Here's the abridged narrative:
My bike was traded in against a new bike. The new bike didn't fit and had to go back. After weeks of asking where my old bike was, the retailer (who still hasn't refunded me the £4k I've paid him) admitted my bike had been stolen weeks previously.
Has anyone been in a similar situation? How did you get it resolved?
The retailer won't tell me what the insurers paid him for it. Trade in value was less than market value and there's no way I can replace the bike for the trade in value with a similar second hand bike.
Surely no different to your bike being sold, which is why it was accepted as a trade in I imagine.
The fact it has been stolen seems irrelevant.
Why is he not supplying a bike in the correct size rather than refunding?
These are separate issues.
Your bike was sold to him for a price. He could have sold it or whatever, it's gone.
You then used the money, plus more to buy a bike. That isn't up to scratch so you need to get a new one off them or a full refund of what you paid (including the money from the bike you sold him).
was this an immediate thing - arrived at shop; you sat on it; "doesn't fit"; "OK, we'll swap it"The new bike didn't fit and had to go back
If you've ridden it more than round a car park and then decided it doesn't fit, it comes down to "more details needed"
His bike was stolen. Sucks to be him.
You bought a bike from him, it’s the wrong size. I *think* you either need one the right size or a refund. But wouldn’t be surprised if you were (legally at least) only entitled to the not fitting bike, that you bought.
Edit: as above, depends at what stage you decided it didn’t fit, and the conditions of the sale.
Onzadog - a swapped dropper and shorter cranks would have sorted it but he wanted nearly full retail on the replacements so another £700. £4k bike was becoming a £4700 bike.
To complicate it I'm an odd shape and right on the border of frame sizes. The smaller frame size top tube would be too short.
CSB - I didn't sell him anything. Payment was in the form of money and a trade in. The transaction was online. Until I'm satisfied with the goods he has provided he is only a bailee in respect of my bike. He has possession but not title.
Is that correct ? If you're within the limit for return of online goods (UNUSED), then maybe. You seem pretty certain, so fingers crossedUntil I'm satisfied with the goods he has provided he is only a bailee in respect of my bike. He has possession but not title
Well he's lost the bike you 'sold' him so (if he accepts the refund principle) he owes you the amount he agreed to pay for it.
I've no idea if your correct with this bailee thing. I'll take your word that you are. But what size bike did you request from the dealer ? Was that correctly supplied and in the appropriate condition?
Distance selling aside are bike shops responsible for people buying bikes that the buyer then feels is the wrong size.
Thanks for the replies. I've concluded I'm perhaps being a little harsh on the shop.
The refund is being sorted. The issue was people's experience of having bike stolen or destroyed whilst in a shop.
Take the 4k bike. Buy new cranks and shorter dropper. Sell old ones. Live with the (small) hit.
Pretty sure that changing cranks and dropper would be well outside the "changing stuff to get it to fit" deal that most dealers do (Usually just stem, saddle and maybe cassette on a brand new, not-yet-been-ridden bike, in my experience on both sides of the desk)
Oh. And the only people I know who have had bikes stolen from shops have been treated very well.
Both the shops gave them an "at cost" build to the insurance value.
The refund is being sorted. The issue was people's experience of having bike stolen or destroyed whilst in a shop.
As a refund is on the way it should include the trade in value agreed plus the balance paid. I.e £500 trade in plus £3,500 balance.
Ghostlymachine thanks for the reply. Given that the retailer operates on part exchange, I had hoped they would have a suitable second hand alternative they could offer.
Folks I've been buying bikes mail order for years. Needless to say I had a long chat with the retailer expressing my concerns that, on paper, the geometry didn't work. The size was recommended by the retailer.
The size was recommended by the retailer.
Not something I'd do with a mail order customer, who had concerns about size. I'd leave it to them to make that decision.
taxi - During the conversation I suggested I might be better just buying the larger size frame and custom building to ensure a good fit. The retailer wasn't competitive on the component prices so he knew I would spend £1500 on a frame or £4k on a full bike.
I'm not necessarily saying the size recommendation was connected to me suggesting that.
Not unknown for shops to try and sell what they have rather than what you need 🙁
If the new bike fit was spotted to be wrong promptly (many online stores offer 30 days IIRC), I would have thought that the bike shop either needs to offer you the same bike in correct size; let you choose another bike using the the cash balance you handed in with your old bike (possibly requiring you to either hand in more cash or for bike shop to give you a partial refund); or give you a full refund for all the cash you handed over with your old bike.
Once you traded it in, your old bike was no longer yours, what happens to it is no longer your concern.
What is your concern is the cash you paid along with the trade in, if the new bike isn't right and you have conformed to rules on returning the ill-fitting bike.
"Once you traded it in, your old bike was no longer yours, what happens to it is no longer your concern."
On what basis?
Once you traded it in, your old bike was no longer yours, what happens to it is no longer your concern."On what basis?
If the one you bought was stolen who would take the hit?
If you trade in a car and have a fault with the new one, its unlikely you'd get the old one back. They'll fix the new one or I imagine refund you the sale price if it got to that point.
You traded a bike and paid extra £ which meant you got a new bike. You are owed the sale price of the bike you bought and if he doesnt have your bike then it should all be in cash.
How long did you expect him to keep your bike before selling it on?
How long did you expect him to keep your bike before selling it on?
72 hours unreasonable?
Yes - unless you specifically agreed that he would keep it for a specific length of time so you could return the other bike and cancel the deal if you weren't happy.
Yep, my vote is you are only entitled to the trade in price back.
This is different to someone who had their bike stolen from a bike shop whilst it was in for servicing. You had effectively sold them your bike for an agreed price. If it was less than it was worth, that's your lookout for valuing your time over it's worth sold in a more effective way.
In what state did you return the new bike? Entirely unridden outside? Personally I take 100% responsibility for the fit of a bike bought remotely/online and would not trust anyone else’s judgement. I'm afraid I treat everyone who works in a bike shop at their lowest common denominator. Some I know are excellent but many (and I met a few when I worked in one) are definately not. I would definately not trust the advice of someone who had never met me to size me to a bike.
Could you not have bought a seatpost elsewhere and sold the one on the bike to reduce the cost? Where you aware of the crank length when you bought it?
In what state did you return the bike? Entirely unridden outside?
Yes. Unpacked and assembled in one of the living rooms.
Well at least that makes the return under distance selling regs or whatever it's call now simple.
Genuinely appreciate the different perspectives. Thanks to all.
new bike price was £4k, you get £4k refund and now have £4k to go and buy the right bike somewhere else, cash and can go some haggling. Sorted.
one of the living rooms.
Ooh get you...
Ooh get you...
I thought everyone with £4k bikes had at least 2 living rooms?
had at least 2 living rooms?
Living rooms are the new n+1 🙂
What living room for assembling 4K bike?
the one with the 4k TV obviously!
That’s handy for him, buys bike at leas than market value, bike is spirited away, cheque for full value arrives.
Just saying like. 😉
IMO you are entitled only to whatever figure he offered you for yours, what happened to it after it left your possession is nothing to do with you.
If he'd sold it and it snapped the frame 15 min later, would you have accepted the bike back?
I'm not a lawyer, but I think the operative thing here is "possession is nine-tenths of the law". You accepted a new bike, took it home, and assembled it (which is strange, because a shop would normally deliver it fully assembled), and handed over money and a used bike that both parties agreed were equal in value to the new bike.
However, there's a pretty good chance that your old bike was worth much more than the documented trade-in value and the seller or one of his mates wants to keep it, or has already stripped it for parts. Whatever the case, you aren't going to get it back. If the seller has agreed to accept your new bike back as a return, the obvious thing would be that they offer you an equivalent bike in a smaller size. Otherwise, they owe you the agreed value of the bike you bought (i.e. the sum of the money you gave them plus the agreed trade-in value of your old bike). I don't see how you have much choice but to accept either of those offers if they make them.
TBH, this whole thing doesn't really add up.
TBH, this whole thing doesn't really add up.
In what sense?
That bikes not been pinched, it's just worth more to him than he gave you for it, so it makes sense for the retailer to keep it and give you a new bike, as you pay retail and he pays cost price.
Snidey business though
In what sense?
1. The retailer didn't assemble the bike before delivery.
2. You returned the bike without getting either a refund or another new bike in exchange.
This seems strange behavior on the part of the retailer. Now, they have your money, your old bike, and you have nothing. Possession is nine tenths of the law, so now you are in the position of either accepting whatever they offer or taking legal action to get your money back.
When I say the bike wasn't assembled I just mean the handlebars, stem and wheels needed sorting. I didn't have to build from frame up.
I agree on the value differential. The retailer had a used bike similar to mine up for sale at the time I was browsing his website for my new bike. He had it on for almost twice the trade in he gave me.
Needless to say I wouldn't be thinking what I was thinking to start this thread if there hadn't been some snidey behaviour. The retailer agreed to refund me weeks ago and I'm still waiting on my money. A number of promised deadlines for refund have come and gone.
I did suggest some alternative bikes but he just didn't bite.
The return has cost me nearly £300 (Parcelforce etc) and the retailer has the returned bike back up for sale for the price he sold it to me. Goes without saying my patience has been burned through and my attitude is hardening. I was originally happy enough to absorb the £300, get a prompt refund and go buy another bike.
£300 to post a bike? Are you in a different country to the retailer? Otherwise that’s really expensive.
Postage was £145 fully insured. £95 to retailer for the the invisiframe he fitted to the bike and the rest in getting the bike packed by a shop etc.
Retailer tried to bill me £50 for return post. When I queried it he let slip his courier could have returned it for £50. Snidey in my view and part of the reason my position is hardening.
Letter before action time, IMO. The goods are back in the retailer's possession - you should have been refunded, particularly as the frame now has a nice invisiframe on it as a tempter for the next buyer.
How did you pay? Hopefully by credit card.
I made sure to pay at good chunk of it by CC for the Section 75 protection. I have already placed the transaction in dispute with my bank. The retailer has now told me three times he is refunding the money but nothing as yet has reached my account.
Going back to my original query I had hoped the retailer would have at least tried to sort me out with a decent deal on a replacement given what had happened to my own bike. I wondered if I was being naive.
The dominant view seems to be that the retailer owes me neither money nor goodwill.
The dominant view seems to be that the retailer owes me neither money nor goodwill.
As he's accepted the bike back he certainly owes you momey !!
A number of promised deadlines for refund have come and gone.
This is worrying and very poor 🙁
