Forum menu
Define better?
I don't think there's a lot in it TBH.
The flipside of a boring mountain bike trail is its terrifying on a gravel bike, fun is the wrong word.
e.g. the last big gravel ride I did was the western portion of the ridgeway ~100km, the group was split between gravel bikes, CX bikes and two Scott Geniuses (an old 26" one and a brand new one). The range in speed was no more than the range in fitness so fit people on MTB's had no problem being up front and the unfit on gravel bikes got dropped.
It definitely made some rough sections a challenge to clean.
It also made some seemingly innocuous descents a bit dicey, drainage bars on straight sections that you'd pump and launch off on the MTB become a nightmarish feature that you convince yourself will collapse your wheel and fork if you mistime the next bunnyhop with your knackered 100km legs as you hurtle over them at 30mph.
I still enjoy it, but I think it's mostly the group riding rather than the bike. On my own I tend to either take the MTB or Road bike and ride somewhere suitable. They work well as a tool for group rides as they seem to encourage less faffing, longer rides and less "technical faff" too, the aim is to ride a long-ish distance, so if someone isn't feeling upto a feature they tend to do a CX dismount and run it rather than everyone slow down.
i built up a plus tyres rigid MTB (built off a HC HT frame) its also singlespeed - and it rips. Basically like a big BMX. Its probably my favourite bike for the local easy xc trails. just so much fun. i had the same bike built with gears and front suspension and i basically never rode it. the plus tyres actually work well for rigid as you get that little bit of extra cushion but you cant get lairy enough to feel the tyre squirm. or if you can you realise you are on a rigid bike and the the squirm is the least of your worries - haha. its nice and comfy to ride on an south downs epic ride too.
i wouldnt want to ride rigid without a fatter tyre though. i see people ridign rigid on 2.0 tyres and pinging off stuff and getting rattled and bashed about. i dont see teh appeal. i`m in it for fun not physical and mental endurance.
I know it's a cliché, but there's always truth behind a cliché so put away the flaming torches, but gravel biking is basically what we used to call mountain biking in the 90s. So, I'd rather have what we/I had on the 90s, namely a light, skinny-tubed, rigid-forked, flat barred with barends, hardtail, but with modern accoutrements like disc brakes, fatter tubeless tyres, 1x drivetrain etc.
So, I’d rather have what we/I had on the 90's
Without wanting to kick over the wasp's nest, those bikes were shit*, and no amount of modern tech is going to change that frankly. I also started in the 1990 and I was always just a bit disappointed to discover than those bikes were really only good enough for bridleways and the very gentlest of "tech" Now I've a bike that I can actually ride anywhere, and I don't have to spend money and the following weekend repairing it. I reckon I've done my time on bridleways, and I'm owed some fun.
*nostalgia's a powerful thing, just becasue you rode in Wales that day when it was sunny and you needed a belt for your 30" jeans, doesn't mean that bike was any good, it was just that you were 22
Im spoilt for choice:
Adventure Ebike, on tough road tyres - used for commute, gravel paths etc, heavy, boring, not particularly fast
Gravel bike, 40mm fork and dropper, Fast everywhere, until you start hitting stuff that can break wheels. Will ride it if any distance is required, any sections of road, fast loops on blue trails, but its knackering as you do still have to be active over rough stuff. Wouldn't tackle anything super steep on loose like i do below, the tyres won't give me the grip i need to keep it under control.
130mm hardtail, 2 sets of wheels and tyres, xc and trail/enduro - still predominately used at trail centres, wouldn't really consider riding it to and from anywhere, except if I'm riding with my nipper. Will take it up and down anything. A long ride 20 miles plus is just not that much fun on flat bars.
135/160mm full sus, will ride anywhere as above, in fact i alternate, the exception being if i want to do something specific, like jumping practice on the full sus, or i want the "safest" bike
if i had to only have one bike, it would be the 40mm gravel bike, i can ride it over 50% of my riding, to work, epic distance and lighter trails. i had a flat bar gravel bike before this, but this is still better in my opinion. If i wasn't interested in any massive rides or covering much road, id have the hardtail
those bikes were really only good enough for bridleways and the very gentlest of “tech”
Indeed, or 'gravel riding' as it's now known.
I reckon I’ve done my time on bridleways, and I’m owed some fun.
Fair enough, you head off into the hills on your modern MTB and have a blast, all power to your elbow. I'll do the same, when that's what I fancy doing. Sometimes though, I quite like a bit of a bimble around bridleways, towpaths and farm/forest tracks and, for me, a 'modernised but old school' MTB would be the thing to do it on
Get a Whippet. Mine runs anything from 38 c to 2.8 .
All the bike you could need.
i wouldnt ride that whippet on my local trails. i mean you could, and people probably do, but you`d get rattled to death above walking pace. needs a proper MTB tyre i recon. comfort is king.
I think that if you liked road biking, a gravel bike will be just the ticket for you.
Keep your MTB for the MTBing and the gravel bike for the fire roads, back lanes, towpaths and a bit of singletrack.
Tricky one. I've got two road bikes, full FS, old rigid MTB (geared up for the commute) and a CX bike I recently got.
CX/gravel are very capable, but you soon realise it's not a MTB when the going get's tough ! You won't be smashing through stuff the same.
If it's one bike, then I'd go for a fast XC MTB
I had a gravel bike with a set of 650b wheels with 47mm WTB Byways and a set of 700c wheels with 40mm MSC Gravel, a Vitus CRS2, what it was best at was smooth bridleways and fire roads, it was mildly entreating on non rooty single track and it was OK on the road, it was very comfortable over long distances / durations and looked nice. It was OK on the road, but a bit too beard & sandals relaxed for me to ever replace a proper road bike. What it was best at was when I fitted 32mm CX tyres to it and used it as a 2nd bike for a season of CX racing.
I swapped it for a Scott Scale 910 the only weighs a bit, like less than a kilo more at 10.3kg , is miles faster off road, and not much slower on it. Equally as comfortable as the gravel bike, even with a dropper as opposed to the svelte carbon post on the gravel bike.
We're doing 80 miles of the Pennine Bridleway in a couple of weeks over two days, most of us opting for our full suspension MTB's with lightweight tyres (one has a hard tail). We've all got road bikes, and cross/gravel bikes, but two days of crashing about on rocks = MTB.
those bikes were really only good enough for bridleways and the very gentlest of “tech”
My jaunts around Helvellyn, High Street, Borrowdale Bash, Skiddaw and more in the late '80s and '90s begs to differ. Yes we were slower, yes my arms and hands were battered, but it were right fun....
I do think modern geometry, disc brakes and tyres can massively alter what a rigid bike rides like - the fundamental problem of '80s and '90s bikes was roadie inspired geometry, crap brakes and crap tyres.
@prawny what do you love about road? If its about long rides, loads of miles and covering ground at speed then a gravel bike is what your after to take that style of riding onto forestry tracks and easy singletrack. If your road riding is more the fast group style riding smash up every hill and sprint to every speed limit sign then a XC HT mtb to thrash around the singletrack might be more your thing?
For me its not just terrain that makes me choose HT over Gravel bike, its the speed. Once I'm cruising in the low 20s Km/h the additional wind resistance riding upright on flat bars is just a drag.
What size tyres and pressures were you running on your Voodoo Hyrbrid? The rougher and looser the gravel the bigger tyres and lower pressures you want to run. There are some tracks near me that are boneshaking even on 2.2" tyres at 20psi, but also gravel that's so smooth and compacted I've ridden it on 28mm slicks at 60psi.
Gravel bikes are road bikes with exploration options. MTBs are offroad bikes.
Yes, a race hardtail on semi-slicks can be as fast as a gravel bike on road, but only for a very limited time/distance. You’ll quickly tire.
As others have said, its about what you want. Id rather slog 50km on road to do 30km of fun offroad on a hardtail, than have an easier 50km using a gravel bike, but lose the fun on the offroad.
I used to do quite a lot of endurance riding, ridgeway, SDW, Spain Coast to Coast Off-Road etc, countless long distance routes throug France....I've completed this on all sorts of bikes. My current main bike is a Gravel Bike, configured pretty light for a ti gravel bike.
Lightweight hardtail would be my preferred bike for the type of riding the OP mentions. I would have two different wheels sets though. One with "fast summer tyres" and one with proper grippy tyres.
My hardtail was the fastest bike for the long XC routes I used to do. Not only the fastest, but the most fun and the comfiest. Even 45mm tyres on a gravel bike do not compensate when things get rocky and rooty.
What I have noticed is that the lightweight hardtails are not really mainstream anymore. They're also incredibly expensive! NickC's does look nice. I used to have a Trek ProCaliber, great bike - but I don't recall paying anywhere near the current price is. I also managed to get hold of a set of second hand RS SID SL forks. Really light and perfect for XC terrain.
Taking my gravel bike off road, so trail centre off-road, I notice the steep angles of the bike, the difficulty in getting my backside over the rear tyre on descents, having to really focus on getting my weight back to stop the OTB on anything steep downhill. Steep technical rocky uphills are a challenge, pick a line and hope you don't get pinged off it. While its fun, its not the same as being on a fast mountain bike, yes a 100/120 mm fork and a 29er 2.3 tyre still get pinged, but nowhere near the same level as a 45mm tyre with no suspension. While a dropper on a gravel bike would be amazing, I'm still not convinced. Rooty rocky downhill, I'd be worried about the front washing out if all the weight is at the back. Maybe its just the angles on mine, but it doesn't instill confidence on anything that I would consider a genuine mountain bike terrain.
But in my mind its kind of like....I get my fun out of going fast downhill. I don't really get any fun from a climb. So I'm more than happy going up a climb slower on my mountain bike just for the reward of a fun downhill segment.
So if I was in the market for a new bike, I'd be chatting to NickC above about his frame. Maybe get some lightweight carbon wheels and some standard wheels.
the fundamental problem of ’80s and ’90s bikes was roadie inspired geometry, crap brakes and crap tyres.
Yeah, I agree, and modern gravel bikes have better geometry than 90s MTBs, many/most can take bigger tyres than 90s MTBs could, and it's pretty much impossible to buy rubbish brakes any more. I don't think having drops adds anything though.
Basically what I want is a flat-barred, bar-ended, gravel bike.
Unless maximum speed on road sections is the priority I'd go xc race type bike. I have a very nice fast light gravel bike which is great for the poor road surfaces we have where I live and it's a personal opinion but that's about it. With hindsight a xc race bike is the way I would go now for what I perceived gravel riding to be, but I come from a mountain bike background, not road.
Basically what I want is a flat-barred, bar-ended, gravel bike.
Mrs_oab bought the white coloured Giant CX bike. Quickly discovered that small hands and drop bars do not match and so we flat-barred it. A really nice, fast on road, 3x9 hybrid.
In front is her new Marin DSX which she finds it almost as fast, much more comfy on potholed roads and gravel tracks, she even took it on mild singletrack yesterday. The newer geometry of the Marin, even though it is still relatively conservative, really helps give stability and no toe overlap.
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52670414000_8adf345726_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52670414000_8adf345726_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2ofiD5d ]Marin DSX for Jo[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/ ]Matt[/url], on Flickr
Now with bar ends and perfect for road - track - gentle single track - track 60km ride last week to get ice cream...
In front is her new Marin DSX
Ooh, a Marin would take me full circle back to that 90s MTB I had
I like:
https://www.marinbikes.com/gb/bikes/2023-dsx-2
Basically what I want is a flat-barred, bar-ended, gravel bike.
The really great thing now (as opposed to the 1990's) is that 1. those bikes exist, and 2. they're really good.
but it were right fun….
Oh you're spot on it was massive fun, I had a blast. But every time I get a newer bike I'm amazed at how much more capable they are.
TBH OP if your Hybrid was "terrifying" you'll have to put some pretty chonky tyres on a Gravel bike to make it much of an improved experience, at which point why not just have a HT MTB?
I've split the difference with a basic Rigid 29er as I have a bouncy 29er as well as a Gravel bike.
I prefer to keep the gravel bike on faster rolling 700x40ish tyres so it can munch the miles on and off-road but isn't ever going to be a trails monster and the bouncy bike is fun on trails/drops/jumps but not super efficient.
A good compromise (IMO) would be a sensibly light build, 29er HT with a 100~120mm fork that can cover some ground off-road and put up with the odd rock/root/jump, be fun to ride on singletrack but isnt's a boat anchor and doesn't sap all your energy bouncing suspension and draggy tyres in between...
the fundamental problem of ’80s and ’90s bikes was roadie inspired geometry, crap brakes and crap tyres.
I kind of disagree on the brakes bit, because by the time I want/need better brakes, I probably want to be on my MTB anyway! For the sort of stuff I enjoy on the gravel bike, either the speeds or gradients or surface aren't really high/steep/chundery enough that I care about the brakes, 1 finger braking on mini-Vs still serves me fine. I almost think 'do I need disc brakes' is as good a point at which an HT becomes better than a gravel bike in fact!
As usual with these threads though, lots of examples above of MTBers trying to make gravel bikes MTBs then dismissing them as not being very good for MTBing, or assuming that anything that isn't gnarly singletrack is 'boring' which is a very MBUK era sort of viewpoint 😂
nickcFull Member
Basically what I want is a flat-barred, bar-ended, gravel bike.
The really great thing now (as opposed to the 1990’s) is that 1. those bikes exist, and 2. they’re really good
My father just bought one actually. At 85 he has finally given up MTBing (which he started doing in 1988). He still prefers to be away from traffic so using canal paths and cycle tracks etc
He just got a Trek dual sport 3
1x, hydros, carbon fork, flat bar (he’s added bar ends) and he has swapped the stock tyres for a WTB byway tubeless set up.
What you want there is a rigid MTB aka adventure bike.
+1. My personal compromise as well. With the right size, bars, stem, tyres it is comfortable most places. Will be slower on tarmac than a gravel bike but a better position than a average HT pure mtb, slower on tough mtbing but most ROW / natural stuff anything will be ridable with a good dropper. ITs something I would like to build a more modern version of as mine is a compromise from old bits.
but gravel biking is basically what we used to call mountain biking in the 90s
It might be what you used to call it, but not me. Our riding in the 90s was either whipping around the forest on singletrack as fast as we could, whilst searching out the steepest lines, or it was epic rides on big rocky mountains in Wales. We just descended far far slower than we would now. You could do those rides on gravel bikes now but you need decent rubber. We would use 2.0s but back then I was 72kg, and even then I had 45psi in the tyres and pinch punctured a lot.
As for 90s bikes being shit - I broadly agree with what's being said. They were too short, my weight was always over the front wheel too much which was great for climbing but terrible on descents. Cornering was purely an exercise in stopping the front wheel washing out - that was the entire skill. The front would wash out first and dump you on your face. These days, you just lean your bike over and stay centred, t weight is balanced nicely, and you drift.
The concept of a 90s bike is fine, but the execution of a modern adventure bike is better. The geometry is better sorted, the wheels are bigger, the brakes work, the tyres are leagues ahead. I built my Salsa to be a 90s bike but better, and it is.
The thing that amuses me about these debates is that people are absolutely sure that MTB geometry evolved and improved up until a certain point in the 90s then stopped getting better. As if there was some apocalypse in which the library of knowledge was burned and we entered a dark age after which no new development was possible. This is clearly absurd. You thought your KHS Montana Pro was awesome then because it was, for the time., but you didn't know any better. Things have moved on though.
Also back then a Nissan Bluebird was a perfectly good family car. But I absolutely would rather have a 2023 Mondeo.
I do all my 'gravel' riding on a rigid 29er. I have 2.
best: Scott Scale, 9kg, full carbon and 1x11 Di2
beater/commuter: On One Bootzipper, steel but with Exotic carbon forks, 1x11 mechanical
They'll do everything a gravel bike can do but descend better, and more fun (to me).
The Bootzipper recently did the Torino-Nice Rally route, fully loaded.
It might be what you used to call it, but not me. Our riding in the 90s was either whipping around the forest on singletrack as fast as we could, whilst searching out the steepest lines, or it was epic rides on big rocky mountains in Wales.
I was visiting my mate in Bristol sometime in the mid-90s, and he introduced me to a friend, 'This is Jon, he rides mountain bikes. Jon, this is <name> he also rides MTBs.' <name> looked at me with disdain and said, 'I'm an extreme MTBer' and walked away.
Was it you? I've waited for decades to get the autograph.
😀
I really don’t understand why anyone wants a rigid MTB. I know there’re arguments about suspension wear, but really? Is that it? 100/120mm forks are now pretty light, can be locked out and allow you to ride more stuff, at higher speeds, with smaller tyres at lower pressures. All for a few hundred grams and a few hundred pounds.
This and 2.4tyres are what makes a MTB MUCH more capable and fun off road than a gravel bike. And also what makes a MTB less fun on gravel. It’s too easy.
I have two bikes: a rigid On-One Whippet, and a Pinnacle Arkose gravel. It’s a bit of a daft combination as I kind of have a road-y mtb and an off road-y road bike. They both suit the kind of riding I like, but the crossover of their capabilities is huge.
I’ve been thinking of selling them and getting a single bike (and maybe a rat for trips to the shops etc). After much thought I reckon I’d want:
straight bars. I occasionally love the drops, but not often enough to make it worthwhile. Also, the drop bars I use have been getting flatter and wider - I think evolution would eventually turn them into straights anyway
700 tyres, with clearance for 45 with mudguards, maybe 50 without
1x gearing. I was hesitant about this, but having used it I like it
The ability to fit guards, racks, etc. They can be added without braze-ons of course, but not so well and you get limited choice
rigid. No dropper. I understand why others need these, but I don’t
Disc brakes definitely
Maybe a second set of wheels so I could quickly switch tyres from smooth to gnarly
Having used SRAM and Shimano I’d go Shimano if all else was equal
I think this would give me maximum fun and versatility in a single bike. If anyone can recommend a bike like this please do
I really don’t understand why anyone wants a rigid MTB.
Have you owned one before Daffy?
Hmmm, that Marin linked earlier might just be what I need. Does it come in any colours other than diarrhoea?
I really don’t understand why anyone wants a rigid MTB. I know there’re arguments about suspension wear, but really? Is that it? 100/120mm forks are now pretty light, can be locked out and allow you to ride more stuff, at higher speeds, with smaller tyres at lower pressures. All for a few hundred grams and a few hundred pounds.
This and 2.4tyres are what makes a MTB MUCH more capable and fun off road than a gravel bike. And also what makes a MTB less fun on gravel. It’s too easy.
It's pretty simple, rigid forks are significantly cheaper to own than even a basic 100mm fork let alone a posh light one which you then go and lock out.
And yeah absolutely stick a wider front tyre on and you get a cushier ride with more grip, applies to any MTB.
As you noted there's no suspension to knacker or need servicing, basically it's keeping a bike mechanically simple to fit in with it's intended use, maintenance and budget. As a counter point the fork on my bouncy bike probably cost double the entire value of my rigid 29er...
It's more capable and comfortable than the Gravel bike, just not as quick over distances, it would be a bit more capable with a suspension fork, but then I'd have another bit of technology to pay for and maintain...
I really don’t understand why anyone wants a rigid MTB. I know there’re arguments about suspension wear, but really? Is that it?
I completely agree. I’m also surprised the category of short travel FS seems to be ignored so far. Ok, the wear argument is stronger here - there is more complexity and cost in maintaining an FS bike. And we’re probably not talking a few hundred pounds, we’re talking a few thousand pounds. But if you’ve got the budget you can get a bike with very little weight penalty that is more comfortable uphill and wayyy more capable down.
On the rigid front, I had a Marin Pine Mountain 1, 3.0 Nobby Nics on it. Now I accept this was a very cheap bike - but it weighed a tonne. It was rubbish at climbing, it was rubbish at descending (relatively speaking). It was OK for long days - but nowhere near as capable as my XC hardtail....but it was more capable than my gravel bike. On any road sections it was a proper slog. I did a few tours, one included the SDW but with a small portion of road, my word that was mind numbingly boring and massively hardwork.
But my XC hardtail was £3k with additional upgrades making it closer to £4k while my rigid bike was £800. So I accept I could have had a more spendier rigid bike and it may have been more capable and more fun. Maybe not a fair comparison.
As @ballsofcottonwool has asked, I think knowing what size tyres your hybrid has is crucial here
If you were running, say, 32mm tubes commuter tyres then it's no wonder you were getting thrown around
I actually feel that gravel vs HT is not the first question to ask here. What size tyres do you want? Do you prefer drops or flat bars? Do want to run suspension?
There's no clean line between mtb and gravel anymore
There are flat bar gravel bikes available that are basically lightish hybrids with big tyres
And there are dropbar mtb's that clear huge tyres, some of which take suspension (e.g. Salsa Cutthroat and Fargo, and Cotic Cascade) and some of which don't (Genesis Vagabond, Pipedream Alice, Kona Sutra)
Then there are a few mtb's that are too long for dropbars, but also not designed for suspension (On One Bootzipper)
https://bikepacking.com/index/drop-bar-mountain-bikes-29er/
I really don’t understand why anyone wants a rigid MTB. I know there’re arguments about suspension wear, but really? Is that it?
I’m also surprised the category of short travel FS seems to be ignored so far.
Fair comments. I'm a big fan of suspension and particularly FS, I have owned FS for years and definitely will continue to do so as long as I am able. But there's something really positive and solid feeling about a rigid MTB. Locked out suspension just isn't the same. Think there is extra flex involved or something. I don't quite know why it feels so good, but my rigid bike is a fantastic place to sit and pedal all day on. Moving around on the bike and standing up on the pedals is so much more satisfying too. And it's not the rest of the bike, because I fitted suspension forks to it with lockout, and whilst it was of course much better on rocky descents it was much less good to ride around on somehow.
I think @legometeorology is right - you can choose if you want big tyres, drop or flat bars and another important factor - MTB gears or not. Although I think the existence of GRX has made that less of an issue as on the gravel sportive I did there seemed to be a lot of bikes with big cassettes and double chainrings twiddling up climbs in similar gears to me on my MTB. But gearing is a factor. And if you want to run a dropper, then a bike with MTB origins is likely to be better.
easilyFree Member
Hmmm, that Marin linked earlier might just be what I need. Does it come in any colours other than diarrhoea
Not quite the same spec but also cheaper, this is what my dad just bought - the colour looks really good in the flesh / paint / light https://www.balfesbikes.co.uk/bikes/hybrid-bikes/trek-dual-sport-3-gen-5-hybrid-bike-2023-in-black-olive__36688
I really don’t understand why anyone wants a rigid MTB
Pretty simple idea to understand. Weight, terrain and reliability. You don't need a sus fork for light terrain.
Bikes called 'hybrids' tend to be quite short and high at the front for a more upright position. I would not like this, others may.
I haven't used my gravel (CX) bike since I built my latest HT a couple of years ago.
Fast rolling tyres and short travel forks with decent Geo just gives me more options. The gravel tracks are all well and good but being a mountain biker at heart but found I just got FOMO on the gravel bike where with my HT I am more likely to dive of the fire road into the undiscovered singletrack that disappears into the bushes and just find it more fun.
prawny
Full Member
I’ve just seen the Sonder Dial, that looks like it could be a good value option, not a huge range of xc race HTs at that price.Otherwise could do with having a go on a day tyred gravel bike. I’m very happy on drop bars
Sonder run a demo fleet and keep decent stock in their shops, or at least they do in Ilkley.
I've had a carbon road bike, steel gravel, carbon full rigid MTB, HT and FS in the last few years so have a decent idea of what I like.
The road bike went soon after the gravel arrived. Much like you I stopped enjoying roads and the gravel gave me access to as much as I wanted to ride. The rigid MTB came after the gravel but a decent deal on the HT frame, my dislike for Sram SX kit and the fact it was too similar to the GB meant it didn't last long.
I currently own the GB, HT and FS. Struggling to get on with drops still so think the GB is on the way out. With this in mind I used the FS (with sensible tyres) on a couple of my favourite gravel routes and overall it was at least as quick and I PB'd some segments without trying to. My preferred option would be to get ax XC HT to replace the GB, something like my mate's Trek Procalibre but I really need the money for something else atm so will just adapt the HT to replace the GB or run one of my retro fleet with slicks.
In my opinion GB's are ace on stuff like old train lines, grass tracks, canals, etc. Get much more off road than that and even though it can be fun at times some sort of MTB would be my choice. Although, in your case I reckon you probably need to try a GB for a decent amount of time.
hybrids’ tend to be quite short and high
*some* are.
*some* are not.
Same as any bike - peer at the geometry charts.