel whacked out.

Got the medium and heavy Gripmasters, they're about ok for my non-dominant and dominant hands respectively. Easy enough to squash, but just right for doing lots of controlled reps. I also got a powerball. I'm resolving to doing my best at sorting myself out rather than patch over it with some mega brakes.

unless you’re reaching the limit of the force your body (finger) can apply, there oughtn’t be much difference in fatigue between lever positions

Interesting.

I’ll bet your hands are getting fatigued because you’re gripping the bar too hard, and by the end of a long descent, you’re noticing that as a reduction in braking. ...

Quite possibly, I'll try and pay attention to this. I might also try thinner grips when my current ones are done, although I'm not sure how much difference 1-2mm (5%) smaller diameter would make.

I think lots of folk think that, but in reality what you get are brakes that work to your favour.

Well put, I soon realised my thinking was wrong 🙂

It all adds up and soon, sure enough you feel whacked out.

Good point. I should fiddle a bit with my fork, it feels fine but it might be capable of better. Also my OEM handlebar (35mm, 400g, 6061 aluminium) might not be helping.

It's been mentioned a couple of times but I don't think you've responded in your replies. Are you running your brakes inboard so that your index, and perhaps your middle finger are pulling on the end of the lever where there is maximum leverage? If there is less than 20mm or so between grips and brake clamp, you are probably not using the end of the lever to brake with.

Sit on bike in “attack position” grip bar, straighten finger, my brake level is set to the angle is same as my finger extends both lever and bite point as close to the bar as possible and lever about 1.5” inboard from the grip so my finger is in the end of the lever hook.

Example picture, no brakes applied but covered.

Secondly, the joints in your body are extremely efficient at converting energy (power) into force. What this means is that while max force can be improved by optimising leverage, efficiency (and fatigue) aren’t really. So unless you’re reaching the limit of the force your body (finger) can apply, there oughtn’t be much difference in fatigue between lever positions.

I’ll bet your hands are getting fatigued because you’re gripping the bar too hard, and by the end of a long descent, you’re noticing that as a reduction in braking. Try loosening your grip while simultaneously bending your arms (and legs) more, to absorb the ground better through your arms (and legs).

I'd argue that's the wrong way round. Having fingers off the bars and extending around a lever ~1" away puts more fatigue on the arm as it's having to do much more work. Just try going rock climbing, you'll get callouses on your palms. Then stick at it for a few months and as your grip strength improves you'll be able to grip with your fingertips. What you absolutely will not be able to do is hang on by your fingers on day 1.

The goal of having the bite point as close to the bars as possible is to keep your hands on the bars as much as possible. If your arms are getting pumped then clearly there's fatigue!

I agree motorbike brakes are a red herring, they have to be operated through fairly bulky gloves and work under vastly higher hydraulic advantage with little/no free-play. Compared to mountainbike brakes the lever is rock solid as a result. Wouldnt be popular on a mountain bike due to the perceived drag and noise.

In answer to the thread title, I hate running the bite point close to the bar after finding myself at the bottom of the ski slope at the start of the mega and finding the bite point on my Shimano brakes had moved slightly toward the bars.
Wether it was a bad bleed or the Shimano wandering brake point was irrelevant as I had no brake when I really needed it. No time to wind the lever out with a snow bank approaching fast.

As for fatigue on long descents, I found fatter grips helped as I have fairly big mitts. Also I managed to get a go on a grip tester. My right was around 60kgf and left way lower, possibly down to breaking my left wrist badly some years ago.
A cheap set of spring grip exercise things from decathlon helped bring the left somewhere near the right.

I'm with @spooky_b329 on this (hadn't noticed that he did this, too, though)
I always used to get fatigued hands, and didn't like the way that the levers interacted with the fingers other than the index fingers.
Once I'd changed my brakes to be inboard of my shifters, the whole issue went away - all my bikes are like this now (apart from the singlespeed and the road bike, obviously)

I might be throwing a spanned in the works but I have my brakes levers not far off horizontal to the ground. I find it helps me angle my hands upwards and absorbs the forces into my wrists more and not solely into my hands.

Haven't read all this in detail, so apologies if i'm repeating someone else, but bar sweep can make a difference here, too.

I had a similar issue a while back and read up a bit. I ended up getting a 12 degree sweep bar (from a 9 deg) and on the first set of dh switchbacks felt so much more in control and less fatigued after a ride.

https://www.sq-lab.com/en/ergonomics/sqlab-contact-points/the-hand/painful-hands/

Try the levers more horizontal. I did this years ago in an effort to reduce fatigue/arm pump and it worked a treat.

If it’s your fingers more than your arms getting fatigued, have you tried running thinner grips? Might give your non-braking fingers less work to do.

i wouldnt have thought you want your braking power to be defined by the gertness of your fingers! if youre hanging on the brake to stop youll snap the lever off!

i would say you want your brakes strong enough to be able to throw you over the bars if you deploy them hard, and then modulate back from that?

Losing power due to arm pump i guess is a different thing.
Ive rolled mine back a bit from inline with my arms, to encourage my weight back.
bite point is a bit closer in than you would first think, which does help arm pump
and i use ergon GA3 grips, which are great. i cant fathom why anyone uses straight grips.

It’s been mentioned a couple of times but I don’t think you’ve responded in your replies. Are you running your brakes inboard so that your index, and perhaps your middle finger are pulling on the end of the lever where there is maximum leverage? If there is less than 20mm or so between grips and brake clamp, you are probably not using the end of the lever to brake with.

Might have missed it. Yes, index finger only at the very end of the lever at the flick. 10mm between the grips and the brake clamp. I think that might be closer than some people do, but I run my hands on the very end of the grips.

Try the levers more horizontal. I did this years ago in an effort to reduce fatigue/arm pump and it worked a treat.

I think too horizontal was part of the problem - finger tendons pulling in an awkward line.

If it’s your fingers more than your arms getting fatigued, have you tried running thinner grips? Might give your non-braking fingers less work to do.

Not yet, but I will. 1.5mm off a 31mm diameter doesn't sound like much, but I guess manufacturers make thin ones for a reason.

Not yet, but I will. 1.5mm off a 31mm diameter doesn’t sound like much, but I guess manufacturers make thin ones for a reason.

1.5mm off the diameter means nearly 5mm off the circumference, so it may make more difference than you think

I adjusted my leavers to a "far out" bite point after bleeding and a pad change. Went with it like that to Antur Stiniog. Felt great in the car park but first descent it was utterly horrible. Terrible arm pump, lower power, less control. Adjusted the levers so they lock the wheel closer to the bar and it was much much better.