Forum menu
If locals are saying that this kind of behaviour isn't helping their cause, what makes people think they're just moaning? Don't you think they might know a bit more about the local politics of the place than tourists?
And it's not whether it was actually dangerous or reckless, but the perception of it. People often find mountain bikers intimidating, so when we're in public a bit of restraint is a good thing. Obviously go as mental as you like in the woods though.
It must be so difficult to be English.
Why can't the rest of the world just understand English culture and customs and adapt themselves to it?
The rest of the world can be so backwards.
Not going to comment on the issues. Just wanted to say that if anyone has ever had any dealings with Ben and co at Bird Bikes they will know that they would be the last people and bike company to ever intentionally do something that might cause issues or offence. They are the one of the best companies I have ever encountered and I am not just talking about in the MTB world.
I think you'll find plenty of people in England, Wales, Scotland, and the whole of Europe, and possibly even the rest of the entire world, will occasionally jump fences and dip their bikes into water....regardless of 'access' status
Not going to comment on the issues. Just wanted to say that if anyone has ever had any dealings with Ben and co at Bird Bikes they will know that they would be the last people and bike company to ever intentionally do something that might cause issues or offence. They are the one of the best company’s I have ever encountered and I am not just talking about in the MTB world.
Indeed - there was an apology from them on that thread
p.s. the English vs Scottish (or vice-versa) stuff in this thread is categorically nonsense, but undoubtedly will continue ad infinitum lol.
,
There was a post on Facebook in the not to distant past where locals were claiming litter dropped at the inners uplift point was ‘probably English’ seems a bit of local dislike for visitors south of the border. It’s a shame as the riding there is some of the best I have ever sampled. Pretty sure bike tourists bring a load of money to the area. Education and support is probably needed as regardless of race, country of origin or chosen sport the world is full of inconsiderate pricks, that other than some borderline loutish behaviour. I have seen countless edits of locals jumping that fence! Also Everyone seems to love the Dudes of Hazzards edits where they have been seen jumping and breaking you tree saplings etc. To me it’s more that the sport of MTB needs to consider its behaviour and the messages it sends out and that starts at the top with the pros and OEM’s.
So is the problem where the video was filmed or the manner of the riding ? I wouldn't judge the riding as irresponsible, not for expert riders taking part in a promotional video. So is it the venue, a little explanation from some locals about whats specifically going on there would give some perspective.
I've always been a bit ashamed of the fact that I've never been to Scotland 😳😳. But is it really the case that the much vaunted access laws leave your every action open to the judgment of the least tolerant.
mmm? TJ "racist"..makes you think...
About ten years ago I remember racing the SDA at Innerleithen. Word got around that it wasn't OK to wash your bike in the river. Turns out that some people had been washing their bikes in the river and a couple came down for a chat. In a very polite and pleasant way they made it clear if they kept doing it they were going to call the police.
Now, it's probably not illegal to wash your bike in a river. It probably does absolutely no harm. But the consensus was that it obviously rubs some people up the wrong way so the easiest solution was for people not to wash their bikes in the river.
The alternative route would have been to let them call the police, probably have it make the local papers, generate bad feeling, and cause problems for the races organisers in the future. It's just one of those things. Putting your bike in the river unsettles some people in Innerleithen so just don't do it.
As far as the fence goes, I don't know. People are obviously trying to get on with the golfers. It's probably just one of those things everyone knows, ie you don't mess around too much where the golfers can see you.
It's a question of shifting mentality from 'I'm not doing anything illegal so anyone who doesn't like it just has to suck it up.' to 'While I have pretty much unlimited access to the outdoors it's by consensus so the less things I do that are known to antagonise people the better.'
In this case, Bird didn't do anything intentionally wrong, they just strayed close to some unwritten boundaries. They've done the right thing and taken the video down so fair play to them.
Ahh, "unwritten boundaries".
If they were written down somewhere it might help people avoid straying too close to them. As it is though, what with them being "unwritten", perhaps there is the danger that said boundaries change dependant upon circumstances and the individual who has taken it upon themselves to uphold them?
As an Englishman who has lived in Scotland and who links that the Land Reform Act (Scotland) of 2003 is a work of political genius,I can see both sides here.
It does bug me when people mistakenly interpret the access rules up here as "do what you want". It's a right of "responsible" access. The thing that makes the act a work of genius in my opinion is that they specifically don't define responsible. In the unlikely even that access is widened in England I bet the code will run to hundreds of pages as they'll want to write down exactly what you can and can't do. But here it really is just "don't be a dick". So, yes, you can jump over that fence, but no, you can't jump over that one.
On the other hand, I think Bird have been a bit unlucky to get themselves embroiled in a local issue of which they were probably unaware. Maybe a bit more due diligence was required before filming. But when Danny can throw his bike off everything from Edinburgh castle to the local phone box I can see that they might not have thought that particular fence (or pool) was a big deal.
If they were written down somewhere it might help people avoid straying too close to them
If you were familiar with the Land Reform Act then you'd know that it hinges on "reasonableness", which isn't defined but, you know, it generally seems to work and thousands of people manage to benefit from it every day without upsetting anyone. If you're generating complaints of "unreasonable" behaviour from other mountain bikers then just assume you've crossed a line.
In the unlikely even that access is widened in England I bet the code will run to hundreds of pages as they’ll want to write down exactly what you can and can’t do. But here it really is just “don’t be a dick”. So, yes, you can jump over that fence, but no, you can’t jump over that one.
Good point. Does anyone think that those campaigning in Wales and in England for a Scottish style right of access would include this video in their campaign material? What about those fight against such right of access?
What is the status of the golfie trails?
I thought they were cheeky in the sense that although you have the right to access in Scotland you don't have the right to build a trailer wherever you like, and those aren't just random sheep tracks.
As an Englishman who has lived in Scotland and who links that the Land Reform Act (Scotland) of 2003 is a work of political genius,I can see both sides here.
Indeed. If you're just up for a visit then don't worry too much and keep in mind, 'Don't be a dick, even if I'm not doing anything illegal.' If you inadvertently stray close to any unwritten boundaries someone might have a friendly word and it will all be cool.
If you want to film a sick edit to promote your bike brand then maybe think about running it by someone with local knowledge before releasing it, just to check you're not treading on any toes.
In Bird's case it's entirely possible they did run it by someone who didn't think it was a big deal but then when it came in front of a wider audience others took exception. I haven't seen anyone stand up and say, 'I'm a local rider and what they did is absolutely fine.' so I think they did the right thing in taking the video down.
As an Englishman & a definite ‘No’ voter who has lived in Scotland for 30 years I think the attempts to turn this into an anti-English thing are pretty pathetic.
If you can’t recognise the need to show consideration for local ‘politics’ then you really are part of the problem.
I thought they were cheeky in the sense that although you have the right to access in Scotland you don’t have the right to build a trailer wherever you like, and those aren’t just random sheep tracks.
There are a number of areas (Aviemore Burnside being local to me) where landowners/managers, conservation groups etc are OK with local trail building without any formal trail park being developed. Again, it's about mutual respect and co-operation.
Surely all this was dealt with when you got planning permission to build these trails.........
and now you're just trolling.
I've seen the footage of someone off this forum jumping that fence..... he didn't make such a neat job of it though 🙂
and now you’re just trolling
If by trolling you mean pointing out the blindingly obvious hypocrisy, yes.
If the golf club has existing issues with the mountainbiking community in the area. And it is that way round, you cant spin it as "we have problems with the golfers", mountainbikers are the protagonists here. You can't then turn round and say it's outsiders fault after the trails have been well publicised.
I’ve seen the footage of someone off this forum jumping that fence….. he didn’t make such a neat job of it though
This is the only approved way of dealing with a barbed wire fence oop north.
I like that don't be a dick rule you could apply it to so many of life's little problems. That fence did look like less gifted riders had tried to jump it!
Ridiculous accusations of this being anti english - or people trying to make it that. Its about showing respect for the law in Scotland and how most of us act.
The chip on shoulder only seems to be coming one way to me. from those who do not understand the situation
Anyone remember this?
BBC News - Concern in Innerleithen over mountain bikers' behaviour
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-46822680
The community in the valley is amazing, and there are so many who are supportive of the positive impact bikes have on local businesses, society and health.
Everyone is welcome in the Valley, often I end up picking up random folk on the trails and showing them around. It was Thornilee last weekend, and the Golfie the week before.
We do share our environment with others, and doing so we just need to be respectful towards each other. Be it on bikes, horses, walking, driving cars, walking dogs, or standing around in a car park getting changed.
A single incident can tar an entire group with the same brush.
Well tj, isn't the respectful way of treating others just to politely point out to them that this isn't how things are done locally, and explain the rules and background, rather than to post a shouty thread, calling out the offenders by name in the title, and accusing them of disrespect.
I do wonder sometimes whether, with a slightly different background, some of the posters on here would be members of a different community wandering the streets demanding respect with a knife.
*rolleyes*
Part of the issue here I think is "the golfie" has become something of a destination in it's own right and there are a fair number of folk (mountain bikers particularly) who don't like it. They're very much the minority but they're very vocal and, the more it gets publicised the more noise the don't like to shares make.
Some of the vocal folk have put in a lot of work building the trails now getting ruined by lots of traffic and I can sympathise a little (though the majority of the builders I've met seem at least begrudgingly ok with it) but, IME, a lot of the noisy ones just happen to live there and thought the place was their own private playground.
If it weren't the fence jump or the pool or what ever, the vocals would be finding something else to complain about given its another video of the golfie.
It's a lot of noise about an honest mistake. It's not being a dick, that would be doing it again now it's been flagged or despite knowing it would annoy folks (with legitimate complaints) in the first instance. As is bird apologised and the video has been taken down, sort of the opposites of being a dick imo. Otoh there's plenty of folks making a lot of noise about it still, which imo, it's sort of being a dick about it.
TJ - your argument seems largely dependent on our right to be dick south of the border. None of us have that right, anywhere. The folk regularly being dicks aren't doing it because of any misunderstanding of Scottish access law/rights, they're doing it because they're dicks.
Well tj, isn’t the respectful way of treating others just to politely point out to them that this isn’t how things are done locally, and explain the rules and background, rather than to post a shouty thread, calling out the offenders by name in the title, and accusing them of disrespect.
But such a sensible course of action wouldn't allow him to tack up his lofty member of the species Equus ferus caballus and wave his shouty stick at Sassanachs.
taxi25
Member
@Brucewee. Yet again what are they doing wrong in this specific video, don’t say they jumped over a fence and into water. But what exactly about how and where their ridng is wrong.
OK so, the golfie trails are up behind the golf course- riding there is fine, but there's been a fair bit of contention in the past with the golf club, mostly around parking but also about perceived inconsiderate riding (the parking is a real thing, the rest not so much)
So that fence jump is directly into their car park, which they're already ornery about.
I think the reaction's pretty ridiculous tbf, since basically it says "endear yourself to the locals" but requires insider local knowledge in the first place. I do think they should edit it out, just for the perception but it's nothing to get so screechy about imo.
Its still there just not on the front page
https://www.pinkbike.com/u/millwardmedia/blog/summer-is-coming-scotland-here-we-come.html
Yeah bloody bird and the English
Oh 😀 Scottish man on an ibis
Wish I could do that
I do love that all the racist shite is coming from one direction. do you guys forget I am english by birth? Lots of you showing a bit of anti scots racism by shouting racism so loudly and making comments about professionally offended and the like - when actually all those saying this was not wise to post this video are actually being pretty gentle and nuanced. But no - take it as an opportunity to kick me and tar all scots on the basis of your predjudices not on what was said! Utterly absurd
And yes -dangerousbrain - I have seen quite a few folk posting on here over the years that have come up from down south and ridden like dicks simply because they do not understand the access laws.
How the fek do you know where they came from ?
tjagain
Thats why the anger.We get a bit of this from English riders
thinking they can do what they wan’t. Well you cannot
tjagain
Maybe not but I have also seen this a few times –riders from England misunderstanding our rights
– and two wrongs don’t make a right
It would be nice if the don't be a dick mantra carried over to forums 🙂
Sorry, my formatting is awful
nonk
Member
How the fek do you know where they came from ?
Because they said so!
so Just occasionally anecdotal evidence then that suits a prejudice you hold
Whats your point Del? that is a statement of fact. I have seen on many occasions and this is one, riders from England not understanding our access laws and / or local sensitivities
Just seems a bit ironic that people are having a pop at bird cycles then saying it’s “outsiders” not behaving responsibly when a local EWS rider post up exactly the same thing months before and no one says a word. Is inners becoming inners vasey, local trails for local people. We want no trouble here, eh tups.
ridden like dicks simply because they do not understand the access laws.
I'll stick my neck out here and suggest you're genuinely wrong. They ride like dicks because they're dicks, they do it here too, riding busy footpaths at mid day on a sunny BH and getting shouty at walkers about it and so on. Its not they don't know or don't understand, it's that they don't care.
I'll assume, lacking proof otherwise, you're not a dick so think of it this way. In order to ride /act like a dick would you just happen to do it because you don't know the rules, or, would you have to make a conscious decision to do it? I really think its the latter. By and large the ways to keep the right side of rule 1 are the same UK wide, its not as if it's holding hands in public, it's "have a thought for others" and it's pretty universal.
(I'll accept its possible for people to behave differently whilst doing different things but they behave the same all the time whilst doing the same thing IME, driving being a case in point, there are a lot of very normal sensible considerate people who cease to be as soon as they get behind the wheel of a car but they're the same every time they drive)
@Northwind, cheers for some background. I take it the carpark is public but used by the golf club. If it were private but being used under "access" laws I can understand the sensitivity. Regarding the trails if their established as mtb trails there's definitely a wiff of "local trails for local people" about the whole thing. Not saying thats a Scottish thing it happens everwhere. At least local to me there isn't a big brother is watching/judging you thing going on 🙁
P.s
The don't be a dick thing should apply everywhere, but who gets to decide the dick factor is the problem.