[Closed] Bikepacking and comfort

To me that doesn't seem comfortable. I'm not saying it isn't. If you find that comfortable then that is great and it works for you, so it must be otherwise you wouldn't do it.

Where as I am happy to carry more weight, I like more space in a tent and want a few more comforts. Even if I carry stuff I don't use. Your whole sleeping set up is much lighter than just my tent. I could go a lot lighter, but to me carrying an extra few kilos of kit on the bike is no big deal.

I'm not saying your setup is wrong, it just wouldn't work for me. I don't do any racing like you do, so that is maybe one of the reasons I'm not bothered about the weight.

I sometimes wish I could try and do light weight setup like you do, as I find these lightweight bikepacking interesting, but I don't think I would enjoy it.

Thanks Whitestone. I found that very useful as someone contemplating doing more of this. Clearly, a lot of kit choices are very personal but it's great to see what is achievable for some. What's FAK?

Besides anything else, I'd be concerned about just having a single 750ml water bottle, I went through 1.5l in under two hours on a steady-moderate ride in ~31C midday sun just under a month ago.

If you have the space, some 1-1.2l squash bottles fit nicely in bottle cages.

Its amusing - I think you are a similar age to me and I think I tend to do weeks rather than overnights but that is no way comfy for me. Different strokes and all that. Nothing to read? No back up navigation? No first aid kit?

This is the rig we took on our latest tour. That was for 2 weeks intending to be mainly wild camping. I am sure you will think of it as excessive in the extreme 🙂 Quite honestly it probably was but this was a trial run for a 3 month european tour

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by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr

We even had a pair of hiking boots each on board - because we wanted to do some walking ( that will not be done again - better solution needed)

Even for a single night out a complete change of clothing is essential for me and for weeks then at least 3 sets of cycling kit. Do you really put the same cycling shorts on day after day without washing them? 3 is one to wear, one to wash and one for tomorrow. I also want a complete change in case of getting soaked and something halfway respectable to wear in the pub. Lycra in the pub is a big no no to me.

I also want something nice and warm to wear - hence my insulated jacket. also a full set of waterproofs is ( the ones we have) a kilo and hard to get below 700g. Being without waterproof trousers on the trip would have made for some miserable days. I like to be warm and dry

I also want ( because we are out for weeks at a time) proper cooking kit so I can have my bacon rolls in the morning, good coffee and ability to cook a proper meal from scratch and from fresh

A quilt is no use to me - I am an active sleeper. I have to have a bag.

I want a full midge proof thing to sleep in. We do have a trekkertent that is 1.2 kilos and is huge.

What do you do if attacked by midge death? A lot of rain? the huge trekkertent or the lightwave we had on this trip has a huge extended porch for getting in and out of the waterproofs without getting your sleeping compartment wet and both of us can sit up in it.

Food is a kilo a day per person - and in that pic we are carrying 3+ days food.

Evan at its most minimal our kit comes to around 14 kilos between us before food.

Real luxuries are the undertent foam - its 5 mm closed cell foam that acts as a groundsheet protector. 200 g more than a basic one. We also have chairs I need back support when sitting - 150 g each again essential for comfort when spending 5 hours sitting watching for wildlife

Bob's set up is always good! The shelter/sleeping arrangement is fine for him as a warm sleeper. I'm a cold sleeper and on a relaxed on longer trip take the 350 cumulus quilt, trekker tent stealth, and either a full length or 3/4 thermarest. For 'racing' overnighters (e.g. Braunton 150, lakeland 200), I swap the tent for a Rab bivi and don't bother with a tarp - that puts me under 1500g with a warmer bag, and I've woken up in that set up with a coating of frost on the outside of the bivi and frozen bottles and been fine. I cook on gas for convenience, but don't take cooking gear when going fast (attempting to at least) and light.

Riding with a light set up is way more fun, and more like 'normal' mountain biking, which for me is the appeal, hence trying to keep a dropper post for most rides which have good singletrack (including HT550 and LL200). I find a very small seatpack and a small rucksack more fun for most rides, rather than a big seatbag and no pack, although this varies depending on likely technical sections and proportion of expected hike-a-bike (if there is a lot of good riding and/or hike-bike, I'll put relatively more weight on me rather than the bike).

It is costly to get a good, light, set up but there are bargains out there - trekkertent stuff, cumulus bags etc. and you don't need the best kit to get out there and have fun.

TJ - your set up looks super comfortable for a relaxed long tour on reasonable surfaces and I understand your choices (last time I went touring with a couple of not really cycling friends we took board games!) , but I wouldn't fancy it much for anything that resembled technical mountain biking!

The following is what I’d expect to take on a bikepacking trip in the UK

what distances and typical surfaces/terrain (by largest percentage first?)

I don't think 14kg is bad for 2 people.

I think ours was ~15kg (prob a bit over how much not sure) with no food, 1-2 week trips where we would be touristy as well as just pedaling.

Could do less but at fair expense. It's not something we do very often (not at all now) so it would be expensive to us as even the stuff we have had been built up over time.

I appreciate save up and buy once but there is also the converse case of get the stuff cheap and do it now when the opportunity is there which is how it has been for us.

Also has to be a decent size tent for us. I have done the Bivi bag thing for one night trips on my own and it's ok down south in the dry but wouldn't fancy in the rain for multiple nights.

Its fine downhill! This was a road and gravel tour tho not MTBing. Its actually not as excessive as it looks - the bag on top of the trailer only weights 500g and its total volume less than 2 big and 4 small panniers. I didn't weigh it this time but on a previous tour IIRC the luggage including the weights of the bags and trailer came to around 40 kilos! I suspect rather more this time.

The one thing I really do not get is the cooking. For example we use less than 50 g of gas a day for two and I want quick easy proper cooking. I can make a pot of coffee in a literal 2 mins

Malvern rider - Whitestone is complete nails - I have met him in the wilds of fisherfeild halfway up a hike a bike climb!

Bobs set up looks pretty comfy to me.

At least for a couple of nights.

TJs set up looks horrendous, not that it matters as it works for him.

^^ 🤣. Gottit. Thnks.

I was just musing/thinking out silently ‘trailer vs no trailer?’

Am thinking of a COHO XC for own use vs lots of expensive framebaggery as it would double as grocery/cargo carrier

PIemonster - as above it was a trial run for a 3 month european tour. But yes - needs to be slimmed down. But its not as huge as it looks - its only the same as two big and 4 small panniers

But I need to be able to cook properly and I need changes of clothing so I have fresh cycling shorts each day and something halfway decent to go to the pub in. I need to be able to carry several days food. Remember its not just a night or two - its for weeks on end.

YOu make the compromises you make. When we had 3 days of rain and gales i was mightly glad to have a robust 3 season tent, a full set of waterproofs and the ability to sit in warmth and comfort in the evenings

Bikepacking and comfort

I think this should be bikepacking: lightweight vs comfort

@slowpuncheur - FAK = First Aid Kit

@noddyoftthegoat - you might have missed the water filter. But it does depend on the area and water supply. On the YD300 a month ago I took a Camelbak Lobo with 3 litres in it so I could get between watering points - just a case of being adaptable. A rolled up Platypus or Camelbak bladder is another option.

@tjagain - I knew you'd bite! Yes to wearing the same cycling clothing day after day - went five days on the HT550 without saddle sores. (I might have smelt a bit but everyone was too nice to mention it!). From memory I was going with one set for the French Divide as well. If my cycling kit gets wet, so what? Wring it out, put it on the next day and get on with it. If it's going to be midgey then we'd take the Big Agnes tent which is 1500g with groundsheet and splits pretty evenly between two so 750g as mentioned. Included in the list is a PHD down jacket. As Ian notes, I'm a warm sleeper so have the advantage of being able to choose lighter bag/quilt but that doesn't mean taking an arctic rated bag everywhere.

@Malvern Rider - mostly off-road hence "bikepacking" not "bike touring", say 60-70% depending on area and choice of route, wouldn't be super technical, trail centre red at most. Distances would be 90km or so per day depending on elevation gain, weather, time in pub.

Generally I don't try and replicate what I'd do at home - so no full kitchen for example.

I think this should be bikepacking: lightweight and comfort

FTFY 😊

Malvernrider - a trailer is good if you cannot get all your kit in basic bikepacking bags and its much better for handling and wind resistance than panniers or too much tied on all over the bike. IMO either go very light whitestone style and enjoy the riding more or go comfy and accept the compromised uphills. I see less value in a trailer if its just one person - a lot of parasitic weight in the trailer

Whitestone - I thought you would like the pic! Do you spend weeks out with that light a kit? Where do you put the cake? ( hint - the rack bag is for cake on our setup! )

5 days in one set of cycling kit? You manky bugger! Mrs TJ is sitting just a couple of feet behind me - I think she would complain! Putting on wet kit the next day - hardly comfy that you masochist!

TJ, out of interest it looks like you have attached a pannier bag on the back of your trailer. How have you done that, is it some sort of custom rack mounted to trailer, or is it just held in place with bungee cord?

And what type of camping chair do you take?

Where do you put the cake?

In my stomach before my wife gets to it of course!

Do you spend weeks out with that light a kit?

When we tried the French Divide and then failing (mixture of weather - 40C and CBA) we ended up riding through Brittany for nine days with that setup plus a bit as we'd clothing to get to and from the start of the route. Might have had a gas stove rather than the meths stove as well. Here's the setup:

One thing about cost: when I started bikepacking it was about the time quite a bit of my existing camping gear was needing replacing so getting lightweight stuff wasn't excessive.

TJ - the HT550 is a "race' so slightly different mindset. For a tour beyond three days I'd have a second set of kit.

Here's my setup from this last weekend - three days/two nights in mid-Wales. We had one meal in the pub, otherwise all trail food and meals are packed.

Hard to see but the bag on the front is almost the width of the bars as I'd got hammock and ground sleeping gear in there -

The small panniers on the trailer are ortleib classic fronts so quite small. I modified a rack to sit about 4 inch lower than usual and have that on the back of the trailer so they just clip on and off but the weight actually rests on the trailer not the rack.

Chairs are like these but lighter - maybe no longer made? Very comfy. 150 g each the ones we have.

THERMAREST.COM "https://www.thermarest.com/ie/seating/chair-kits/trekker-chair/trekker-chair.html"

“bikepacking” not “bike touring”

Sorry to bite on this but it really winds me up!

I know what people are trying to say with "bike packing" but really bike packing is a subset of bike touring.

It only becomes different when people choose to define touring as being heavy weight / slow / not off road / the negative of whatever they define bike packing as. In reality bike touring always had these subsets and intersection of subsets, but of course as a subsets! There has always been lightweight tourers, tourers off road, tourer not using panniers or not primarily using panniers, fast and focused tours rather than meandering tours.

Bike packing still still holds the same niche as you wish it to but it's the wanting to not be a subset of touring that strike me as marketing bull trying to distance it's self from for image purpose only.

@The Brick - sorry. I use the term for off-road touring simply to distinguish it from on-road touring because that's what it is to me. Of course some people use bikepacking for both on and off-road and some people use bike touring for both.

You could also differentiate things by the panniers/soft bag divide but then I've seen setups use both, in fact TJ's tandem & trailer combo does just that.

otherwise all trail food and meals are packed.

3000+ calories a day / a kilo a day?

To me bikepacking is a subset of bike touring using minimalist setups. So I am touring Whitestone is bikepacking

I do like to steal the best ideas from the bikepackers tho - and the usual tandem touring setup is to carry about 50% more than we do or more - a trailer and 4 panniers is common. or 4 huge panniers plus huge rackbag and bar bag.

Again with the personal preferences I cannot stand anything on the bars / forks and the trailer is more aero than panniers by a long way and handles much better than a similar weight / volume on the bike

We did get up to 50 mph ish downhill with that rig 🙂

My set up for off road bikepacking is very similar to Whitestone's with the addition of a lightweight tent, maybe an extra layer and some flip-flops/spare socks. I've done trips up to a week in this style and I sleep well, eat well and have rarely if ever been cold.

I think it's a bit of a myth that going light requires discomfort. Obviously you can go so light that you compromise on comfort but with a bit of thought and a bit of spend that needn't be the case.

My set ups similar to Whitestone and it’s pretty comfy. I’m no racer though. Comfort is warm, dry and fed!

No one seems to be considering comfort while riding. I apply my Bealach na Bà test to equipment selection; how much pain will this be to lug up a big hill?

Unfortunately Colin, Bealach na Ba is 414 miles from home so somewhat impractical to use that as a test for any given setup. 😊

@spin - the trick with going light isn't to cut back on everything but to know where your weaknesses are so you can reduce everything else whilst pampering them! The thing to avoid is: "I want, I want, ..."

@tjagain - the old military mantra was: 2 pounds provisions per man per day. That included fuel to cook the food and the packaging*. Call it a kilo/man/day. Carbs and protein are 4Kcal/gram, fat is 9kcal/gram. Guessing at an average of 10% fat for foodstuffs you have roughly 4.5kcal/gram which means 220g for every 1000kcal needed.

For long distance, properly remote, routes I'd seriously consider a trailer, much the best for that job. Dovebiker has posted shots of his setup for the Rovaniemi 300 which is four or five days in the arctic - a mixture of soft bags and panniers to handle mostly the bulk of the kit. But neither of those situations really apply to the UK unless you willfully avoid any form of resupply.

*If I take dehydrated meals I'll repackage them into pour & store bags mainly to save bulk, the actual packaging is pretty light anyway but it's designed to withstand the rigours of the retail supply chain and customers handling it in-store and to give a long shelf life. If you are using them within a few days they aren't going to need that level of protection.

On food - the best I can while remaining palatable for my 3000+ calories a day is around 800-900 grammes. Thats almost everything without any water. 4.5 calories a gramme is optimistic 3.5 is closer

I apply my Bealach na Bà test to equipment selection; how much pain will this be to lug up a big hill?

We got up pretty much everything but boy it was slow on very low gearing. So I guess fails that test.

Doing the multi-day bike hire, I'd often be asked how long a route would take. My first response would be a question; "do you want a cycling holiday, or a holiday on a bike?" That's sort of reflected in the approaches we see here. If it's a holiday with a bike, then the method of transport is less important than seeing places, stopping, looking around, the camping and the cooking. Comfort while stopped is a key ingredient. A cycling holiday focuses more on the actual pedalling, still enjoying all the sightseeing etc but not quite so much emphasis on the camping bit. In that case, it's more important to be lugging less weight so the pedalling is more fun and, if desired, greater distances can be covered.

Of course, it's possible to fall somewhere in the middle too.

This was my set up for a night away last weekend:

[img]

And this is what was in the bar and seat bags:

[img]

Alpkit Soloist tent, Cloud Base mat & Cloud Cover quilt.
Sea to Summit pillow.
Fleece sleeping bag liner.
Planet-X X2 cook system.
Microfibre towel.
Head torch & USB lantern.
Patagonia Nano Puff jacket (not in photo as I was wearing it).
Thermal top & long johns.
T-shirt & trousers.
Waterproof jacket.
Undies & socks.
Warm hat.
Buff.
Wet wipes.

I also had 1st aid kit, power bank, snack bars, bike lights, tea bags, coffee and 2x Wayfayrer meals in the top tube and frame bags and multitool, Leatherman, zip ties, hand sanitiser gel, face masks, phone, specs and Jelly Babies in my waist pack.

Like Marin my comfort is related to being warm, dry and fed.

Good explanation scotroutes

My bike is a tool to take me places

Malvern rider ..I've seen you mention the Coho XC a couple of times. I've no idea if it's a one off but on cyclingabout website there's an article on trailers including the Coho . In the comments a guy says ..in his own words " It's a total POS" and lists numerous issues . Just a heads up.

Good explanation scotroutes

My bike is a tool to take me places

The other thing to remember is that huge rig was a trial run for months of touring. Compromises acceptable for a day or two are not when its weeks and months ie cooking kit. I want to be able to cook the fresh seafood I canbuy - try cooking langustines in your ti mug or a couple of nice fresh fillets

Thnks Kaiser appreciated. Will take a closer look

I pack what i think i need then start hoiking it all out to get more wine in.