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Thanks. I’ve had good long looks at the Trek DS range. Fx also. That bikes looks good, but I’d rather avoid the 650b route.
That Marin comes in white or blue, depending on model. The poopy brown is grim.
Some very similar models from Sonder, Cube (Race SL?), Whyte, Giant (Toughroad?), BMC, Specialized (Diverge flat bar?), Kona Dew or Unit (geared one), Norco Search, Salsa Journeyer, and more....
OP, I think you want a fast hardtail. But it has to be 'fast' - light with XC geometry and fast rolling tyres, otherwise it won't be what you're looking for. That kind of bike is expensive though, especially if it has a light 100/120mm fork (my preference would be suspension rather than rigid). So, budget might influence your decision - you'd probably get a gravel bike for cheaper.
No problem.
im actually on my third gravel bike but the first with 700c wheels. The first got stolen after a few months. It was very upright and bike packing style.
The next one I stuck with 650b but went more road type geometry. Nice bike but I ended up selling it as I found I’d usually be doing a road ride or a more techy MTB ride.
I then had a deal come along for a 700c gravel bike that kind of fitted in between my previous two. A lovely bike but 6 months on I’m finding I’m back to either road or MTB and it is getting little use 😬
I guess so much depends on where you ride and what you want from any given ride/bike etc
Two things that made me sell my Tempest and buy a Scott Scale were hard packed bridalways with horse hoof marks that gave me an instant headache when I rode them, and I never felt that confident on the downhill techy sections on the drop bars. That’s just me but I definitely prefer the HT overall.
Yes it's heavily geography dependent. However, I think the biggest limiting factor is rubber, so get a GB with reasonably wide rims and that can handle 50c, and you should be covered for most things I reckon. You can fit a big cassette (if GRX) or flared bars if you want, for little expense, but you can also fit 32C if you want to do mostly road. Personally, if I didn't have my Salsa and I were shopping now I'd probably get such a thing and walk the occasional bit of tech that I couldn't do. But when I was buying in 2015 most gravel bikes had tiddly tyres.
Agree re hoofmarks and also tractor tyre marks. They shouldn't slow you down but they really do, especially when it's dry. The sportive I did in the Cotswolds was on paper the easiest off-roading available but I was glad of big fat tyres at times.
But there’s something really positive and solid feeling about a rigid MTB
I can relate to this, as though I don’t have a fully rigid bike, there’s still a unique magic to riding my hard tail vs the FS.
Two things that made me sell my Tempest and buy a Scott Scale were hard packed bridalways with horse hoof marks that gave me an instant headache when I rode them
I can also relate to this, but for me it was the deep rutted bridleway on my (front suspension) hardtail struggling to make any progress out of the saddle when a bloke on an FS calmly sailed past pedalling gently with a cheery “hello”! The search for the right FS began then, and I think I’ve got it right with a short travel lightweight jobby.
legometeorology has hit the nail on the head.
...light with XC geometry and fast rolling tyres, otherwise it won’t be what you’re looking for. That kind of bike is expensive though, especially if it has a light 100/120mm fork (my preference would be suspension rather than rigid). So, budget might influence your decision – you’d probably get a gravel bike for cheaper.
Dunno about that, Personally I'd start with this:
Vitus rapide 29 VR
£900 and you get a decent Chassis with a SID SL fork and good enough Deore parts.
I'd be inclined to spend the rest of the summer just riding it as it comes, maybe swap bars/stem and possibly try different tyres, perhaps a dropper(?) But that's a handy looking HT out of the box at a sensible price.
When winter rolls round and you can decide if you want to buy posh wheels and/or a fancier drivetrain, but that to me looks like an affordable XC bike that could meet the OPs apparent needs without breaking the bank...
Dunno about that, Personally I’d start with this:
Vitus rapide 29 VR£900 and you get a decent Chassis with a SID SL fork and good enough Deore parts.
Blimey yeah, that'd do it. I know whichever I went for I'd have a bit of buyers remorse, but that would certainly fit the HT bill, will have to have a look at the CTW policy...
Don't think CRC/Wiggle support C2W schemes if that's the way you're thinking of purchasing.
"MTBs are more fun than Gravel bikes"
On the rough and playful stuff maybe, but what about all the fire road and smoother paths? Gravel is nippier, more sprightly and faster in those places. It's a compromise and I'm quite happy to slow up (just a little bit) whilst I clatter through the odd rougher section on shit gravel bike!
"Don't understand why anyone would have a rigid MTB"
Because they are a joy to ride, the missing weight makes them much more peppy, they feel very direct.
I have a hardtail...I only really ride it if I'm heading to just ride exclusively singletrack or a trip to somewhere that's very very rocky. It's not a particularly high spec but it feels like an anchored ship compared to the other two bikes! I'm sure many would think it's great, it probably is, just not compared to a rigid bike. I should probably just put rigid forks on it!
I could have had a more spendier rigid bike and it may have been more capable and more fun. Maybe not a fair comparison.
Don't necessarily need to get spendy for a rigid bike. My rigid mtb is a BX-HT-01 alu frame for something like £150 (on offer) from CRC a few years ago. It's meant for 130mm sus forks so not a typical rigid frame geo, hence choosing a 29er A2C rigid fork. The Carbon Cycles Exotic forks probably the 2nd most expensive component after the frame. 27.5" wheels (Planet-X on offer) were from another build (for which I decided better wheels were called for). Killed the rear wheel and replaced with fairly cheap (~£120 IIRC) custom built QR rear from CRC before they stopped that game. 2nd hand tyres from off here. 9 speed drivetrain bars/stem/saddle/seatpost from retired 26". Hex key instead of a dropper. It has a very light front end. There are only two situations where it's not fun - against a headwind along a long straight inclined road (which I usually avoid), and when I try to go too fast down rooty brake-bumped trails (rare I get out to those trails).
Also add Orange Speedwork to the flat bar list.
At the top of the werewolf drop.
I didn't think I wanted an MTB but that Vitus is a very good deal. Guess it proves the over demand has gone out of cycling as I don't think that £500 reduction would have been there a year or so ago. Very nice XC MTB for £900
Guess it proves the over demand has gone out of cycling as I don’t think that £500 reduction would have been there a year or so ago
They're randomly discounting stuff that people might actually want at the moment (see the CRC PSA thread)
It's either due to them trying to clear out old stock, or they're chasing dwindling sales from consumers currently dealing with peaking inflation and interest rates elsewhere, Or wiggle/CRC are going bust...
For me its as soon as you go off road. For sure you can put bigger tyres on your gravel bike but you can also put gravel tyres on your MTB. Even on road I would rather ride with front suspension anyway. Even my utility bike has front suspension.
I have a set of 2.2 fast light MTB tyres and a set of 1.75 gravel tyres for my Shand and fit whichever set is appropriate. The advantages of the gravel bike are low for me and the disadvantages are high
It’s either due to them trying to clear out old stock, or they’re chasing dwindling sales from consumers currently dealing with peaking inflation and interest rates elsewhere, Or wiggle/CRC are going bust…
Or in less words, demand has dropped.
HoffFull Member
Don’t think CRC/Wiggle support C2W schemes if that’s the way you’re thinking of purchasing.
Do they not anymore? I got my last bike on one of the schemes from wiggle, different employer though. Will have to check.
I’ve found a few YouTube vids of people gravel biking over similar parts of the chase so will watch them and see what they think before I rush into anything.
I think I’m veering more towards an XC bike that I can use as a winter trail bike, but I do like the idea of a gravel bike, could even pop to a few CX races in the winter
I thought I wanted a gravel bike for 5 minutes and then came to my senses
One of the reasons being - I don't really like a low front end on an MTB (long legs/short torso) so drops aren't going to be a good choice for me
Also add Orange Speedwork to the flat bar list
Do you have one? Have you ridden one?
I have looked at the Speedwork and thought it seems like the perfect bike for me (apart from the Orange Tax), but I've never had a go on one, never met anyone who has one, never even seen any reviews. I'd love to find out more.
Or in less words, demand has dropped.
Well I suppose the demand is still there, it's the disposable incomes that have dropped 😉
but I do like the idea of a gravel bike, could even pop to a few CX races in the winter
Buy the bike you think you'll get the most use from overall. If you do opt for a HT and find you have a gravel/CX itch still to scratch perhaps opt for a used bike later on?
Used CX bikes seem to be infinitely resellable, just offload it the following September/October when people's minds turn to the coming CX season and you're golden...
@easily no to both unfortunately, I saw it when I was looking for a new bike but never got further than that. I think folk on here may have had them and rated them IIRC
Well I suppose the demand is still there, it’s the disposable incomes that have dropped
Okay, so you don't understand what demand means. I will leave it at that point.
OT but what rigid fork can I buy to try on my hardtail? I'd like it to keep the 150mm equivalent of my boost Lyrics.
Depends what you want out of it I'd say. Personally I find the point where I'm wishing I was on a hardtail arrives pretty much as soon as I get off of something like Cannock fire road gravel and onto anything rougher. If the challenge of doing that stuff on a different bike than a proper MTB appeals to you, and maybe you have to ride a lot of road to get there, then maybe go for a gravel bike.
I got mine as more of an 'all road' bike that I can take off the tarmac sometimes, and I'm more interested in just being out and covering distance in nice places than I am in technical stuff. I also have a lot of road because 99% of the time I'm riding from my front door.
I do love my Camino but if I were in the OP's situation I'd probably be looking at a hardtail 29er.
EDIT just looked at that Vitus - very nice, but I still can't get over how bad Chain Reaction looks these days!
This is my attempt at a gravel bike ( Fortitude race ). Gravel King SK 42's, bar ends inboard of grips for aero on the road, and 32 11-42 gearing. As others have said, it's always a compromise somewhere, for me this set up works on the trails but not really on the roads so have to pick my routes with care. Im really tempted to buy a gravel bike but that would put me at 4 bikes ...
OT but what rigid fork can I buy to try on my hardtail? I’d like it to keep the 150mm equivalent of my boost Lyrics.
Doubtfull such a thing exist. Get axle to crown length with you on the bike with the sus forks and look for the closest a2c matched rigid fork. I went with a 29er fork for my 27.5 hardtail.
@claudie that looks like it would be quick*, especially if it had a bigger chain ring, will it take a 36 for example? I've got a 36 (aliexpress special) on the front of my hardtail probably 34 biggest at back, but no steep hills.
* I guess it depends what you're coming from - from a road bike it won't feel quick, but from a hardtail or full sus it should.
@sirromj I think you have really hit it on the head with 'it depends what you're coming from'. I compare it to a road bike on the road and a MTB on the trails and it is neither! I really need to change my perspective! But im so tempted to get a Crux!
Ive gone from a 34 to a 32 to cope with steep punchy off road climbs at the expense of road speed - another compromise but climbing is a bigger deal for me than road speed ( just )
Okay, so you don’t understand what demand means. I will leave it at that point.
I did a marketing module about 25 years ago. IIRC "Demand" in that context refered to consumer's desire to buy products and/or services, but it was separated from their means to pay from it as that was used as a tool for market segmentation and sales forecasting... Lots of people desire MTBs, it's their means that vary.
I probably didn't pay enough attention as it was only prescribed to us knuckle dragging engineering students to try and give us an appreciation of the basis on which the boys and girls in suits and nicer haircuts would come up with their requirements.
If my terminology and your terminology don't align I'm sorry...
I think in economics demand means how many people are trying to buy a thing. If you want it but can't afford it you aren't going to have an effect on supply and hence production so you don't matter! Unless you start saving up and stop spending on other stuff but that's a different system model...
Higher cost of living suppresses demand (in economics terms) because people spent buying. But I'm sure most still desire the stuff on a personal level
I've been musing on this pretty much constantly for the last couple of weeks, riding my cheapo hybrid across the chase regularly including a(n uphill) section of the Monkey, which was 'ok'
I've found 700x40 tyres acceptable if not comfortable, but would prefer a bit more cush so I've been looking at the more extreme gravel bike, which seem to be expensive (my budget is around £1500) and limited availability on c2w schemes leaving me I think with a choice of either Sonder Camino Apex spec or a Ribble CGR bout would have to go Tiagra spec which has cable brakes. I'm erring towards the Camino probably in 650b flavour so I can have 47c tyres and still put guards on it.
Then yesterday I was reading Gravel v XC bikes and stumbled across the Canyon Exceed CF 4 for £1200odd quid, available on C2W, old school XC geo which is fine, because it's not really for mountain biking, although would be an option in the winter for a bit of local riding. Comparing the geometry charts there's very little difference between the Exceed and the Camino so I'm thinking maybe the XC bike might be a good idea, for a bit more versatility, maybe with some kind of bikepacking bars instead of pure flat. With the geo being so similar I could always stick some drops on one day I suppose.
The only sticking point in my head is the mudguards, but I suppose I could go the mudhugger route?
Any input from the hive mind would be appreciated as always
I’m a big fan of the Hardtail as a gravel bike approach. I have a Scott scale 925 that I paid £1500 for. It’s absolutely awesome for metric century gravel rides. Running 50mm cinturato Ms. I lock out the fork 90% of the time but it’s great to have it when I need it for the rooty descents. It’s about 2kmp/h slower over 100km ride than my Open Up but I feel far fresher when I get home. I’d go for it. If I had to choose to keep only one of those bikes it would be an agonising choice even though the Open is itself awesome and 3x the cost of the scale
and I say this as an early adopter of drop-bar off-road bikes - my first gravel bike was a surly cross check with rim brakes and bar end shifters.
I’m erring towards the Camino probably in 650b flavour so I can have 47c tyres
I have 650 47's on my Topstone Lefty. It has replaced my HT entirely and with 30mm travel each end works ideally for my needs. I do have a full suss light ebike (Spesh Levo SL) for proper MTB stuff 🙂
The Topstone rides well on the road with the front locked out, but if I am with other riders the smaller wheels definitely work against me, on road stuff. Off road and anything more than smooth gravel and it comes into it's own though.
I do have a fast gravel bike too..... a Diverge Expert, which has the Futureshock with 200mm front end cushioning.
If you're basically going for off-road routes then the HT will be far better suited in the UK. Gravel bike is great if you're going on road(ish) rides that have the odd rough spot (maybe to make a nice loop) but most off road is basically too rough to do much than pick your way slowly.
Sounds like the HT would be better for you, based on what you've written. Of course if you're happy riding rigid drop bars on singletrack that's fine too, it's fun in its own way.
a Diverge Expert, which has the Futureshock with 200mm front end cushioning.
Are you sure? 😉
I think in economics demand means how many people are trying to buy a thing. If you want it but can’t afford it you aren’t going to have an effect on supply and hence production so you don’t matter! Unless you start saving up and stop spending on other stuff but that’s a different system model…
In the supply and demand model demand is a curve.
There's 1 person at one end who really wants the thing and will pay a high amount to get it. There's lots of people who will have it if it cost's almost nothing.
Supply does the opposite, there's 1 factory that can supply you with the item cheaply, but once you've exhausted their capacity you have to go to the second cheapest, third etc, and the cost goes UP (this is completely the opposite of the 'economy of scale' that people confuse with supply and demand. A good example most people can grasp is agriculture. There's one farm somewhere that has fertile soil, large fields and good weather so could supply you with cheap wheat. But you need 100 farms worth, so the price ends up being set by the 100th farm (which makes a small profit) while the first farm makes a large one. You can also put other factors into it like marketing, it costs you incrementally more and more to make each sale for example.
Plot your supply and demand curves on the same graph and where they cross gives you the price in a perfect market and the maximum profit (because making one more would cost you more, but the selling price would be slightly less than the cost of making it)
I probably didn’t pay enough attention as it was only prescribed to us knuckle dragging engineering students to try and give us an appreciation of the basis on which the boys and girls in suits and nicer haircuts would come up with their requirements.
Sounds like we've sat through the same course 🤣
Looking at HTs has reminded my of my old Vitus Sentier that I loved but had to sell because it crippled my back on longer harder rides like Afan, Maybe I should just forget about road and gravel and get a trail hardtail to compliment my full suss 🤔
Plenty of choice in budget too
If you’re basically going for off-road routes then the HT will be far better suited in the UK. Gravel bike is great if you’re going on road(ish) rides that have the odd rough spot (maybe to make a nice loop) but most off road is basically too rough to do much than pick your way slowly.
I'd really like to get a proper modern XC bike to try back to back. I think in my head the gravel bike is faster because it's averaging 13+ mph usually whereas my MTB's average 9ish. But some of that is terrain, and some is heavy forks, wheels and tyres. I could probably shed 2,5kg swapping to SID's, 2" XC tyres and XC wheels, then ride the same terrain and there probably isn't a huge amount in it.
Looking at HTs has reminded my of my old Vitus Sentier that I loved but had to sell because it crippled my back on longer harder rides like Afan, Maybe I should just forget about road and gravel and get a trail hardtail to compliment my full suss 🤔
Plenty of choice in budget too
Sounds like you're trying to squeeze three use cases into 2 bikes.
A Gravel bike isn't a good road bike or a good XC bike.
A good XC bike isn't a good trail bike (beyond a point).
I can definitely see a good argument for a road bike, an XC bike and a trail FS. That's every surface covered with minimal compromise.
I’m thinking maybe the XC bike might be a good idea, for a bit more versatility, maybe with some kind of bikepacking bars instead of pure flat.
ime there's not a lot in it on a 50-50 of-road route between an average chunky 650B gravel bike and a rigid 29er on 2.3 XC race tyres esp if you have some sort of alt bars with adaptable grip positions. The 29er should be a lot more fun off-road though and could take a sus fork and bigger tyres to be more adaptable. And the 29er will beat you up far less if the ride is a longer one - Ridgeway e2e etc. The chunky gravel bike feels better on the lanes and for road bikepacking/touring but if you're not a roadie to some extent that's not much of a selling point.
The likely reason all-terrain jack-of-all-trades rigid 29ers aren't popular is so few riders want an almost bikepacking-specific MTB or do the mixed lanes and byways sort of routes that they work so well on, yet UK gravel riding is pretty much that and a lot of riders use gravel bikes for bikepacking in places where they seem really underbiked (or at least undertyred).
A Gravel bike isn’t a good road bike or a good XC bike.
A gravel bike isn't a good road-race bike but it can make an excellent general road-riding bike?
I can definitely see a good argument for a road bike, an XC bike and a trail FS. That’s every surface covered with minimal compromise.
Except that you need to add in a gravel bike for those rides that don't have enough off-road for the XC bike, and a longer travel MTB for those rides on bigger, steeper terrain, and a load carrying touring style bike for the one ride a year where you carry a pair of spare shoes. And everyone has a freak bike that they want but have no real use for - for me at the moment it's a Trek 1120. And then you'll choose a bike based on what you feel like riding, or who you're riding with, not on which bike is most suitable. 😀
I've been pondering this for a long time, and ended up with three bikes... I toyed with selling my full sus MTB, but it's not worth selling really, and I'll be glad of it on the odd occasion I want to do 'proper' off road rides. I also have a gravel bike with 40mm tyres (could go a fraction bigger) unflared bars, I like it for the rough AF back lanes and forest/bridleway excursions, it's surprisingly capable. I'm not a road rider and avoid main roads like the plague, but do like a local bimble on quiet lanes.
I did consider a drop bar mtb/big clearance gravel bike in place of my current gravel bike, but I don't think we have enough of the 'gravel' type roads and terrain in the UK/around me to warrant going for something like that, the off road soon becomes more than I want to ride on drops, and they're surely no faster on road than a rigid mtb.
So to that end, I'm building a rigid 29er, and will probably add some weird shaped bars at some point, as I do like the options for hand position that drops provide. I will also try it on a mixed terrain ride with my mate on his gravel bike, and if I'm not finding it hard to keep up, possibly/probably flog the gravel bike.
Ultimately, all bikes are a compromise if you intend to ride mixed terrain, so I guess you have to decide what your priority is/what will be least compromised most of the time.
Except that you need to add in a gravel bike for those rides that don’t have enough off-road for the XC bike, and a longer travel MTB for those rides on bigger, steeper terrain, and a load carrying touring style bike for the one ride a year where you carry a pair of spare shoes. And everyone has a freak bike that they want but have no real use for – for me at the moment it’s a Trek 1120. And then you’ll choose a bike based on what you feel like riding, or who you’re riding with, not on which bike is most suitable. 😀
Obviously N+1 always applies 😉
But I'd still argue that a 13-150mm FS can be ridden down any DH/Enduro track at fun, just not at race speeds.
And an XC bike can do a gravel ride at fun, but not race speeds.
And a road bike's a road bike.
Dunno about mixed rides, I tend to do one or the other from my door. What if I want to ride the DH tracks 10 road miles away? Evil Chamois Hagger? Or just ride the appropriate bike for the trails and accept that the road section is just at cruising pace?
A gravel bike isn’t a good road-race bike but it can make an excellent general road-riding bike?
Then (unless you are seriously fit compared to your group-mates) you just end up down a rabbit hole of needing multiple wheelsets, gearing etc. I've used my gravel bike for slower group rides to level the field a bit. But for most people road bikes still mean clubruns and chain gangs, which usually means a degree of efficiency is needed. Even if my gravel bike is only 0.5mph slower with slicks, trying to hold 0.5mph faster than I comfortably can for 60miles is really hard work!
But for most people road bikes still mean clubruns and chain gangs,
Do you think? I rarely see club runs or chain gang out on the roads and I'm out most sunday mornings, just see clubs or groups doing a moderate pace where the difference between road and road-ish gravel bike would make little odds. I do see loads of people on road race bikes just riding solo or small groups on the quiet roads.
Either way, if you're a club roadie, sure buy a road race style bike. But for the rest of us I think a gravel bike on good road-capable tyres ('all road' in the mags these days) can be a more versatile, comfortable option that has advantages where the roads are bad.
Even if my gravel bike is only 0.5mph slower with slicks, trying to hold 0.5mph faster than I comfortably can for 60miles is really hard work!
It's only harder for a while, until you get fitter : )