[Closed] Loan Bike Returned Damaged - Did It Need Saying Beforehand?

If one of your colleagues took your road bike on loan for a week,

Pass me the tin opener and the can that says worms.

Kettle is on, choccie digestives today.

Doesn't matter who borrows it, the phrase "bend it you mend it" always applies.

Big boys rules...... you bend it you mend it.... or at least pay to get it mended !

There's a bit of a paradox in your question because you talk about his moral oblgations whilst asking, effectively, whether you should have made a contract of legal obligations in advance.

I think it unlikely you are going to sue your colleague so what you are really looking for is in endorsement of your view that he has a moral obligation to put you right. Which he does, obviously. One cannot just borrow someone else's stuff, return it in a complete state and then wander off whistling to themselves as if nothing had happened. We don't live in a World where a conversation about his duty to look after your stuff needed to have been had in advance. It goes without saying.

You bend it, you mend it.
But, I wouldn't lend one of my bikes to a colleague, who from the sound of it can't ride.

If the part is broken - i.e. is now faulty, then it should be replaced.

Scrapes in paintwork etc - tough luck really - accidents happen and if you don't want wear and ear, don't loan it out.

Stuff gets broken or worn when it gets used. I would think most people I lend things too would offer to repair or replace but it's certainly not a requirement.

I wouldn't dream of returning anything in a worse state than when I took it. In fact, if I'd borrowed something and noticed it not quite working right or damaged, I'd point it out and probably try to get it repaired as a 'thank you' for the loan. It would go without needing to be said for me. I didn't think to mention it beforehand and I wondered if it was just me or is it the unspoken accepted norm that you return something in at least the same condition as it was taken?

Apologies for the unintentional paradox. As above, I'm astonished that this person would appear to be oblivious to what [b]I[/b] considered to be his unspoken obligation but I thought to ask. He seems to think that falling off is quite funny apparently although I'm getting this second and third hand so things may well be lost in translation.

I'm preparing myself for an uncomfortable conversation at the very least but this is definitely a lesson learned.

Yes, return it better than you borrowed it. That might just be a good clean, but to hand something back a bit more broken would not be acceptable to me (both as a lender and borrower)

If you have a set of rules that you expect someone to follow then you need to tell them.

What has the borrower [b]actually said [/b]to you on the subject?

I wouldn't lend something I couldn't afford to replace. But I would never return something damaged either.

I think you need to tell him frankly what you need to happen.

I presume this is your boss so you had no choice but to loan it. Stuff loaned to management always get returned broken, that's what they do. To be a manager you have to be a user of other people, that's what they are.

Stuff loaned to other engineers usually come back in a better state than they went out.

Sadly, in order to continue in an organisation, you have to lend stuff to managers.

Whoever this person is - he is an arsehole.

To be a manager you have to be a user of other people, that's what they are.

So, so wrong. A manager without the welfare, dignity as their primary concern may be like this - but many are not. People with strong, positive ethics and values together with a high degree of integrity don't behave in that way. I feel very strongly about this.

"You want [i]how much[/i] for the repair?! I could literally buy an entire bike for half that price in Halfords!!"

I never lend anyone anything I care that much about for this same reason. Over the years I've loaned people fishing gear, camping gear, tools, bikes and bike gear etc and discovered that not everyone has the same approach to things as myself. Nowadays if I'm introducing someone to a new hobby, helping out a mate at last minute etc then they can have a borrow of some of my old/worn stuff that I have got newer/better replacements for. That way if it gets damaged or lost I don't really care. If they want or need better then they can go to a hire place.

Depends if it's just cosmetic or if he has caused damage that affects the functionality of the shifter.

Scratches and scrapes a just wear and tear I would expect if I loaned a bike. A scratch to a shifter whilst being a bit unsightly shouldn't effect its usibility requiring it to be replaced. If it was one of my bikes I'd be happy if I got an apology and an offer to replace the bar tape (I hate scruffy tape)

I definitely subscribe to the "bend it, mend it" mentality and would expect anyone I lent to do the same without having to define the terms up front. However cosmetic scratches on a bike happen and it would be ridiculous to expect to get a frame pro-repainted for that or to replace properly functioning parts. It's why I don't let anyone borrow my roadie, because I'd be a bit gutted if someone else scraped it.

The use of the phrase 'standard borrowing terms apply' implies that if you break it, you mend it.

tlab - Member
Depends if it's just cosmetic or if he has caused damage that affects the functionality of the shifter.

Scratches and scrapes a just wear and tear I would expect if I loaned a bike. A scratch to a shifter whilst being a bit unsightly shouldn't effect its usibility requiring it to be replaced. If it was one of my bikes I'd be happy if I got an apology and an offer to replace the bar tape (I hate scruffy tape)

Pretty much this. I'm not very precious about my bikes generally I am happy if they are being enjoyed.

If I had something fancy fancy I'd just not loan it out.

@jamj1974 I so wish you were right. Maybe I'm in the wrong industry.

If someones asks to borrow "bend it mend it" is the rule.

If you offer a bike as a loan, then you wear the risk unless you clearly state the rule.

Bloke at work lent a stump jumper to a colleague for husband to use in a charity ride. He warned this is a VERY expensive bike please look after it. She took note and used both of the household cable locks to attach it to their city centre flat railings, I think it was gone in 20 minutes. She was absolutely distraught and went to the Internet to replace it. Imagine her shock when her idea of a very expensive bike, over £250 turned out to be somewhat south of the mark.

Unless they're bike mates or good friends I think it's important to establish some sort of context, most people still think bikes cost £200.

Maybe your colleague is an anarchist, though he seems to have embraced the capitalist concept of a job. Otherwise we live in a society with a well defined concept of property, where you the basic requirement of a loan is that you return what you are loaned. Not a slightly inferior version, but the same thing you are loaned. This is not a concept which anybody adult should need explaining - even if they were horribly spoilt, the realities of school and then adult life should have made it clear. So no, there was no requirement for you to spell out such a basic principle in advance.

You colleague is an arse (if reported intentions are true)

...though it is clear just from this thread that some people seem to think slightly different rules apply to bikes. Admttedly when banks loan you money they do make it very clear in advance that they want all of their money back.

So you haven't seen the bike yet op? Or talked about the damage? Maybe do that before you get the Stw lynch mob shouting. You never know, it might already be fixed.

Admttedly when banks loan you money they do make it very clear in advance that they want all of their money back.

and then some!

OP, sounds like you're worrying before getting the bike back and chatting with your colleague. Best to chill out until you meet up. When your colleague sees the tears streaming down your face at any damage they'll probably get the message. That is if they haven't already delayed bringing it back so as to get it fixed.

Hope it works out well.

No, I haven't got the bike back yet nor seen the (if any) damage but does that mean I'm not allowed to ask if it's widely accepted that it goes without saying in advance that an item borrowed is returned in as good if not better state than it was taken? Aftrr all, a few conversations have taken place through one meduim or another to suggest something untoward has occured.
Thank you for the constructive replies even if they've not fallen in line with my own opinions.

TBH sometimes it should be said, sometimes you know it's understood. Key thing imo is to be able to expect, when you lend something, that it'll be used appropriately. With bikes, sometimes that means crashing.

I loaned my bike to a friend for a race, she brought it back minus a spoke, a saddle, and with a ripped open tyre. She was mortified, I just thought, that's what it's for. If I was afraid to have my bikes used, I wouldn't lend them but I wouldn't even ride them myself.

to put different perspective -- I rented a holiday house from my boss for a week; our car had to be replaced about a fortnight beforehand so no means of carting bikes down. I asked Neil if I could borrow his old but dependable Enduro while on holiday - not a problem.

Rode it a couple of days, third day felt a bit odd in rear wheel, tried to true the buckle then realised a spoke had ripped out and rim eyelet wasn't in good shape. Gingerly put it back, fessed up on my return, offered to pay for new wheel / rebuild. He politely declined, said it needed a service, then got a shock when the repair bill arrived - new wheel, shocks serviced (not me on that one) and generally some TLC needed..

If someones asks to borrow "bend it mend it" is the rule.

If you offer a bike as a loan, then you wear the risk unless you clearly state the rule.

I've always followed these rules.

one meduim or another

You have to loan stuff to a work manager? GTFO!(apologies for language but it is as ridiculous and outrageous as that)

What else do they have rights over? Wife? Firstborn child?

Are you a medieval serf?

Do your best to take it up with them directly and tell them it's not on, whilst raising a workplace grievance (unions etc, over their heads if necessary)that your working environment appears to be one of fear and disrespect.

One friend needed to borrow a bike for a ride so I lent him my superlight and I borrowed my wife's p7 despite repeated comments he rode like a cack handed insert a four letter world and kept locking the rear shock out on descents que cracked rear triangle . despite comments he made no attempt to contribute to the bargin replacement cost ( thanks Stiff and Jungle). Lesson learnt next time round I lent him my P7 older more battered than my wife's this time . He managed another cavk handed ride and ripped a pedal out stripping the crank thread ,this time I thought sod subtlety and sent him a photo of the replacement cranks in box with the price clearly displayed which he ignored . Needless to say he neither gets to borrow stuff or ride with us anymore.

TBH both of those sound like things that were on the way, they just happened on his watch.

"Lesson learnt"

"Next time round"

Obviously not, or there wouldn't have been a second time!

How's it go; fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

I baby my bikes so they don't get loaned. You bend it you buy it the rule since the age of 12, surely?

He took the bike on Wednesday. I hope to get it back tomorrow. Wear and tear? It's gone from immaculate to "damaged - you're not going to be happy" (I spoke to another cycling colleague who has seen it). That doesn't sound like wear and tear to me!
If I borrowed your car for a couple of days, brought it back with a big scratch down the side and the wing mirror smashed but you didn't say to me "You have to pay for any damage" before I'd taken it, you'd shrug off the damage and not expect me to pay? Really?
For the record because this is the kind of person I am, I'd have had it priced up at a body shop for the repair and let them know I'd be booking it in as soon as I'd spoken to the owner for a convenient date, paid the body shop in full and covered the cost of a hire car while it was in.
I'm feeling pretty fed up that my bike has been damaged. I'm hoping it's going to get fixed at the person who caused the damage's expense but it'll get repaired regardless of who pays. I'll not loan it out again and I am surprised that some people seem to think it [b]does[/b] need to be agreed beforehand.
Thanks again for the constructive comments regardless of the side of the fence they fell on.

Any reason you are unable to talk to him?

I have this rule. The rule is unwritten and unsaid. If people don't know the rule they dont get a loan of anything.

I don't loan anyone anything breakable or that I value, particularly not my bikes, actually there's only one good mate, who is a trained engineer, very mechanically sympathetic, and understands how things should be used that I'd loan to.

People think I'm selfish sometimes, they wouldn't say that when they get a £100 bill for parts.

Damage needs to be put right, wear and tear (scratches) is just unfortunate. I lent my race bike to a team mate and raced another. Crashes in races are very common (had one today!) so scratches to a shifter would be fair wear. Bar tape i'd expect to be replaced - it's not a big deal though.

But I'd expect someone to offer to make good, but I wouldn't be too precious.

I don't have his telephone number.
The bike doesn't get raced and it hasn't been loaned to race on. I wouldn't have let it go if it had. I'll not let it go again. You try to do a nice thing.
Much like the previous comment, I assumed it didn't need saying. In fact, I so assumed it, I didn't even think of it.

Are you pissed off that the bloke might not pay or just that the bike has been damaged at all?

If one of your colleagues took your road bike on loan for a week,

I only lend things to very good mates who understand the terms break it you bought it.

I am borrowing canoe gear from my boss this week - I offered that it was 'I break, i replace' when I asked.

I am lending one of my canoes to other folk on the river trip - again, the conversation included a 'you break it, you buy me another'.

Lender AND loaner be aware.

Both (if it comes to that). For both of us. Accidents happen. I get that. It's what happens next that will make the difference. My whole point was though, is it not taken for granted, not needed to be said that an item is returned in as good as condition as it was taken? I didn't even think to clarify it.

cyclepathologist - Member

My whole point was though, is it not taken for granted, not needed to be said that an item is returned in as good as condition as it was taken?

Not really though. It comes down to reasonable/fair usage and what you consider to be reasonable. To me, this is on the edge of that, but everyday use of a bike does include the risk of damage. If you borrowed my ming vase and broke it playing beer pong, I'd be raging, because it's not for beer pong. But if you borrow my bike and break it by riding it, that's what it's for, and I'd have considered that before ever lending it. If he broke it being careless- put it on a roofrack and drove into a height bar, or something- that'd be different again.

And that's why it's important to make sure both parties are on the same page. If I borrow a mate's bike, I'd personally expect to return it in the same condition, but I don't think that's a given; if I loan a bike and I expect it back in the same condition I will say so. But frankly, I wouldn't generally loan a bike under that condition- I'll loan things I don't mind getting scratched, I won't loan things that I do generally.

Just the fact that there's various conflicting opinions here probably tells the story clearly enough tbh

cyclepathologist - Member
My whole point was though, is it not taken for granted, not needed to be said that an item is returned in as good as condition as it was taken?

Once you've seen and discussed the bike with him I'm sure it will be fine.
You seem to like to blow hot air about this without any substance thus far.
Bloody speak to him and make sure you get it back in the nick he got it.
Don't keep going on and on about an outcome you are yet to have.

[quote=Northwind ]Just the fact that there's various conflicting opinions here probably tells the story clearly enough tbh

Who on here is suggesting that they would consider it reasonable to hand back a broken bike?

Though personally I'd consider crashing a bike and breaking it just as careless as driving into something with it on a roofrack - riding a bike is appropriate use, crashing one isn't. It breaking due to normal wear and tear JRA is a different matter, but that's not what we're talking here.

aracer - Member

riding a bike is appropriate use, crashing one isn't

I really struggle with this tbh. It's part and parcel of riding bikes.

Maybe, but if you crash a bike and break it you pay to get it fixed - that's part and parcel of it too. That's you the person crashing the bike. Seems pretty simple to me - I struggle to see how any other position can be justified.

As I wrote earlier, a very fundamental principle of a loan is that you give back what you were loaned.

We don't even know if there's anything to fix! OP talked about cosmetics and "possibly" the shifter. But then, this thread is mostly about assumptions isn't it.

It doesn't seem unreasonable for the OP to clarify what would be a reasonable position to take in advance of seeing the bike though, rather than having to react on the spot. If it's not damaged, then good.

But if you ride your own bike and break it, then you have to fix it in order to ride it again. You don't just leave it broken. If breaking a bike is part and parcel of riding it, then so is fixing it. That is why I would expect a loaned bike to be returned in the same shape as it was when it was lent.

flap_jack - Member
@jamj1974 I so wish you were right. Maybe I'm in the wrong industry.

You're not in the wrong industry chap. There are plenty of arseholes who do use people! You just don't have to be an arsehole because you are a manager.

"Once you've seen and discussed the bike with him I'm sure it will be fine.
You seem to like to blow hot air about this without any substance thus far.
Bloody speak to him and make sure you get it back in the nick he got it.
Don't keep going on and on about an outcome you are yet to have."

For the second time in this discussion (and you do rather seem to make quite a habit of it on this forum) you appear to be taking quite an aggressive stance. I suggest you seriously calm yourself down. Far from blowing hot air without any substance, it has been pretty conclusively established that some damage has been incurred. Furthermore, my quenstion to the forum was: Is it widely taken for granted that an item borrowed is returned in as good a condition as it was taken, even if this means costs are incurred for repair or replacement by the borrower or does it need to be agreed beforehand?

My absolute assumption was that it is unsaid. Clearly, a large portion either feel it should be said for clarity while others feel that it is either not the case at all, is dependant on the item and its use or have/had the same assumption as me. Then there is you, 'Iolo, wading in with your usual inflammatory, dismissive comments.

I have certainly learnt a valuable lesson from the constructive comments here and I am grateful for them. I will be sure to seek clarity and agree expectations in this and related matters should the situation arise in the future.

[i]"I really struggle with this tbh. It's part and parcel of riding bikes.[/i]"

This is a road bike. Crashing is not part and parcel of anything.

Even off-road, crashing [i]might[/i] be part and parcel of riding [i]one's own[/i] bike (for me it's not, but I know that doesn't apply to everyone; but then you can usually tell those people because if you were to borrow their bike it'd be pretty beaten up already) but it's [i]not[/i] part and parcel of borrowing other people's stuff unless, before you actually walk off into the sunset with it, you pipe up with "by the way, I'm planning on ragging the tits off this; you don't mind, do you?" Yes I do: give me my bike back, you bloody lunatic.

Firmly on the "hand it back at least as good as it was before" side of the fence here.

Give the man a phone call, just clarifying that you'll expect any damage to be fixed before it's returned. The he will know beore you see it - it m ight take an extra few days until you see it, though/

As noted earlier, I sadly don't have his telephone number. We'll have a chat when I collect it tomorrow. See how it goes. Accidents happen but how we resolve the situation is the key.

I have to say Im an old fashioned type and like to believe people have a similar morality to myself.

Most of the time Im glad to say that Ive not been let down but there have been occasions.

I say the above as Im like the OP to be honest. If I were to borrow something (anything) from someone it would be under my own terms and conditions as much as their own. I mean to say, if I borrowed something and I damaged/ lost it I would be straight on the phone to the person expressing my genuine regret and letting them know I would resolve the problem ASAP at my cost and time.

I suppose the key is to only lend to people that have similar views on such stuff as yourself. Trouble is you dont find that sort of thing out till it has already gone pear shaped.

Hope it all goes well for you anyway my friend. Hopefully it proves to be a moot point and he offers to get it sorted anyway.

Just wanted you to know your not the only person out there that thinks this way!

(Oh, I NEVER borrow stuff more expensive than I could hope to replace or repair if something happens to go wrong on "my watch" either. Thats another self imposed rule I like to live by.)

Generally, I only lend stuff to people who I know would look after it - and (not by coincidence) these are also the same people that wouldn't dream of handing something back in a worse condition than which it was given to them. Hence no need to declare the "universal rules of borrowing" up front - I would't insult a mate like that.

It doesn't sound like you/we have any idea how this guy is going to handle this....... as long as he hands it back with a "I'm really sorry - tell me how much the bill is going to be" I don't see a problem.

If he doesn't, then it's a simple "oh dear that seems to have broken - I'll let you know how much a new one is" should let the guy know what your expectation is.

Seems like some people on here would have you contacting solicitors before you've even spoken to the bloke

The point I am trying to make, and you seem to be missing, is that you might have no problem and whatever repairs needed might already have been carried out. If not, he might cover whatever cost needed to bring it to the condition it was when you lent it.
The what if scenario and the guys an arse comments are currently unjustified.

It sounds(?) like he isnt a hobby cyclist. I wouldnt lend any £££ kit to any non-equal enthusiast.

How can you expect proper correction of situation?

What if I ask a mate if he can lend me a camera for a school event etc and he lends me a £2,000 digital camera? I break it and think its probably a £300 jobbie. If I knew it was 2k I'd be soooo over careful it'd be unreal.

Lend anyone a bike and theres a high chance they would put a scratch on it.

Especially a mountain bike. Would you ask a mate for £300 for a new csu due to a stanchion minor scratch?

The msg from me? If hes going to be aware of the true value, then you should have made it clear at the start. As it stands you should take some sort of hit on the chin. Brnd it/mend it is obvious on a car. On something specialist you need to forewarn.

Any damaged (beyond cosmetic) parts I'd expect replaced, scratches would be a different issue though, I'd be pissed off but I would see that as a risk when loaning it (which is why I wouldn't have in the first place to someone that's just a work colleague...), I wouldn't expect a paint respray.

My friends and I went for a weekend away and I was asked if I could provide bikes for everyone, as it happened, i couldn't as I didn't have the right sizes for all, so we decided hiring was fairer to everyone.

Having seen how my friends handled the bikes, I'm SO glad they didn't borrow mine. Whenever we came to a rest stop, the bikes were slammed up against one another with a horrible clash and clatter, two ended up in a hedge, one on its side going down the road...

Ultimately, if people have never owned nice bikes, they're simply not aware of the value and treat them like they did when they were children.

We, on STW, often keep our bikes like cars, well maintained and well treated, used, but certainly not abused.

I borrowed a mates Yamaha R1 last week at Mallory. It was made clear that if I destroyed it I was handing over £8000+

I was perfectly fine with this. Although really really glad I never crashed it!

Someone borrowed my road bike once. Had obviously turned it upside down to put wheels on. Scratched the top of my 1 year old STI's. I was bloody livid.

[b]Loan Bike Returned Damaged [/b]

Erm...

I've not got the bike yet but it may even be possible that the left hand 105 shifter has been over shifted and is now broken as well.

We don't even know if there's anything to fix! OP talked about cosmetics and "possibly" the shifter. But then, this thread is mostly about assumptions isn't it.

This is, however, STW 😉

I agree though, until you pick the bike up and discuss it in person this is a none-issue.

This is, however, STW 😉

As for constructive comments, here's one:

Get a grip, be a grown-up, and wait and see what tomorrow brings when you actually go to collect the bike!

Are there really [i]that[/i] many people that don't know the value of a nice bike? I'm sure some people are completely clueless, but most people would know to within +/- 50% of the value, I'd have thought?

I wouldn't lend out an expensive bike except to a very good friend. Even the drivetrain / wheels / tyres wear and tear would probably cost £20/ride on a £2000+ bike. So the lender is losing out even if nothing gets damaged / broken. If I borrowed a nice bike, I'd be conscious of that and at least bung the lender a bottle of wine or something. If you break it though that's different again - It gets fixed.

[i]Are there really that many people that don't know the value of a nice bike? I'm sure some people are completely clueless, but most people would know to within +/- 50% of the value, I'd have thought?[/i]

Don't be daft, that's like saying I should know what a fishing rod is worth - or my wife's handbag.

Most folk would be amazed that you can pay +£250 for a (dropper) seat-post, when they consider £250 is an expensive bike.

Errm.....if you'd bothered to read, it has been confirmed that at least [i]some[/i] damage has been incurred and I'm [i]"not going to like it"[/i].
You appear to be struggling with comprehension so please allow me to remind you. My original and only real question was: Is it widely accepted that you return something in at least as good condition as it was loaned or does it need to be agreed in advance?
As for getting a grip and growing up? Well, this is the Internet and a message board where people seem to type anything they like when they probably wouldn't be as anything like as rude in person seems to be the way of it.

B r I'm amazed we see a £250 dropper as 'normal'. I think over time it becomes normalised but then I was talking to two 70+ ramblers and one told me he paid £400 for a roadbike 40(?) years ago.

I now think 1.5k+ frames is ridiculous regardless of material.

Superficial: is your bike made of cheese that it costs you £20 in wear and tear PER RIDE...????

Even the drivetrain / wheels / tyres wear and tear would probably cost £20/ride on a £2000+ bike.

superficial, you're taking the piss. I have a £2k road bike, and after 100 rides at the worst I might expect to need to replace the tyres and the chain (in reality I've done far more rides than that on it on the original chain). So that's maybe £1 a ride.

Superficial: is your bike made of cheese that it costs you £20 in wear and tear PER RIDE...????

Do you ride on hot lava under the sea?

*Shrugs* Peak district?

New chains +/- cassettes (I'm running XX1...)
Tyres (3C Maxxis don't last forever and they're not cheap)
Stans sealant / tubes
Grips
Shock bushings / bearings etc
General bits and bobs that need fixing / replacing over time

Add up your yearly expenditure on bike parts (Excluding new bikes) and divide by the number of rides. You can factor in frame scuffs etc and depreciation if you like. I don't think £20 is too far off the mark. Perhaps road bikes are a bit cheaper to run. My point was that there is a quantifiable cost to lending your bike out, as well as the risk factor. Maybe my (completely plucked out of thin air) estimates are out by a few quids, but the point remains.

Maybe my (completely plucked out of thin air) estimates are out by a few quids