@ shooterman, I don't understand why they cant supply you with a frame the correct size, that you suggested, but they overruled?
Surely then it would be a straight swap and no refund issues? Oh and I'd be pushing for a refund of the courier costs, given the frame size was their suggestion.
Have relations been "fraught" already, leading to a loss of goodwill?
What’s the betting the shop is waiting for the returned bike to sell before giving the refund?
What’s the betting the shop is waiting for the returned bike to sell before giving the refund
That would be my guess.
This is shaping up nicely to be another Ling thread, just without Ling 🙁
Unless you're under about 5ft 5", you should have 172.5mm cranks for an MTB (I'm generalising here, but I doubt you need 170mm cranks). And your legs can't be that short if you had a 19.5" frame before.
This is so wrong. Many MTBers are riding far longer cranks than they should. I’m 5’11 with long limbs, 34” inside leg. 170mm and 165mm cranks on my MTBs.
I see Leonard Zinn (quite the crank expert) recommends MTB cranks be 20-21% of your inside leg length.
OP. Like many I see an issue with how they have handled the new bike issues - not so much with the way they have managed your trade in. How they have not managed to sort component sizing issues or offer a different size, I am not sure - would seem like a no-brainer. As for the refund and return issue, that seems incompetent and dishonest to not pay you your money back promptly and the whole address malarkey too.
Oh and 34” inside leg and 165mm cranks on one bike, 175 on another.
I contact the shop who admit they no longer occupy those premises and are directing returns to an empty building.
At this point I would be camped inside the shop and not leaving until the refund was in my bank.
175mm on my mountain bike, the 17somethings on the roadbike just feel so small and twiddly.
Update. About half the money has been refunded to my card. Waiting on the rest in the next couple of days.
It is genuinely a pity I couldn't get something sorted with the shop as I'm now bikeless and trying to participate in the chub club!
The bike I bought was an Intense Recluse XL. I was happy to pay maybe a couple of hundred more to get a seatpost and cranks sorted but not the sort of money being suggested by the retailer. At £4700 - £5 I would be buying a Hightower C XE which I had demo'd and I knew would fit me.
I did suggest to the retailer perhaps a large Primer which I would have been happy to stick a longer stem on as it's more XC / trail but he didn't bite.
Lost a Sunday drawing up a grid of bikes and sizes trying to see what the retailer would have which would fit (based on bikes I had actually ridden and knew the geometry worked).
I had a feeling I knew what company you were dealing with and now the Intense Recluse has confirmed it. They were alright a year or two ago but since they changed their name and updated the website it has gone downhill.
It looks like they might be struggling and the service has definitely gone suffered, probably taken on too much stock and are struggling to pay bills.
Yep. I think Intense going consumer direct so soon after that retailer bought so much of their stock may have caused major problems.
My mate has just been messed about purchasing an intense frame from an online retailer. Do they begin with a B?
[quote="chiefgrooveguru"]I see Leonard Zinn (quite the crank expert) recommends MTB cranks be 20-21% of your inside leg length.Which is also 10 + years out of date. But then, he sells cranks.
russyh - no.
Again today emailed retailer saying it was regrettable that we couldn't get an alternative bike sorted given the theft of mine. Again, not a peep.
On the crank thing. I have long suffered with a bad lower back and would get pain in my hip and low back about an hour into a ride. The car journey home would also tend to be uncomfortable.
Shortening the crank and fitting a dropper post sorted that out overnight. I think it was being able to change my riding position during a ride possibly. That's the main reason I was so neurotic about fit being right and prompted the long telephone conversation with the retailer about size concerns.
Name and shame time 😳
Hypnonewt has already guessed it.
Providing you get all your money back, I think you've had a lucky escape by not getting the Recluse. I was looking into them last year, but they pretty universally got criticism for the performance of the rear suspension and it not being compliant and getting hung up on larger rocks and roots, they're not supposed to be the most stable at speed and the Fox 36 forks with the grip damper are much harsher than the higher models with the fit dampers. You're paying for the extra travel (in money and weight), but it's going to feel more like a shorter travel bike. It's probably telling that Intense UK aren't bringing in the Recluse for 2018 and some of the shops I spoke to found they didn't sell well and discounted them in the summer to get rid of the stock.
As you've found out they've also got long seat tube. At 5'9 I would have wanted a large for the reach, but the seat tube was too tall to run a 150mm dropper. As a comparison, the seat tube lengths for size XLs are as follows:
Recluse 515 mm
Tracer 485 mm
Carbine 483 mm
Intense have really dropped their prices recently, so I'd be looking at a Tracer if you want 27.5
https://uk.intensecycles.com/collections/tracer
Or a Carbine if you want a 29er. They both share the same suspension linkage and I've got a Carbine and find it's really plush, but pedals well.
Gachet cheers. Had been thinking of the primer as an alternative. Aren't the carbine and tracer really almost mini dh bikes though?
I've guessed who the shop is to. They've got loads of top end Intense bikes at full retail prices before Intense went direct, meaning that some are £2200 overpriced!
When I was looking at a Recluse, they wouldn't budge on price on a £4K bike if I bought it direct from the shop, even though they had it on eBay for £4K or best offer, so they were quite happy to lose £300+ in fees and postage if someone hit the buy it now!
Yep bonkers. They've lost my sale and then missed two further opportunities to sell me a bike. No wonder Intense went consumer direct!
I wouldn't say they're mini DH, they're both classified as Enduro so the Tracer is equivalent to a Santa Cruz Nomad/YT Capra/Evil Calling/Yet SB6 and the Carbine to a Hightower LT/Trek Slash/Evil Wreckoning/Yeti SB5.5. I haven't ridden my Carbine much due to the terrible weather, but it seems fine on a normal ride. I wanted something that was going to be plush and stable at speed as I'd had a few spills on an older twitcher full sus in the summer.
The Tracer is only a bit longer travel and heavier than the Recluse. I do like the look of the Primer, but I thought it was going to be a bit short travel. There's loads of reviews online for all three so it's worth doing some research.
Intense also offer a 30 day satisfaction guarantee now, so it's a fairly low risk way of buying a bike.
TBH at this stage I've been put off intense. Looking like a Hightower at the moment. The Santa Cruz dealers I've spoken to seem to have their act together.
I'd probably get the Hightower LT if I was you as it was on my shortlist, but I wanted XX1 Eagle and Carbon rims and it was going to be way too expensive as no-one tends to discount them.
Here's one of the reviews I came across when researching:
http://enduro-mtb.com/en/santa-cruz-hightower-lt-review/
There's also a chap on YouTube called Ben Cathro who has recently filmed the build on his and it looks great.
That's very good of you Gachet! The stolen bike was a Blur LT and to be honest I was just looking for an updated version. That's why I was tempted by the Recluse but a test ride on a Hightower sold me on 29ers.
If you're worried about the Tracer being a miniDH, I would stick with the normal Hightower rather than the LT.
4 people I ride with have them and it's boosted the speed of all of them. Just a great bike.
ukbk were doing 20% off at Black Friday, so give them a call, they might be willing to deal.
I agree Alex.
When I test rode it I just couldn't believe the speed. Really beefy feeling bike too which really inspired confidence. Not a fan of the rock shox rear shock though. Felt very wallowy coming off an RP23. There were more pedal strikes than I would have liked but I put that down to the demo bike not being personalised for my weight.
Email from retailer this morning confessing "cash flow problems" so they can't sort out the rest of my refund. I suggested they supply an alternative bike if they have no cash. They have no stock to supply me a bike from!
As I say I don't have an Intense dealer anywhere near me. Over a year ago I contacted the UK distributor, Saddleback, to discuss sizing and model availability. That didn't end with me buying an Intense. I have been saving steadily. Looking at a Hightower.
So I'm at my desk one afternoon and the UK distributor texts me out of the blue pointing me to this retailer who has discounts. A few texts back and forth with Saddleback seeking assurances as to the retailer's bona fides as I hadn't dealt with them before. I got those assurances from Saddleback.
Given the situation I texted the guy in Saddleback today (perhaps they could supply the retailer with a bike to resolve the difficulties?). Not a peep.
Pity he hadn't stayed silent when he was lobbying me to buy a bike from this crowd who now have cash flow problems, no stock, owe me almost a grand and have cost me £300 in return expenses and left me without a bike! / rant over/
Have you contacted your bank to let them know whats going on? You mentioned that you bought it on CC to get some protection. Probably worth giving them a potted timeline before it all gets even worse.
You definitely need to do something as if they fold you will lose what's left and try sorting that one out if this is what's happened !
Given the situation I texted the guy in Saddleback today (perhaps they could supply the retailer with a bike to resolve the difficulties?). Not a peep.
If you are so quick to name and shame saddleback, why not the retailer?
what a nightmare, that is the last thing you want to hear from someone who owes you money!Email from retailer this morning confessing "cash flow problems"
I would definitely get on to the CC company. Does Section 75 even cover you in this instance (i.e. a refund)? Hopefully but IDK. Probably wouldn't cover the value of the trade-in if the retailer does go bust.Have you contacted your bank to let them know whats going on? You mentioned that you bought it on CC to get some protection.
I contacted my bank a few weeks ago. The difficulty is the £900 is for the trade in so may not be the CC issuers problem. That is to be paid by BACS.
Section 75 may cover me as the issuer may be liable for the full amount of the transaction but I'm not sure tbh. I discussed it with my bank and they weren't definitive in their response.
This whole story stinks, I feel for you.
Can you ask the bike shop for the crime reference number to check the validity of their original story?
I already have the crime reference.
I'm concerned that the break in happened in October / November and the retailer is saying the insurer still hasn't paid out. Take from that what you will.
Crap situation shooterman.
As I understood it, even if 1p of transaction is on CC, they take on all the responsibility.
I would get onto CC now, and Citizens Advice.
I would also be onto shop ASAP asking what they can do, and letting them know you are going to take very quick action.
I still can't discount that no matter how badly the retailer has behaved, they are telling the truth. In 2009 I had to close a business to cut my losses. It nearly melted my head. If everything is true then I have a degree of empathy with a small retailer in difficulties and making poor choices out of stress. I'm not saying that is the case here but I know what it's like to be in that position. Thinking clearly becomes a huge effort.
Saddleback, on the other hand, are in a much more comfortable position. They have twice lobbied me to buy from smaller retailers. To then turn around from your position of comfort and ignore the customer who is substantially out of pocket because of your recommendations and assurances is not on in my book.
Just had text from Saddleback. Fair play to them.
Gachet - Member
I'd probably get the Hightower LT if I was you as it was on my shortlist, but I wanted XX1 Eagle and Carbon rims and it was going to be way too expensive as no-one tends to discount them
I got 20% off a brand new Hightower LT from ubyk just before xmas in their Black Friday sale
If you were a premier subscriber you’d get 10% off all year round on everything at Ubyk 😉
Saddleback are riding your old bike 😉
If the trade-in was part of the one transaction and was given a cash value within it, Section 75 should apply.
Probably cleaner to deal through them on the assumption that the rest of the money is never going to show up, and you'll have bugger all chance of recovering it from the retailer as and when he goes under.
Must admit I figured this was the case when the bloke refunded you in part.
Just off the phone to my bank. Looks like a long night of typing out the S 75 claim ahead. Still no definitive answer though.
Just had a long chat with Saddleback. I retract my rant!
Can't say too much but they filled me in extensively. Went far beyond what they had to tell me so I was properly informed about what was going on and in making my choice about how to move forward.
Top blokes.
Good news.
Excellent OP.
What happened then OP?. Or out of court settlement as it were
Update and huge respect to Oli from Saddleback.
The retailer, UK Cycle Switch, hadn't replied to my last email sent last week. Oli went into their shop today. I don't know what that dude said to them but there is now another £900 in my bank account!
I'm still down dosh for various things (eg £146 return postage because they messed about arranging the return etc) but I'm just going to have to write that off.
Oli, being the gent he is, even offered to take the hit for the outstanding monies if I bought direct. I turned that very kind offer down as that wasn't my agenda.
So, I'm about £300 down overall. I've missed all the Black Friday and January sale deals and, to be honest, I'm a bit bruised by the whole experience. I won't be buying a bike any time soon as I will now be paying far more than I would have if they had refunded me within the 14 days they are required to.
I have to say I have found the behaviour of UK Cycle Switch sickening. It's put me off the sport to an extent.
It's put me off the sport to an extent.
Really?
How do you cope with the rest of life?
How do you cope with the rest of life?
By avoiding people like Cycle Switch and you Tom.
Staying indoors. Gotchya.
(Is it too late to retract the advice i gave you on page 1, 4th reply, or has the moment passed?)
What I mean is, unfortunate things happen all the time. You were caught up in it this time, and your response to that is to never ride again? Even after saddleback went above and beyond for you? Does that not redress the balance?
No, That is not what I'm saying. That is how I'm feeling at the moment. I'm finding it hard to summon the mojo to start hunting for a bike again. Due to the trade in situation, I haven't been riding for a few months and the cycling habit has been temporarily broken.
This all happened at a fairly stressy time. On the Saturday I bought the bike on the phone my 12 year old son ended up having emergency surgery ( we were originally told he just had an infection). Having to disclose to my better half that I had possibly been conned out of £4k wasn't the best of moments either.
I will go back and have a look at your post Tom.
Don't let one bad experience with a bike shop put you off. There are still probably plenty of deals out there - just buy from a retailer with a strong reputation.
Personally I haven't read a lot of great stuff about Intense bikes in general but I don't have any personal experience so I can't add any value.
All I know is there are some brilliant companies out there in the world of bikes who'd love to help you with a great bike and great service.
It is hard to get motivated to ride in Winter anyway, especially after being off the bike for so long. Maybe wait until Spring when the trails look a bit more tempting.
Thanks folks. Just glad I managed to recover most of it.
Tom, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the trade in thing. I'm not sure it's as cut and dried as the retailer having bought my bike.
One view is that the traded in bike was a security for the balance of the purchase price in the context of the distance selling regs. Another view would be that a bailment arises. I would also distinguish it from trading in a car which is a face to face transaction.
At some point the other side of the story has to come out & I don’t think it will end well, nearly £150 to post a bike, really, did you book a cab?
Ps I hope your son is now ok.
If you add enough insurance cover for a 4K bike and don’t have an account with a courier then it will cost a lot to send.
Cheer up mate, there will always be bargains on bikes and nobody's lost a limb.
Take your time, do some demos and learn a bit more about what you like/need in a bike.
The insurance pushed the cost up. Even at that parcelforce were only insuring it for £2k. Have an online receipt to prove.
Thanks for the good wishes folks.
Lad is recovering well. He and we got a shock. Surgeon went from infection to surgery needed immediately in about 30 seconds! So quick he went to theatre in his own clothes.
Glad your lad s doing well
So quick he went to theatre in his own clothes
I hope he had clean underpants on.
I once went to the theatre in my own clothes, worst Rocky Horror Show EVAR!
OP: I am glad you got most of your cash back.
I would say however go and book some test rides - it will get you out on some nice shiny bits of kit in the better weather.
I have recently started to ride a bit more; redress the work, life and parenting balance and feel a lot better for it. I am not buying at your level (I have a Bfe), but am loving being out and about, even in this winter slop.
As people have said above, there are often deals on and some really are quite amazing value. Keep searching and keep your mojo up.
Pleased that things are starting to come back for you, bummer it is not everything. Just seems such an odd situation.
Get out and ride - life is to short to think that this would get in the way of what you want to do, what is good for you and a great way of spending time. Like borrow a bike this weekend. Post a pic.
I confess I'm fairly local to Worcester but I've never heard of this 'Cycle Switch UK' or whatever. Sounds shit just from the name.
Its easy to say with hindsight, but you'd have been far better off selling privately and going with an online direct sales retailer. Or, asking for advice about mainland shops that are worth the travel (I could have given you a hand full alone) and taking a day trip. For the money you've spent on couriers you could have taken the ferry as a foot passenger, got a train, got a bike, train and ferry back and had plenty of change.
Glad to hear you've got it sorted, but buying a bike should never be this complicated and while the shop has certainly behaved appallingly (and its very good to know who they are now), I don't know anyone who would have said doing it this way was a good idea.
Just buy a bike, ride bike. Easy.
@Gribble and Matt. Kind words very much appreciated.
@andydowdall. Good advice. I might take a couple of days in Spring to shoot across to Stif and see what other demos are available in the area.