really poor show. IMHO
Comments at end say it all.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/summer-is-coming-scotland-here-we-come.html
Ignorance/thoughtlessness rather than intent really. (if you're not local, there's really no way you'd know how iffy relations with the golf club have been) If I was Ben I'd be scooting out a second edit quick smart though
Can't manage any indignation about the pool, though, much more crap than that gets washed into leithen water off the roads and farms
As I'm not a local a bit of an explanation would be good ????
Not 100% convinced any damage is being done by a bike jumping into the pool for a couple of minutes.
Have you ever tried cleaning oil and filth off a chain with nothing but cold water ?
Nothing is shifting.
Looks more like people engaging our nations current favourite hobby of ****ing moaning about absolutely everything 🤔
The problem here is one of perception. I think that complaints about the water jump and contamination are nonsense but it only takes a few folk to see that, complain, and lots of hard-fought access could become a problem. Same with the fence jump.
I mean... Who would actually think this is a good idea? You can see the golf club, and folk outside.
Well without knowing local landowner politics, why not? Are you not supposed to ride bikes where golfers can see?
Jesus, that WillCoates is fair blowing off steam after his National 4’s! Every comment that is negative, he is in there. It’s like watching the cult of sick.
Well without knowing local landowner politics, why not?
How well is it working out for them?
Should have done their homework first. Not rocket science.
As an Innerleithen resident there is an interesting dynamic going on. TBH the golf course have actually been really great for example opening their doors for coffee this weekend for the SES. I think what everyone needs to remember is folk are just going about their normal daily stuff and do at times perceive mountain bikers as slightly intimidating, whether we are or not.
I think perception is the whole process here as most of the stuff I use on bikes is of intention biodegradable. I'm not sure the jump into the golf course car park is by itself an issue if they warned people before hand. Golfers are not all madcap anti-bikers and the washing of the bikes in the Leithen water is nonsense, often ending in arguments surrounding the natural run off being somehow the fault of mountain bikers!
What everyone needs to remember is when we are feeling rad or showing off to our buddies this can be construed as anti-social behaviour by some and that's not a good image to project. If people just took a minute to think about how elderly people or even those who don't understand mountain biking may see us, we could keep all our stunts contained in the forests and areas away from population centres and do our image a good bit of PR.
Well without knowing local landowner politics, why not? Are you not supposed to ride bikes where golfers can see
Never been to the place, or even aware of it... but jumping a bike over a fence into a public/private car park can never be a bright idea if shooting a corporate type video if you ask me. Whether it's golfers, public, a stadium or an office building, it's simply not the best idea. Even if it looks cool and fun.
I like Bird and how they are as a company... but that, is just a daft idea.
Are the people from Scotlandshire envious that the little englunders ride better than themselves in their own back yard. The American at the bottom the comments has the right idea. Anyway the music was awful and perhaps the golfer watching was hoping the cyclist was gonna fall off so was watching for a laugh.
Maybe they should try swearing in a northern accent.
Tails - its more to to with understanding scots access laws. don't be a dick is the main principle and these guys have broken it.
Thats why the anger. We get a bit of this from English riders thinking they can do what they wan't. Well you cannot
Tails is Willcoates and I claim my £5
Come on tj you think locals haven't been doing similar? I've seen footage of "locals" doing the same jump. I've also seen people washing bikes in that bit of the river. What about the environmental impact of the golf course?
Maybe not but I have also seen this a few times - riders from England misunderstanding our rights - and two wrongs don't make a right
Looks more like people engaging our nations current favourite hobby of **** moaning about absolutely everything
I agree, and while they're at it giving Bird a load of extra publicity in the process. I probably would have missed that video if it wasn't for the moaners 👍
Seriously it's just jumping over a fence and into some water, surely there are more worthwhile things for people to get a bit of sand in their fannys about!!
We get a bit of this from English riders thinking they can do what they wan’t. Well you cannot
I've got a Scottish mate that I was riding with once at Chicksands. He did a skid, bold as brass, on English soil.
Makes you think.
🙄
tjagain
Member
Maybe not
Well, the thread title is "how not to endear yourself to the locals".
The jump into the car park is a fairly well photographed spot.
There were already locals swimming in the pool when they arrived.
When in Rome etc.
riders from England misunderstanding our rights – and two wrongs don’t make a right
My understanding was that whole hillside was cheeky but tolerated (and very well publicised by the locals, if it's that contentious dont ride it yourself and don't publicise it!). So it's outside the access laws anyway,
riders from England misunderstanding our rights
Seems to be a bit ‘do as we say, not as we do’ from the sounds of it...
So it’s outside the access laws anyway,
No its not unless you ride like a dick. Access laws apply. there is no such thing as "cheeky~" under scots law. Access rights apply to 90+ % of the country
Feels like the mumsnet thread again. Yeah maybe some golfers look at them doing that and think they're a bunch of ****s or scary youths, but its a jump to a grass bank with lots of space around. They're not putting anyone at risk or causing property damage, it seems like the complaints are entirely about image.
weeksy Subscriber
Never been to the place, or even aware of it… but jumping a bike over a fence into a public/private car park can never be a bright idea if shooting a corporate type video if you ask me. Whether it’s golfers, public, a stadium or an office building, it’s simply not the best idea. Even if it looks cool and fun.
No one seems to complain about that Danny McAskill bloke riding on pavements, along railings, jumping off posts etc.
Doesn't seem to have done promoting Red Bull too much harm.
Tails – its more to to with understanding scots access laws. don’t be a dick is the main principle and these guys have broken it.
I'm still none the wiser, whats wrong with the video ?? Were they riding somewhere they shouldn't. They seemed to be sticking to well used trails 🤔🤔
Taxi - jumping over the fence and chucking their bikes in the river. Breaking "don't be a dick"
tjagain Member
Taxi – jumping over the fence and chucking their bikes in the river. Breaking “don’t be a dick”
But I can't remember any Scot getting outraged by this? (If the link doesn't work, it's the vid of Danny MacAskill jumping off various bits of Edinburgh).
Doing this stuff in broad daylight in the middle of a city, on public infrastructure & buildings with traffic & pedestrians nearby....
Yeah, OK it's a bit of whataboutery but is it OK because he's Scottish? Or double standards?
Bikes not to mention motor vehicles are riden/driven through water every minute of every day. There's no environmental impact in this particular instance. And jumping over without in any way damaging a fence as part of a commercial shoot isn't being a dick. Come on what's the real problem ?
Taxi - you show with that your lack of understanding. the right to ride in Scotland offroad is a qualified right not an absolute one - and qualified by the need to act responsibly. this clearly does not apply to street riding.
Sorry, but I'm still trying to get my head round the issue of putting a bike in a river. Are folks seriously saying that will cause pollution to the water..or is there something else I'm missing.
Storm in a teacup! Get over yourselves, bit of bike riding followed by a quick dip. Perhaps close all the mtb trails if you don't like this sort of thing on Scottish soil, its not like MTB brings much tourism or money into the economy up there 🙄
But within the context of a commercial shoot how were they acting irresponsibily, the fence and water thing don't go over that line to any reasonable person.
You don't define reasonable as perceived by 0.5% of people but by the majority view. The majority seeing the Bird antics might ask "whats going here" but when told its filming for a promotional video would be fine with it, probably be interested enough hang around and watch for a bit.
I, for one, will no longer be riding through stream crossings now I've been made aware of the environmental devastation it can cause.
just seems like case of the recreationally offended brigade finding this mornings reason for being outraged to me.
Yeah, **** the locals!
Goddamn snowflakes need to toughen up. Then they can take this newly found 'go **** yourself' attitude to local meetings and show everyone who's boss.
It's not like the people who live there might know best. After all, everyone in Scotland is just jealous of the access rights you enjoy in England and Wales
@Brucewee. Yet again what are they doing wrong in this specific video, don't say they jumped over a fence and into water. But what exactly about how and where their ridng is wrong. Yeah and the angry scotsman thing, it's not a good look 😉
I'm not a local. You'd be best asking the locals who were commenting on the PB article who know the local area and local politics.
If I have to choose between listening to the locals and listening to visitors with a strong sense of entitlement I'll listen to the locals every time.
Maybe because that's what we do in Scotland, that's why we enjoy the access rights we do.
*looks in thread*
*quietly backs out again*
shock horror, man jumps fence on his bike wont somebody please think of the chillllldreenn…..
jeez
Hobnob anyone?
the video and comments linked to above seem to be removed now
Has it been taken down? - The OP's link doesn't work for me.
Edit - TJ's confirmed
Provocative post from the OP and fair bit of venom on here from a lot of the Scots posters- is compare attitudes on this thread with comments about access on other threads.
As pointed out earlier can only conclude there's an element of cross border prejudice.
Rather ironic that people are saying 'don't be a dick' then publishing aggressive dickish posts on here.
I agree with 'vinnyeh'. This thread seems to have developed into a vehicle for a few of our neighbours from the North to have a whinge about the English. Not that some Scotsmen need an excuse to whinge about the English...
Its not cross border prejudice. Its the lack of understanding by some of our neighbours as to what scots access laws mean.
In england you have an absolute right to ride on bridleways and the like. In Scotland you have a qualified right. that qualification is to be responsible. If you are not acting responsibly then you are not in accordance with our access laws.
In this particular case there is already "political" discussions with locals and MTBers. A lot of folk have worked hard to keep good local relations. People who do not understand the need to act responsibly spoil things for others.
If locals are saying that this kind of behaviour isn't helping their cause, what makes people think they're just moaning? Don't you think they might know a bit more about the local politics of the place than tourists?
And it's not whether it was actually dangerous or reckless, but the perception of it. People often find mountain bikers intimidating, so when we're in public a bit of restraint is a good thing. Obviously go as mental as you like in the woods though.
It must be so difficult to be English.
Why can't the rest of the world just understand English culture and customs and adapt themselves to it?
The rest of the world can be so backwards.
Not going to comment on the issues. Just wanted to say that if anyone has ever had any dealings with Ben and co at Bird Bikes they will know that they would be the last people and bike company to ever intentionally do something that might cause issues or offence. They are the one of the best companies I have ever encountered and I am not just talking about in the MTB world.
I think you'll find plenty of people in England, Wales, Scotland, and the whole of Europe, and possibly even the rest of the entire world, will occasionally jump fences and dip their bikes into water....regardless of 'access' status
Not going to comment on the issues. Just wanted to say that if anyone has ever had any dealings with Ben and co at Bird Bikes they will know that they would be the last people and bike company to ever intentionally do something that might cause issues or offence. They are the one of the best company’s I have ever encountered and I am not just talking about in the MTB world.
Indeed - there was an apology from them on that thread
p.s. the English vs Scottish (or vice-versa) stuff in this thread is categorically nonsense, but undoubtedly will continue ad infinitum lol.
,
There was a post on Facebook in the not to distant past where locals were claiming litter dropped at the inners uplift point was ‘probably English’ seems a bit of local dislike for visitors south of the border. It’s a shame as the riding there is some of the best I have ever sampled. Pretty sure bike tourists bring a load of money to the area. Education and support is probably needed as regardless of race, country of origin or chosen sport the world is full of inconsiderate pricks, that other than some borderline loutish behaviour. I have seen countless edits of locals jumping that fence! Also Everyone seems to love the Dudes of Hazzards edits where they have been seen jumping and breaking you tree saplings etc. To me it’s more that the sport of MTB needs to consider its behaviour and the messages it sends out and that starts at the top with the pros and OEM’s.
So is the problem where the video was filmed or the manner of the riding ? I wouldn't judge the riding as irresponsible, not for expert riders taking part in a promotional video. So is it the venue, a little explanation from some locals about whats specifically going on there would give some perspective.
I've always been a bit ashamed of the fact that I've never been to Scotland 😳😳. But is it really the case that the much vaunted access laws leave your every action open to the judgment of the least tolerant.
mmm? TJ "racist"..makes you think...
About ten years ago I remember racing the SDA at Innerleithen. Word got around that it wasn't OK to wash your bike in the river. Turns out that some people had been washing their bikes in the river and a couple came down for a chat. In a very polite and pleasant way they made it clear if they kept doing it they were going to call the police.
Now, it's probably not illegal to wash your bike in a river. It probably does absolutely no harm. But the consensus was that it obviously rubs some people up the wrong way so the easiest solution was for people not to wash their bikes in the river.
The alternative route would have been to let them call the police, probably have it make the local papers, generate bad feeling, and cause problems for the races organisers in the future. It's just one of those things. Putting your bike in the river unsettles some people in Innerleithen so just don't do it.
As far as the fence goes, I don't know. People are obviously trying to get on with the golfers. It's probably just one of those things everyone knows, ie you don't mess around too much where the golfers can see you.
It's a question of shifting mentality from 'I'm not doing anything illegal so anyone who doesn't like it just has to suck it up.' to 'While I have pretty much unlimited access to the outdoors it's by consensus so the less things I do that are known to antagonise people the better.'
In this case, Bird didn't do anything intentionally wrong, they just strayed close to some unwritten boundaries. They've done the right thing and taken the video down so fair play to them.
Ahh, "unwritten boundaries".
If they were written down somewhere it might help people avoid straying too close to them. As it is though, what with them being "unwritten", perhaps there is the danger that said boundaries change dependant upon circumstances and the individual who has taken it upon themselves to uphold them?
As an Englishman who has lived in Scotland and who links that the Land Reform Act (Scotland) of 2003 is a work of political genius,I can see both sides here.
It does bug me when people mistakenly interpret the access rules up here as "do what you want". It's a right of "responsible" access. The thing that makes the act a work of genius in my opinion is that they specifically don't define responsible. In the unlikely even that access is widened in England I bet the code will run to hundreds of pages as they'll want to write down exactly what you can and can't do. But here it really is just "don't be a dick". So, yes, you can jump over that fence, but no, you can't jump over that one.
On the other hand, I think Bird have been a bit unlucky to get themselves embroiled in a local issue of which they were probably unaware. Maybe a bit more due diligence was required before filming. But when Danny can throw his bike off everything from Edinburgh castle to the local phone box I can see that they might not have thought that particular fence (or pool) was a big deal.
If they were written down somewhere it might help people avoid straying too close to them
If you were familiar with the Land Reform Act then you'd know that it hinges on "reasonableness", which isn't defined but, you know, it generally seems to work and thousands of people manage to benefit from it every day without upsetting anyone. If you're generating complaints of "unreasonable" behaviour from other mountain bikers then just assume you've crossed a line.
In the unlikely even that access is widened in England I bet the code will run to hundreds of pages as they’ll want to write down exactly what you can and can’t do. But here it really is just “don’t be a dick”. So, yes, you can jump over that fence, but no, you can’t jump over that one.
Good point. Does anyone think that those campaigning in Wales and in England for a Scottish style right of access would include this video in their campaign material? What about those fight against such right of access?
What is the status of the golfie trails?
I thought they were cheeky in the sense that although you have the right to access in Scotland you don't have the right to build a trailer wherever you like, and those aren't just random sheep tracks.
As an Englishman who has lived in Scotland and who links that the Land Reform Act (Scotland) of 2003 is a work of political genius,I can see both sides here.
Indeed. If you're just up for a visit then don't worry too much and keep in mind, 'Don't be a dick, even if I'm not doing anything illegal.' If you inadvertently stray close to any unwritten boundaries someone might have a friendly word and it will all be cool.
If you want to film a sick edit to promote your bike brand then maybe think about running it by someone with local knowledge before releasing it, just to check you're not treading on any toes.
In Bird's case it's entirely possible they did run it by someone who didn't think it was a big deal but then when it came in front of a wider audience others took exception. I haven't seen anyone stand up and say, 'I'm a local rider and what they did is absolutely fine.' so I think they did the right thing in taking the video down.
As an Englishman & a definite ‘No’ voter who has lived in Scotland for 30 years I think the attempts to turn this into an anti-English thing are pretty pathetic.
If you can’t recognise the need to show consideration for local ‘politics’ then you really are part of the problem.
I thought they were cheeky in the sense that although you have the right to access in Scotland you don’t have the right to build a trailer wherever you like, and those aren’t just random sheep tracks.
There are a number of areas (Aviemore Burnside being local to me) where landowners/managers, conservation groups etc are OK with local trail building without any formal trail park being developed. Again, it's about mutual respect and co-operation.
Surely all this was dealt with when you got planning permission to build these trails.........
and now you're just trolling.
I've seen the footage of someone off this forum jumping that fence..... he didn't make such a neat job of it though 🙂
and now you’re just trolling
If by trolling you mean pointing out the blindingly obvious hypocrisy, yes.
If the golf club has existing issues with the mountainbiking community in the area. And it is that way round, you cant spin it as "we have problems with the golfers", mountainbikers are the protagonists here. You can't then turn round and say it's outsiders fault after the trails have been well publicised.
I’ve seen the footage of someone off this forum jumping that fence….. he didn’t make such a neat job of it though
This is the only approved way of dealing with a barbed wire fence oop north.
I like that don't be a dick rule you could apply it to so many of life's little problems. That fence did look like less gifted riders had tried to jump it!
Ridiculous accusations of this being anti english - or people trying to make it that. Its about showing respect for the law in Scotland and how most of us act.
The chip on shoulder only seems to be coming one way to me. from those who do not understand the situation
Anyone remember this?
BBC News - Concern in Innerleithen over mountain bikers' behaviour
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-46822680
The community in the valley is amazing, and there are so many who are supportive of the positive impact bikes have on local businesses, society and health.
Everyone is welcome in the Valley, often I end up picking up random folk on the trails and showing them around. It was Thornilee last weekend, and the Golfie the week before.
We do share our environment with others, and doing so we just need to be respectful towards each other. Be it on bikes, horses, walking, driving cars, walking dogs, or standing around in a car park getting changed.
A single incident can tar an entire group with the same brush.
Well tj, isn't the respectful way of treating others just to politely point out to them that this isn't how things are done locally, and explain the rules and background, rather than to post a shouty thread, calling out the offenders by name in the title, and accusing them of disrespect.
I do wonder sometimes whether, with a slightly different background, some of the posters on here would be members of a different community wandering the streets demanding respect with a knife.
*rolleyes*
Part of the issue here I think is "the golfie" has become something of a destination in it's own right and there are a fair number of folk (mountain bikers particularly) who don't like it. They're very much the minority but they're very vocal and, the more it gets publicised the more noise the don't like to shares make.
Some of the vocal folk have put in a lot of work building the trails now getting ruined by lots of traffic and I can sympathise a little (though the majority of the builders I've met seem at least begrudgingly ok with it) but, IME, a lot of the noisy ones just happen to live there and thought the place was their own private playground.
If it weren't the fence jump or the pool or what ever, the vocals would be finding something else to complain about given its another video of the golfie.
It's a lot of noise about an honest mistake. It's not being a dick, that would be doing it again now it's been flagged or despite knowing it would annoy folks (with legitimate complaints) in the first instance. As is bird apologised and the video has been taken down, sort of the opposites of being a dick imo. Otoh there's plenty of folks making a lot of noise about it still, which imo, it's sort of being a dick about it.
TJ - your argument seems largely dependent on our right to be dick south of the border. None of us have that right, anywhere. The folk regularly being dicks aren't doing it because of any misunderstanding of Scottish access law/rights, they're doing it because they're dicks.
Well tj, isn’t the respectful way of treating others just to politely point out to them that this isn’t how things are done locally, and explain the rules and background, rather than to post a shouty thread, calling out the offenders by name in the title, and accusing them of disrespect.
But such a sensible course of action wouldn't allow him to tack up his lofty member of the species Equus ferus caballus and wave his shouty stick at Sassanachs.
taxi25
Member
@Brucewee. Yet again what are they doing wrong in this specific video, don’t say they jumped over a fence and into water. But what exactly about how and where their ridng is wrong.
OK so, the golfie trails are up behind the golf course- riding there is fine, but there's been a fair bit of contention in the past with the golf club, mostly around parking but also about perceived inconsiderate riding (the parking is a real thing, the rest not so much)
So that fence jump is directly into their car park, which they're already ornery about.
I think the reaction's pretty ridiculous tbf, since basically it says "endear yourself to the locals" but requires insider local knowledge in the first place. I do think they should edit it out, just for the perception but it's nothing to get so screechy about imo.
Its still there just not on the front page
https://www.pinkbike.com/u/millwardmedia/blog/summer-is-coming-scotland-here-we-come.html
Yeah bloody bird and the English
Oh 😀 Scottish man on an ibis
Wish I could do that
I do love that all the racist shite is coming from one direction. do you guys forget I am english by birth? Lots of you showing a bit of anti scots racism by shouting racism so loudly and making comments about professionally offended and the like - when actually all those saying this was not wise to post this video are actually being pretty gentle and nuanced. But no - take it as an opportunity to kick me and tar all scots on the basis of your predjudices not on what was said! Utterly absurd
And yes -dangerousbrain - I have seen quite a few folk posting on here over the years that have come up from down south and ridden like dicks simply because they do not understand the access laws.